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Thread: c.i.t.b.2079

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    Unhappy c.i.t.b.2079



    well,i think this should get you all going.i have been in refrigeration now for 46 years and now in the next couple of years will have to hang up my gauges.looking at some of the test questions i will never pass the test so it seems i have been very lucky to get through life without enthalpy charts etc.why should we be told we cannot carry on without this certificate.i served my time with frigidaire and we did not have any courses,apart from electrical at the local tech.unlike today where all the apprentises are taught all this,yet when you watch some of them work they know all the answers but cant do it.so come on,give us oldies a chance.i dont want to retire yet but it looks like i have no choice



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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by doormaster2008 View Post
    well,i think this should get you all going.i have been in refrigeration now for 46 years and now in the next couple of years will have to hang up my gauges.looking at some of the test questions i will never pass the test so it seems i have been very lucky to get through life without enthalpy charts etc.why should we be told we cannot carry on without this certificate.i served my time with frigidaire and we did not have any courses,apart from electrical at the local tech.unlike today where all the apprentises are taught all this,yet when you watch some of them work they know all the answers but cant do it.so come on,give us oldies a chance.i dont want to retire yet but it looks like i have no choice
    I totally agree with you and was discussing this with a colleague today.
    There should be different tests, wether you are a service engineer, a maintenance enigineer or an install engineer.
    At the minute i'm taking my Level 3 and it is all about design, i know as soon as i finish the course i will never use half of the stuff i have been taught and i certainly don't use it in my everyday work.

    I would rather have an extensive course on fault finding and rectifying problems that i come across on VRV's,multis and water chillers etc, something that would be beneficial and i would be able to put it into practice everyday.
    The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.

    Marc

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    lots of people have a total mis-understanding about the f gas qualifictaion, it is not about weather you can do your job well or not its about weather you understand the environmental impact that this industry can have if systems containing these f gases are not operating efficiently and correctly. this is where the fundemental principles of simple refrigeration come in purely to ensure that people at least have a proper understanding of the equipment they are working on.

    I am not saying I agree with this qualification & legislation but I live in the EU so I have no choice

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    i know what you mean Marc,but what really winds me up is when i see plumbers,electricians and car mechanics who have not done the training installing air con and working on car air con. i was talking to an engineer today and he isnt going to do it either.as he said,he hasnt needed it in 40 odd years why now.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    i live in the e u as well and i can see your point but it should be the designers and manufacturers doing this not the poor engineer who is going to have to fork out hundreds of pounds to take the test and then in a couple of years they come up with another test.who is paying for this.not the companies,i,ll bet

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    This will clear out a lot of the older guy's. Some will be missed but if you do a search there was an old guy who'd been in the trade all his life and didn't know how to measure superheat.-should he be exempt too coz he's old as well??

    You yourself admitted you have huge gaps in your knowledge but you don't think you should have to do an exam...Hmm sounds a bit fishy but you want us to make a case for you to be exempt unlike the whole of the rest of the industry -on what grounds would you like us to ask?

    too old,
    unwilling,
    lazy or
    unable

    They say "You never stop learning in this trade" Seems like some do, or some want to...
    Like the dinosaurs who resisted Corgi they soon died out.Maybe it's your time to shuffle off to the elephants' graveyard.

    We have to up our game to benefit the whole industry. Training and 'proper' qualifications are the only fair way. We can't exempt 'Old Jim' coz he's sixty as that isn't fair to 'Bob' the 59 year old and from there on everyone becomes exempt.

    The qualification is also aimed at those plumbers and sparks who do a bit of a/c on the side.You should be rejoicing that they will be driven out of the trade over the next few years. We need all the help we can get with business being so slow.
    Kids know nothing but kids have never known anything. So that's a non starter.
    Stop moaning 'poor me' that isn't going to help none. Pick up a book and start learning I re-did my 2078 last year and I learnt some stuff which I needed to know but didn't know I did!
    -I've been in this over 25 years and I will have to do the test-so you can too!.
    Last edited by multisync; 16-03-2009 at 06:27 PM.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    thanks Multisync at least some body on this forum agrees with me cheers

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    With The exception of Taz

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    With The exception of Taz




    I have been watching this thread with intrest and was goining to keep out of it but now that I've been dragged in I'll comment.

    I have done my 2077 training and assessment, my 2078 training and assessment and my CITB training and assessment. The new qualification is 2079 CITB Fgas and that is the next step for us all. The qualification has developed, as the requirements develop.

