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Thread: c.i.t.b.2079

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079



    Quote Originally Posted by nevgee View Post
    Costs: "f" Gas and Refcom?
    ......................
    Apparently there are some 40,000 people who will be required to go through these hoops...........................the trainers and assessors. Of which there are only 20 some of them. Over a two year period that means these assessors will be .....................
    required to test 20+ fridgies per week in a 48 week year.

    As the practical assessment takes 4 hours, there ain't no way it's gonna happen.



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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    ........ there ain't no way it's gonna happen.

    I'm sure you're quite right on that one ... well certainly not in the time scale expected. ... What about our freinds in the EU .. are they going down the same compliance route with equal vigour?

    Happy days .... where's my meds ...
    Reality is an elusion created by alcohol deficiency. Quaff and enjoy. [Yorkshire, UK]

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I don't think these 'f gas' regs have been thought through very well.

    I already have C&G 6048 vehicle A/C service & repair, and C&G 2078 safe handling.

    Now I will have to get 2079 as well so that I can buy from a wholesaler.

    BUT ..... there is not one single car on the market which takes more than 1.75kg of refrigerant, and the 2079 regs only apply to systems of 3kg or more.


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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    I don't think these 'f gas' regs have been thought through very well.

    I already have C&G 6048 vehicle A/C service & repair, and C&G 2078 safe handling.

    Now I will have to get 2079 as well so that I can buy from a wholesaler.

    BUT ..... there is not one single car on the market which takes more than 1.75kg of refrigerant, and the 2079 regs only apply to systems of 3kg or more.


    http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/sect...#MAC_Directive
    http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file30125.pdf

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Greetings,
    I have just completed the2079 successfully and can confirm that most regular posters on this site will not have a problem at all, I cannot understand the relevance of other EU member states not complying unless you have clients abroad, the regulations will force UK business's to treat their AC systems with the same respect as they do with their boilers, its a win, win situation for us! I agree with most coments made regarding REFCOM the mandatory register for July this year is still not in place, they have known about this for some time and seem far from being prepared!

    Cheers.
    Tutto il Mondo e un Paese

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I cannot understand the relevance of other EU member states not complying unless you have clients abroad
    The relevance is to stop leaks.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyh View Post
    The relevance is to stop leaks.
    Thanks for clarifying that, my personal ethos is to do, what I can do and is under my control as opposed to worrying what others are not doing.

    Several European countries have far stricter regulations than ours allready.
    Tutto il Mondo e un Paese

  9. #59
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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Sorry to butt in this conversation as I am located in the states, but reading the original posters statement makes me respond.
    I have been in this trade for 44 years, and teaching it over 25.
    Just because someone has time in, does not mean he is qualified. Now before everyone gets up in arms, hear me out.
    The manager of the local branch of a large supply house lives near me, and we meet grocery shopping and discuss what's new.
    He asks me why are so many units being returned for credit when it is obvious that installation was done poorly.
    I said that I understand having worked in Supply. as a Manufacturers representative as well as a technician.
    Too many think they know what is going on because they have "X" amount of years doing it. When they are asked why they did not take the classes we offer, the answer is always the same "What do I need that sh*t for I have been doing it for years".
    My answer is why not do it the right way instead of cursing out the Supply House when the return proves that you were at fault ?
    When an Instructor at the union hall I invited a controls manufacture to give a class insuring the attendees were "Journeymen" mechanics. During break he said to me almost half had no clue of what he was talking about. The lecture "Controls in series and parallel".

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    This is all confusing what the hell am i qualified in heres the C&G certificates.

    20748
    20742
    20781

    What NVQ level is that??????????????????????? or am i done 4.
    Grumpy men live longer

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Have just started teaching the skills and knowledge required for the C&G 2079. What are you all worried about. If you trained to NVQ then you should be well qualified to pass both the GOLA knowledge questions and complete the practcal test. All we want in the industry is to get rid of the split bashers and cowboys who have ruined a once great trade.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Just done my 2079 and have to say its not that bad, just read and understand the c&g questions before answering as a few people tripped up including myself. If it will help i can post what questions i can remember.

  13. #63
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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Hi I took the CITB for handling and brazing 3 years ago, when it expired I booked a course with local national supplier and took a City & Guilds 1 day refresher. At an open evening on car ac the training guy told me the cert. I had was not DERFa approved and would be invalid next year. I have tried to speak to defra and C & G but no one knows; any one know more than me.
    Paul

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by paul brough View Post
    Hi I took the CITB for handling and brazing 3 years ago, when it expired I booked a course with local national supplier and took a City & Guilds 1 day refresher. At an open evening on car ac the training guy told me the cert. I had was not DERFa approved and would be invalid next year. I have tried to speak to defra and C & G but no one knows; any one know more than me.
    Paul

    It's hard to say without knowing the specifics but
    if you have a City & Guilds 2078 you will be valid for another year or so untill the 2079 comes into full effect.
    If you have a CITB then you will be current untill it runs out.

    Anyother qual is not valid.

    taz.

    .

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    After reading some of your posts i cant resist getting involved. Im a POME in Australia so im no expert on what the regulations are now in the UK.
    If you have C&G 2078 or NVQ is it a case of just doing
    a couple of days exams????
    What if you dont have either? Does this mean you cant take the exam and your out of the industry???
    Australia already has all this place and Artic the goverment run protection racket are rolling the money in.
    Arctic pretty much sold this idea to idiots like Multisync.
    Lets get all the cowboys out of the industry get the Sparkies and plumbers out more money for us etc.
    Multisync has obviously never read the 'Emperor and his new clothes'
    Lets just put things in perspective. Would an electrician or plumber really know how to work on a Parrallel pack,Ammonia or cascade systems?? I dont think so, so arent these industries self regulating. Installing wall mounted splits is work that most of us dont want to do anyway.
    Now you here nothing from Arctic apart from the odd leaflet every now and again, but after every 2 years you do get a nice threatening letter telling you that you owe them money to renew your license.
    Millions of dollars is going into their coffers every year and nothing is being put back into the industry. How about funding some of these so called beneficial training courses themselves? Id wager if the responsibility was on the company or Arctic themselves to pay for it then we wouldnt be reading any of these threads would we?
    How about giving the profits to charity?
    I know some of you naive guys are out there thinking your going to line your pockets, but its not going to happen. All your doing is enrolling on courses getting ripped off, after which there will be more refresher courses and once thats done more still. As the mechanical refrigeration system has not changed in 100 years does this mean that none of us were trained correctly during our apprenticeships. Maybe we need to get our money back.
    As i know its law that once youve stood trial for murder and been acquitted then you can never be tried again.
    So why should a tradesmen be put on trial on numerous occasions.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by DALO View Post
    After reading some of your posts i cant resist getting involved. Im a POME in Australia so im no expert on what the regulations are now in the UK.
    Possibly not the best person to pontificate on the Uk situation then ...?

    If you have C&G 2078 or NVQ is it a case of just doinga couple of days exams????
    Pretty much

    What if you dont have either? Does this mean you cant take the exam and your out of the industry???
    Depends on how good you are. The exam is open to all from what I understand.There are no grandfather rights for this one . If you can't pass the 2079 then maybe you should be out of the industry?


    Australia already has all this place and Artic the goverment run protection racket are rolling the money in.
    Then leave the country -stop being a whinging Pom,

    Arctic pretty much sold this idea to idiots like Multisync.
    Thanks for that. However the AU restrictive laws were there before you went. If you don't like it leave.

    Lets get all the cowboys out of the industry get the Sparkies and plumbers out more money for us etc.
    Is this a statement? -if so, how would you propose to do this? If not without a lic then you cannot buy refrigerant (legally) Sparkies will go back to subbying the work out..
    There will always be a % on the fringes. The size of that % is down to
    1 The regulating body
    2 The industry itself.

    As a company we are going to adopt a policy of telling everyone we come into contact with that this law is now in place and they can only use registered companies with registered employees. How that will effect the market, who knows but if we all do this then the word will quickly spread.

    Multisync has obviously never read the 'Emperor and his new clothes'
    Your point being?

    Lets just put things in perspective.
    Would an electrician or plumber really know how to work on a Parrallel pack,Ammonia or cascade systems?? I dont think so, so arent these industries self regulating. Installing wall mounted splits is work that most of us dont want to do anyway.
    You have a very narrow and insular view. From your lofty height as a glorified night case cleaner, then yes only 'skilled fridgies do fridge work'
    There are more split bashers than commercial fridge engineers
    So 'most' do split bashing and alike. How should they be regulated as they also handle refrigerant waste ?
    Does the industry not have a duty of care to the UK? Should it not put itself up as highly trained , regulated and opperating with due Diligence?