    Whether we agree with new legislation regarding refrigerants or not the fact is we have to jump through these hoops that are set us.

    In the long run it can only be for the better of the industry.

    Will it stop the cowboys! maybe not, but the F gas requirements are aimed more at the end user (the customer). It is the customer who now has to account for the refrigerant on his premisses, that means he has to hire qualified engineers to carry out the work.

    This will not be a quick fix, but the engineer has be accountable for years for the refrigerant he uses, the customer now has his responsibility.

    Cheers taz.

    .
    Last edited by taz24; 16-03-2009 at 08:44 PM.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    The thought of yet more exams scares anyone who cares about their job.

    Myself included but i believe any of the guys that contribute on this forum.
    Are already committed enough and interested in what they do,to realise that it is necessary.

    My main problem nowadays is the old time sales guys that say yea we can do that in no time and it will only take a couple of hours for 1 engineer etc.

    These are the guys that are selling us all down the river!
    Not my friends and colleagues in the industry.
    I think Multisync has the right idea.
    Until we start presenting ourselves as ENGINEERS we will be sold as consumables.
    This should be viewed as a good opportunity to get our act together.
    Grizzly

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Good ponits they are guys . after all 2077 / 2078 / 2079 ,is only taken 19 years to get this far it has got to be a good thing for everyone, hopefully the environment

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    This whole thread relies on one thing, are the scientist correct in their assumptions that man has caused this so called global catastrophe, or is it a natural process of earths life cycle.
    Remember the mini ice age which hit the uk in 1684 ( i don't by the way), not many fridge guys about then or industry so why should we believe man has caused a rise in temperatures. Doesn't matter what we do the earth will continue on its natural cycle of events or worse than that the Sun will continue its high temperature burn.
    Recent studies show that an increase in solar output can cause short-term changes in Earth's climate.

    Sod 2079, 2078 they won't save the earth, the first person to invent a stable enclosed environment will, sorry just watched Highlander 3

    Train all you like guys you won't beat us oldies who were born fridge guys, papers say you understand it doesn't mean you can do it.
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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    i have read your comments with great interest,especially multisync,s.all we seem to hear about these days is global warming, so we can give them another test and double the price of refrigerant.i am not saying that engineers should not be trained properly,but it seems to me that it is just another tax on the working man.2079 has to be done by 2011,i will then be 6 months short of retireing and i certainly dont intend to fork out £500 to work for another 6 months,so i will leave it to you multisync and all your followers to save the planet and keep taking the exams because you can bet your sweet life in a few more years they will come up with another money making scam.so im with you Lrac . doormaster

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Does the fgas cover brazing?? surely that would be part of it due to leaks etc

    adam
    ajj

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Hi all, having been absent from the U.K for over six years running a business in Spain and having completed my safe handling of gas course in 2002, what certificates would one need to install air conditioning on a site in the U.K. now.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by airconadam View Post
    Does the fgas cover brazing?? surely that would be part of it due to leaks etc

    adam
    Hi There part of the practical assessment involves brazing which is cut open after it has been fitted commissioned then removed.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by Debonair Spain View Post
    Hi all, having been absent from the U.K for over six years running a business in Spain and having completed my safe handling of gas course in 2002, what certificates would one need to install air conditioning on a site in the U.K. now.
    your safe handling certificate is still valid up until july 2011 but in the mean time you have until this date to get your f gas qualification

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by LRAC View Post
    This whole thread relies on one thing, are the scientist correct in their assumptions that man has caused this so called global catastrophe, or is it a natural process of earths life cycle.
    Remember the mini ice age which hit the uk in 1684 ( i don't by the way), not many fridge guys about then or industry so why should we believe man has caused a rise in temperatures. Doesn't matter what we do the earth will continue on its natural cycle of events or worse than that the Sun will continue its high temperature burn.
    Recent studies show that an increase in solar output can cause short-term changes in Earth's climate.

    Sod 2079, 2078 they won't save the earth, the first person to invent a stable enclosed environment will, sorry just watched Highlander 3

    Train all you like guys you won't beat us oldies who were born fridge guys, papers say you understand it doesn't mean you can do it.

    I agree to some degree what you say, but and there is always a but .

    I,m a bit more pragmatic about it. I was born into a fridgies family and I joke that I was suckled on ammonia .