    Now you here nothing from Arctic apart from the odd leaflet every now and again, but after every 2 years you do get a nice threatening letter telling you that you owe them money to renew your license.
    What relevance is this to UK?


    Millions of dollars is going into their coffers every year and nothing is being put back into the industry. How about funding some of these so called beneficial training courses themselves?
    What relevance is this to the UK ?

    Id wager if the responsibility was on the company or Arctic themselves to pay for it then we wouldnt be reading any of these threads would we?
    What relevance is this to the UK?

    How about giving the profits to charity?
    It would presumably go to finance the running of the system then rest would go to the G.ment.

    I know some of you naive guys are out there thinking your going to line your pockets, but its not going to happen. All your doing is enrolling on courses getting ripped off, after which there will be more refresher courses and once thats done more still.
    If the failure rate is 65% then it's hardly a 'refresher' is it?

    As the mechanical refrigeration system has not changed in 100 years does this mean that none of us were trained correctly during our apprenticeships.
    Who knows how good/bad your apprenticeship was?
    The amount of proper Uk apprenticeships now on offer is unlikely to run into four figures. Thus the vast majority that have been entering into the industry in the Uk are of low quality & poorly trained.

    Maybe we need to get our money back.
    Give 'em a ring.

    As i know its law that once youve stood trial for murder and been acquitted then you can never be tried again.
    So why should a tradesmen be put on trial on numerous occasions.
    Once you have sucessfully completed 2079 then that stands. However things do change and new refrigerants enter the market. Gas engineers have to have regular 'refresher' courses as their industry adpts to new rules and regulations. Uk has been very relaxed over the years which has allowed bad practice and untrained people to operate within it.

    If it is properly regulated then this system can work. (as I said previously).
    Narrow minded and insular attitudes are outdated and unhelpful to the progression from being a trade to a skill. Formal qualifications are but a mere part of dragging usup to a level not seen for 30+ years (IE only skilled fridge engineers do fridge)

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Well multystink or whatever your name is. The relevance to the UK is this. Australia implemented their system before the UK. Thus i think it would be a resonable guinea pig. Oh let me guess there is a totally different agenda in the UK and every British institution does things for nothing and the goodness of their heart.

    Why are you so scared of these shonky tradesmen? Surely if your as good as you claim to be your employer will be able to distinguish between yourself and the impostors. Or are you just useless and like collecting pieces of paper and ID cards. Dont hide behing qualifications fat boy youll soon get found out.

    How about you stop whinging get out there and start installing. If you dont want to do it then shut up and stop whinging about people pinching your livelihood.
    If you dont like it leave the industry, noone will miss you your just a number.
    I find it a little coincidental that your sat down on your photograph.
    Just so you know i was in Australia well before Arctick came along and i can tell you this. We have a state license in every state. Arctick then masterminded a federal license. Why bother when you already have one?
    The answer is now you have to pay twice.
    There was a major contrast of opinion and many aussies refused to subscribe.
    So its an offence to buy gas without one. Funnily enough its not an offence for any member of the public to buy a precharged unit from the local electrical store. Thats hardly regulating the industry is it?
    Im all for training people. Ive got more qualifications than most, but dont waste my time showing me how to use a recovery machine or brazing every 3 years just to fuel a fiscal agenda.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by DALO View Post
    Well multystink or whatever your name is. The relevance to the UK is this. Australia implemented their system before the UK. Thus i think it would be a resonable guinea pig. Oh let me guess there is a totally different agenda in the UK and every British institution does things for nothing and the goodness of their heart.
    OK, I guess I will have to respond. I am tad disappointed that you feel the need to try to insult..I guess you have your reasons to be infantile....

    So yes AU has A system but that doesn't mean it is the only one or the best/worst one or even the one we will follow. The Norwegian system is far more stringent -perhaps we are working toward that? I personally couldn't give a flying fig about the cost. The implimation is more important.

    Why are you so scared of these shonky tradesmen?
    Point out where I indicate I am scared?

    Surely if your as good as you claim to be your employer will be able to distinguish between yourself and the impostors.
    I can and so can my boss. However yellow pages can't, prospective customers can't. Cowboy's know this and avoid the legalities of proper refrigerant reclaim, disposal etc etc.Do you think the industry should not address this issue? If so how would YOU stop the cowboys ?

    Or are you just useless and like collecting pieces of paper and ID cards. Dont hide behing qualifications fat boy youll soon get found out.
    As I say I believe i am a reasonable engineer. Perhaps not up to case cleaning but hey ho.I believe most apprenticeships will include paper and this is just another one.

    How about you stop whinging get out there and start installing. If you dont want to do it then shut up and stop whinging about people pinching your livelihood.
    If you dont like it leave the industry, noone will miss you your just a number.
    You are obviously rambling or posting after a few beers? I don't remember wingeing -I do remember you wingeing on every post thus far. Perhaps you're confused (drink again??)

    I do worry about non skilled, poorly trained sparkies and plumbers etc nicking ALL our livelihoods. I am not so selfish thinking "No plumber can do what I do" in an I'm alright jack attitude.

    I find it a little coincidental that your sat down on your photograph.
    Coincidental to what exactly?

    Just so you know i was in Australia well before Arctick came along and i can tell you this. We have a state license in every state. Arctick then masterminded a federal license. Why bother when you already have one?
    The answer is now you have to pay twice.
    There was a major contrast of opinion and many aussies refused to subscribe.
    So you pay twice -you can afford it can't you? All your ranting is about money. You have not indicated once that you care one iota about anyone else let alone the industry itself...


    So its an offence to buy gas without one. Funnily enough its not an offence for any member of the public to buy a precharged unit from the local electrical store. Thats hardly regulating the industry is it?
    It's an offence to install it as stated by the guidelines. However not an offence to buy a fridge either, so what is your point?

    Im all for training people
    .

    Make your mind up! This is all about training people to a sufficient level. The old 2078 was a turn up sign in -here's your certificate. Utterly useless. I have seen so many idiots young and old coming out of the various colleges and trade schools who have been so bad they are a complete menace. I would not let them loose on their own fridge let alone a customer (who's paying for the **** ups).

    The colleges are letting the industry down so badly just taking the money and not failing those who are unable or unwilling to be trained. Finally the G.ment has said enough, from now on you must train to a level of competence and it must be proven. We should all rejoice that the unskilled are going to be found out.
    We must all hope and prey the trade schools and colleges do their bit and keep the pass mark high and not let it become the joke that is 2078. (I do have my doubts they can be trusted, of course...)


    Ive got more qualifications than most,
    I'm alright Jack !

    but dont waste my time showing me how to use a recovery machine or brazing every 3 years just to fuel a fiscal agenda.
    I do not believe there will be a 3 year renewal to that level. Maybe an update on regulations etc and a quick exam to make sure you haven't forgot (or that the previous examination company wasn't cutting corners for money etc)

    This is going to happen. Probably nowhere nearly as good as it should be..but it will happen none the less..
    Last edited by multisync; 27-04-2009 at 07:40 PM.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I gonna break the ice here we all have opinions our own of course but have no choice in what we are forced into legislativley , but how the bloody hell do you reply to a post and qoute only part of a previous post like multisync has done pleases tell all

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by DALO View Post
    Well multystink or whatever your name is. The relevance to the UK is this. Australia implemented their system before the UK. Thus i think it would be a resonable guinea pig. Oh let me guess there is a totally different agenda in the UK and every British institution does things for nothing and the goodness of their heart.

    Why are you so scared of these shonky tradesmen? Surely if your as good as you claim to be your employer will be able to distinguish between yourself and the impostors. Or are you just useless and like collecting pieces of paper and ID cards. Dont hide behing qualifications fat boy youll soon get found out.