    I can mend any fridge any where with anything and I can do that because I have learnt over nearly 30 years most of the tricks of the trade.

    Do I belive in global warming? or do I think we are in a world cycle? I don't know and in truth I don't care. If we are contributing to global warming and we curb that contrabution a little then we may slow down the effect of our presence, if we are in a world cycle and we have no effect, so be it. If we are contributing just 1% the climate change and we made small changes, won't that be for the best?

    taz.

    .

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    True cost of 2079????

    What should it cost you?

    I know what it costs in money but the training and assessment is not done quickly.

    Say you do 4 days training and 1 day examination / assessments.

    How much does that cost you or your company?

    even doing the learning by distance learning and then just one days assessment or
    a short course followed by assessment.

    Cheapest is going to be about £300 to £400 and the dearest will be £800 to £1000.

    Is it the cost of the 2079 that people are objecting to or is it the fact that we have
    to prove our caperbilities to sombody else?

    taz.

    .

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Hi all, i personally think that England is taking the lead in the global warming thing but it is coming at a cost to the engineer or the companies who have to pay. I have a very small air con business in Spain and nothing is being done over here to my knowledge about re-claiming of gases or preventing leakage like the CITB 2079. The ammount of units i have found leaks on and repaired is tremendous. The first step towards fighting global warming, is to stop DIY shops and supermarkets selling air conditioning to the general public. The whole of the eu countries have to work together at the same time to move forward otherwise what is the point in implementing this in one country and not the rest especially when most of the gas leakage problems are in other countries.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    If we are contributing just 1% the climate change and we made small changes, won't that be for the best?
    taz.
    .
    I totally agree taz, so why in another current thread do we have an a/c system that by all accounts looses 2Kg per day and the poster has knowingly refilled the system. He has lost more gas than i have in the last 10 years trying too find a leak.

    At what point should somebody have posted on the thread "stop putting refrigerant in it NOW". Was this gross incompetency or pier pressure forcing the engineer to keep the customer going, in so doing venting to atmosphere by now over 50Kg of atmosphere polluting chemicals. That 50Kg will take approximately 5 years in reaching the upper atmosphere, so already he has contributed until 2014 with his quick fill it and scarper.

    Should DEFRA see the post http://http://www.refrigeration-engi...ad.php?t=17755 would they look at this and take it as evidence of gross environmental damage. We do not all operate in this manner but now i'm going to have to fork out £ 900 quid and never let a drop of refrigerent vent knowing it would leak again.
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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    The timing seems unfortunate for your good self, but overall I believe that the 2079 is how the 2078 should have been, there is 80 questions and a 65% pass requirement, so after a days refresher course somebody with your experience would not have a problem, for the rest of us dont forget that it is only the C.I.T.B. qualification that will require renewing, the thinking mans option has got to be City & Guilds!

    A client of mine has expressed an interest for me to obtain a brazing certificate, this is a two day course that requires renewing every three years, in this case I think that they are taking the ****!

    Good Luck to you in retirement, the retirement age will probably be about 80 by/if the time I get there.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    True cost of 2079????

    What should it cost you?

    I know what it costs in money but the training and assessment is not done quickly.

    Say you do 4 days training and 1 day examination / assessments.

    How much does that cost you or your company?

    even doing the learning by distance learning and then just one days assessment or
    a short course followed by assessment.

    Cheapest is going to be about £300 to £400 and the dearest will be £800 to £1000.

    Is it the cost of the 2079 that people are objecting to or is it the fact that we have
    to prove our caperbilities to sombody else?

    taz.

    .
    Interesting last point Taz, but lets not forget lost earnings in the total cost, which would more than double that highest figure, I have personally booked a three day course and am really looking forward to it!

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Hi all, i personally think that England is taking the lead in the global warming thing but it is coming at a cost to the engineer or the companies who have to pay. I have a very small air con business in Spain and nothing is being done over here to my knowledge about re-claiming of gases or preventing leakage like the CITB 2079.
    Am I wrong in thinking that the new F-Gas 2079 is supposed to be for the whole of the EU countries and not just the UK or is it a case again of only the UK having to comply and everyone else sticks two fingers up.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Hi tonyh i am afraid so, everytime i meet with a Daikin or Panasonic rep, i ask this question about regulations but they shrug their shoulders and say not yet.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    taz24.i read your reply with interest,especially about the customers responsibility.when are they going to be informed.apart from me telling them what has to be done regarding leak testing annually etc they have not been notified by anyone else.so who is not doing thier job.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    taz.its not the cost that i object to,it is the fact that you have to keep repeating them every couple of years,and the fact that it is only us in the u.k.that seem to do it.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Hi Doormaster, there's another one that not many people know about and has not been widely published all businesses need to be registered with Refcom by July 2009 at a cost of around £100 and annual registration fee's. And so the money go round band wagon goes on. IN THE UK AT LEAST

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyh View Post
    Hi Doormaster, there's another one that not many people know about and has not been widely published all businesses need to be registered with Refcom by July 2009 at a cost of around £100 and annual registration fee's. And so the money go round band wagon goes on. IN THE UK AT LEAST
    What makes things even more interesting is that I contacted them on tuesday and they could not tell me how to register. They simply took my details and said they would get in touch. A bit of a joke really

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Hi Quality, I spoke to the Refcom chap at RAC09 he said nothing has been finnalised except the date, we just burst out laughing he also agreed that the rest of eu had no plans for 2079, so why have we been told that this is an EU Regulation is Brussels just having a laugh with the UK.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Oh dear i sense a revolution.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I think it's a real bonus that it's just the UK (even though it's not of course as the Viking nations will testify) we get so many foreigners coming over that now the playing field will be level for the first time. No ticket no job -go back home or take the course..

    Hopefully it will never be a EU certification or it will just go like 2078 - unregulated and totally worthless

    Stop moaning and see the advantages

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by multisync View Post
    Hopefully it will never be a EU certification or it will just go like 2078 - unregulated and totally worthless
    My experience in the Auto A/C field proves just how worthless 2078 is and how worthless 2079 will be.

    Car owners don't care about GWP. If it leaks, they get it recharged but 90% won't pay to have the leak traced and repaired until the compressor seizes up.

    The worst offenders in the UK are the car breaker yards - I have spoken to every one of them in a 20 mile radius of my home town, explaining the GWP and health hazards of R12/R134a and offering an evacuation service for just £10 per vehicle.
    Not one of them has taken me up on the offer.
    Most say they just cut the pipes. One guy even claimed to have his own equipment, but when I asked if it was manual kit or automatic he said "manual, it's called a stihl saw".

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by multisync View Post
    Stop moaning and see the advantages
    Oh yes i see the advantages of the one man band operating under the radar system with his cheap charges.

    The only way to stop this is if the wholesalers of refrigerant refuses the sale should the engineer not have the correct registration.

    Pie in the sky Multisync loose a sale you must be joking, yes the advantages are operate under the radar and make a fortune while we are going bust paying for training and no work.
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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    My experience in the Auto A/C field proves just how worthless 2078 is and how worthless 2079 will be.

    Car owners don't care about GWP. If it leaks, they get it recharged but 90% won't pay to have the leak traced and repaired until the compressor seizes up.

    The worst offenders in the UK are the car breaker yards - I have spoken to every one of them in a 20 mile radius of my home town, explaining the GWP and health hazards of R12/R134a and offering an evacuation service for just £10 per vehicle.
    Not one of them has taken me up on the offer.
    Most say they just cut the pipes. One guy even claimed to have his own equipment, but when I asked if it was manual kit or automatic he said "manual, it's called a stihl saw".
    There are still cowboy's in the gas trade -there will always be some somewhere. Of course you could just report them..Or get that Macintyre bloke in on it
    Get one done and the rest will start to think about your tenner a pop.

    However if properly regulated and put out to a suitable creditable body (*cough* not refcom ) then it can make a big difference to the vast majority of work. Once the trade gets up to speed then the end user has no alternative but to do the same.

    Without a registered 2079 card (and a company registration too) you can't buy refrigerant. This is the blood of the industry, clamp that vein and most rogues will die off. Hit the trade suppliers hard if they fail to adhere to the regs and you just won't get refrigerant.

    This has gone too far now to turn back. The trade has to embrace this and fight together to keep it and maintain it to a very high standard,

    Pushing against this is just siding with the cowboys.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by LRAC View Post
    The only way to stop this is if the wholesalers of refrigerant refuses the sale should the engineer not have the correct registration.

    .
    That is part of the legislation from what we have been told . I really can see D&W or HRP breaking this one somehow.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by multisync View Post
    That is part of the legislation from what we have been told . I really can see D&W or HRP breaking this one somehow.
    They will all break it, will they ask the engineer for his qualifications if he's buying a TEV or solenoid valve or even a drier, loose the sale i don't think so. There all up the creek with big losses and they want the quick buck back.