    How about you stop whinging get out there and start installing. If you dont want to do it then shut up and stop whinging about people pinching your livelihood.
    If you dont like it leave the industry, noone will miss you your just a number.
    I find it a little coincidental that your sat down on your photograph.
    Just so you know i was in Australia well before Arctick came along and i can tell you this. We have a state license in every state. Arctick then masterminded a federal license. Why bother when you already have one?
    The answer is now you have to pay twice.
    There was a major contrast of opinion and many aussies refused to subscribe.
    So its an offence to buy gas without one. Funnily enough its not an offence for any member of the public to buy a precharged unit from the local electrical store. Thats hardly regulating the industry is it?
    Im all for training people. Ive got more qualifications than most, but dont waste my time showing me how to use a recovery machine or brazing every 3 years just to fuel a fiscal agenda.
    Dear Mr DALO, or whatever your name is..........

    Please do not insult other members of this forum.....state your case, argue, make your point etc, but, don't make personal attacks. We all have our own opinions, some you may agree with, others you may not. If you do not agree with a members opinion, it does not give you the right to make insults. We are generally a friendly, helpful membership - please do not spoil it.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    I just started out in the industry , on my first day of college the guy might as been speaking french , but i soon picked it up mate and no doubt you will as well , i would not worry about it

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    but how the bloody hell do you reply to a post and qoute only part of a previous post like multisync has done pleases tell all
    You mean like this.

    When you hit quote button whole previous post is quoted.
    Than you could erase part of text bearing in mind to not delete quote mark in square parentheses at begin of quote and /quote in square parentheses at end of quote.

    If you wish to quote subsequently than you have quote tool at message composition window toolbar.
    Mark text you wish to quote and hit quote tool.

    Practice by hitting Preview post button
    http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co....php?do=bbcode
    Last edited by nike123; 27-04-2009 at 11:14 PM.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by nike123 View Post
    You mean like this.

    Thats it

    Practice by hitting Preview post button
    http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co....php?do=bbcode
    I Think Ive got the hang of it

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Thanks for that Nike123

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Ok site moderator Frank. I appologise for my disparaging remarks on this site towards Multisink.
    However he started the whinging theme so how about giving him the yellow card too.
    Moving on. What i find astonishing is this. If the industry is crying out for mandatory legislations to be implemented and thats what the workforce want then why is there never a referendum for the guys in the industry to vote on. Its always some confounded moron who dreams up an idea and disguises his hidden agenda of money raising into a training course.
    Now look im probably the average joe in my profession and ive got around 16 years of qualifications most of them voluntary, but does that really make me any more employable than the next man??? Does it mean i have a higher IQ level or im going to do the right thing? Am i going to hacksaw a copper pipe and let the refrigerant go to the sky? Or once ive been on this course will it completely change my behaviour?
    I know umpteen guys who will cut a corner to make a quick profit.
    How many times have you installed interconnecting cable multisink? Did you test it with a megger? Do you install the right circuit breaker? Check the fault current or fault loop impedance?? Ill bet there is plenty of fridgies out there doing their own wiring putting an electrician out of work.
    My point is this, I would go on a training course every week but why should i pay for it. Companies are making enough profit, governments are taking their cuts so why dont they pay for it. Why dont we have in house training by our companies.
    The answer is simple, the company you work for doesnt give a sod, theyd sooner put a 3rd or 4th year apprentice in a van and cut their wage bill.

    While people like the aforementioned are very easily led its easy for these guys to take your money.
    I think they call it dog whistling politics.
    I find your attitude towards Doormaster terrible having served this industry much longer than you have. I dont think you give a sod about the industry you've just got a god complex, think your better than anyone who doesnt have the right paperwork and just because you have nothing better to do with your time and money think everybody else should do the same.
    Thats your choice and good if its voluntary, but why should we take away Doormasters livliehood just because he doesnt know the difference between an isothermal or Adiabatic process??? What does it matter if he can recover refrigerant into a bottle and hang a cassette unit???? Its not rocket science.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Quote Originally Posted by DALO View Post
    Ok site moderator Frank. I appologise for my disparaging remarks on this site towards Multisink.
    However he started the whinging theme so how about giving him the yellow card too.
    Dear Mr DALO..... Thank you for your apology, it is appreciated.

    I did not give you a yellow card and I won't be giving Multisync a yellow card.

    I politely asked you not to insult other members, who have opinions that you do not agree with.

    Behave or be banned.... the choice is yours.

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    Re: c.i.t.b.2079

    Ok Frank im charging myself with bringing the game into disrepute and will be contacting the football Association in due course.
    Im bored of this thread anyway.
    I shall start a new one straight away.

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