    A line must be drawn if not i'm going in to wholesale like Dell Boy says "Rodney you buy i'll sell sell sell".
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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    HRP was supposed to have done this voluntry in 2007/8 it was in all the trade mags but obviously they never did

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I think it's a real bonus that it's just the UK (even though it's not of course as the Viking nations will testify) we get so many foreigners coming over that now the playing field will be level for the first time. No ticket no job -go back home or take the course..

    Hopefully it will never be a EU certification or it will just go like 2078 - unregulated and totally worthless
    Hi Multisync, You have just closed the door on your argument for 2079 as from my understanding it is supposed to be an EU certification to minimise leakage, from what your saying every other country in the EU can carry on as they are any tom, fred and harry can work on refrigeration and air con unregulated and gas leaks will not change. As to the wholesalers not selling to people without certification 2078 already exists, i am not against training it's the constant lies and unnessessery money grabing that gets my goat. As to people moaning I suppose its alright if you are an employee who gets there training, exspesses and wages paid for by the company

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I agree with Multisync, the new regulations will be very beneficial to anybody approaching a company for the first time, a lot of business's out there will start to have their systems maintained even if only to comply. Doormaster objects to the fact of having to renew his qualifications, it is only the C.I.T.B. scheme that will require renewing, as the City & Guilds will last unless it gets updated in the future, I did the 2078 12 or 13 years ago, Electricians have the 17th edition, Heating engineers Corgi, I hope that the extra business opportunities created by this will more than compensate for the initial cost. We should take a leaf out of the training institutions books, and take advantage of the marketing benefits!
    Tutto il Mondo e un Paese

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyh View Post
    Hi Multisync, You have just closed the door on your argument for 2079 as from my understanding it is supposed to be an EU certification to minimise leakage, from what your saying every other country in the EU can carry on as they are any tom, fred and harry can work on refrigeration and air con unregulated and gas leaks will not change. As to the wholesalers not selling to people without certification 2078 already exists, i am not against training it's the constant lies and unnessessery money grabing that gets my goat. As to people moaning I suppose its alright if you are an employee who gets there training, exspesses and wages paid for by the company
    I haven't closed my argument in any way shape or form. We have absolutely no control on what happens in the rest of Europe -that is for the individual member states to impose the regulations. Some will with vigour -the Nordic states for example are leaders- whilst some may stray -the Slavic nations perhaps. The French and Germans will adhere.

    The benefit of those in other countries not complying to us here in the UK is that the economic migrants won't be able to get off the boat and start work. (just like Australia for example) If you haven't got the 2079 you can't work.

    The point about wholesalers is that before it was voluntary now it will be mandatory. That is the major difference which will enforce the wholesalers to comply. They just will not be allowed to sell to non registered companies or individuals. They are already accountable for all the gas they sell and return. The next stage for them is a register.
    However a simple check of the register against their sales by the regulator and they will be hung drawn and quartered

    This is the best thing to happen to our industry for many years, stay behind and scrabble around those who want the crappy bodge jobs and cash only -just leave all the good work for those who comply. ;-)

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by multisync View Post
    The point about wholesalers is that before it was voluntary now it will be mandatory. That is the major difference which will enforce the wholesalers to comply. They just will not be allowed to sell to non registered companies or individuals. They are already accountable for all the gas they sell and return. The next stage for them is a register.
    However a simple check of the register against their sales by the regulator and they will be hung drawn and quartered
    Lets hope they do a better job than CORGI did with gas engineers. Anybody can walk in to a merchant and buy parts down to component level, and the dealers never ask for qualifications - you can even buy gas fires off the shelf at places like B&Q.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Lets hope they do a better job than CORGI did with gas engineers. Anybody can walk in to a merchant and buy parts down to component level, and the dealers never ask for qualifications - you can even buy gas fires off the shelf at places like B&Q.
    A few things spring to mind.

    1 of course we can only talk in an ideal world
    2 Corgi have just lost the franchise
    3 B&Q do not sell self install kits any more.
    4 the gas parts is voluntary not mandatory

    However if you were in a wholesalers and saw them selling to un registered fridgies phone DEFRA and complain. Phone REFCOM, phone the local rag and tell them they are selling hazardous waste illegally.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    hi multisync.have you done 2079 yet,only i was talking to one of the training centres yesterday and the failure rate is about 65%.it just gets better

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    Angry Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyh View Post
    Hi Multisync, You have just closed the door on your argument for 2079 as from my understanding it is supposed to be an EU certification to minimise leakage, from what your saying every other country in the EU can carry on as they are any tom, fred and harry can work on refrigeration and air con unregulated and gas leaks will not change. As to the wholesalers not selling to people without certification 2078 already exists, i am not against training it's the constant lies and unnessessery money grabing that gets my goat. As to people moaning I suppose its alright if you are an employee who gets there training, exspesses and wages paid for by the company
    your right tonyh but how many times will the companies pay for their engineers to do 2079,as i have just heard off a very reliable source[training official]that the failure rate is 65%.its getting more expensive all the time.apparently the practical is about 3.5hrs and the theory you do on a computor,which takes about 90mins.you need 100% on the practical and 68% in the theory.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by doormaster2008 View Post
    hi multisync.have you done 2079 yet,only i was talking to one of the training centres yesterday and the failure rate is about 65%.it just gets better
    Firstly no one of us here have.

    Secondly absloutely fantastic that the failure rate is so high. This tells us two things

    1 They are actually taking it seriously rather than the 'turn up for a pass' 2078 approach.

    2 The trade is seriously underskilled.

    I recently did the Toshiba SHRM course and we were all told "There will be a test at the end"

    I laughed and thought that old chestnut. Imagine my horror when the instructor pulled out the test paper!
    Speaking to one from the old SWM guys who told me they were going to make this test much harder as the old 'day out with free sarnies, turn up and pass' approach makes little sense if an engineer rocks up to a client and says "Don't worry missy I'm Tosh certified" but slept through the course.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    i agree with multisunc very well said the 2079 is an oppurtunity

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    If you go for the CITB f gas certification the exam is open book hence the faliure rate will probably be less although you will have to be re-assessed every 5 years

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Wether we like it or not we're going to have to jump through these hoops as they come at us. As for knowledge of refrigeration and A/c; ph charts etc. I would have thought any person who had an interest in their profession would surely be interested in finding out how a refrigeration system actualy worked. Surely we all should have some know how of superheat and subcooling as a minimum.PH diagrams and the like can be fun

    Understanding the basic theory and principles helps with diagnostics and gives a better understanding of the systems as a whole, your work efficiency improves, a better job is done, more respect plus greater satisfaction in your work. Happy bunnies all around.
    As A/C & Refrig Engineers we should have a wide ranging engineering knowledge covering most of the building services M&E. This presents a better view of us for the client and in return hopefully some respect and acknowledgement of our profession.

    Costs: "f" Gas and Refcom?

    My current understanding of REFCOM is a self appointed "jobs for the boys " club set up by HVCA, another elitist club, which was the "favourite" chosen by the government to hold the register.

    Currently the registration fee is £300.00 and you have to get it right first time or else it will cost you more.
    Plus an annual membership fee of £250.00

    "f" Gas C&G 2079 training costs £500 to £1200 plus 2 to 5 days out of work.

    Apparently there are some 40,000 people who will be required to go through these hoops.

    That's something like £20m to £48m likely to be handed over to the trainers and assessors. Of which there are only 20 some of them. Over a two year period that means these assessors will be receiving between £1m and £2.4m each!

    It seems to me that we're being fleeced and as usual the the instigators and administrators are doing the fleecing. While the working guy at the bottom of the food chain once again gets clobbered.
    I can only hope that this round of red tape has some effect in ridding the industry of the DIY jobbing guy, and that we can be in a position to beggin to charge a realistic price for our service. For too long now has this industry been running in fear of being undercut at the negotiating table. Fingers crossed we might get a chance to make money instead of having to earn it...well you lot at least, as I hope to be retiring in 5 -10 maybe 15 years ( assuming my pension picks up.. ha)

    Always have faith and remember that every silver lining has a gloomy cloud with it.
    Reality is an elusion created by alcohol deficiency. Quaff and enjoy. [Yorkshire, UK]

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I take it LRAC you was on about my post with the 2kg of refrigerant loss per day(post 20) and totally see where your coming from but leaving a system under pressure for 5days with nitro and helium,no pressure drop what so ever! and no signs of leaks what was we suppose to do???????

    adam
    Last edited by airconadam; 26-03-2009 at 10:16 PM.
    ajj

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