ammonia refrigeration

[deepakrbhat]

hello
i am trying to build a low capacity ammonia refrigerator,which could be used to manufacture ice.is this possible? the idea is to charge an open type compressor(say a gun metal compressor,so that ammonia doesent react with it), use aluminium pipes all round, aluminium evaporator and condenser.waht are going to be the possible areas of failure? why has ammonia refrigeration not been done on a small scale till date(or has it been done?)?

[Peter_1]

IS already done many time.
Small chillers which cool brines or a secundary fluid and then pumped around to cooling coils in meat processing.

[Andy]

deepakrbhat
how small is small.
10kW 100KW
size is relative
Regards. Andy

[deepakrbhat]

thank you for yuor response.
small is something in the range of 1 to 2 kW.well if it has been made before then should not have much problems.
thanks again.
deepak bhat

[Latte]

Can sombody explain to me the advantages of an ammonia system as opposed to an HCFC system. I have witnessed first had the effects of a leak, It laid my boss out better than mike tyson could. I don't like the idea of ammonia purely fo this reason, is it far cheaper to install & run or am i missing something.

Regards

Raymond

[RogGoetsch]

Can sombody explain to me the advantages of an ammonia system as opposed to an HCFC system. I have witnessed first had the effects of a leak, It laid my boss out better than mike tyson could. I don't like the idea of ammonia purely fo this reason, is it far cheaper to install & run or am i missing something.

If memory serves, ammonia is thermodynamically a better refrigerant than the halocarbon-based. Add to that its relatively low cost, ease of leak detection and its environmental friendliness (add water and it's fertilizer). It also cleans out your sinuses, drives annoying people away and kills foolish people, thus increasing the average intelligence of refrig techs in general, always a good thing!

One thing to remember is that under most codes, it cannot be employed where people congregate. As I recall, codes in California do not allow it to be used in any confined space with an occupancy denser than one person per 100 square feet, effectively limiting its use to industrial applications.

According to my first instructor, the danger from an ammonia release is not so much from the ammonia itself as from people trampling others in their panic to escape.

In his lifetime of ammonia work, he had known of only one fatality: a tech draining oil from a receiver who took a leak directly in the face, jerked his head back and knocked himself unconscious on a pipe. The tech was alone at the time and was not discovered until his body had been partially frozen by the leak dripping on him. If not unconscious, you will flee the area due to respiratory distress long before you will be overcome.

A water spray will mitigate the effects of an anhydrous ammonia release since it will become ammonium hydroxide, hopefully before it finds the moisture in your lungs!

How did your boss get knocked out?

Rog

[Peter_1]

Andy (and others)

Here's the picture of the CVP I changed.
You can see at the rest of the system that its condition is not that good.

On the second picture, you can see the service valve.

Peter

[jg/oz]

Andy,
I told about R723 which is a azeotrope with 2 fluids NH3 and de-methylether, the substance smells like NH3 but mixes very well with oils, NH3 does not.
This allows smaller equipment to be used ( smaller commercial aplications with this fluid and have Nill Ozone and extreme low GW damage.
As you will know NH3 can be smelled at 3 ppm (parts per million) which is bugger all but any NH3 palnt you enter smell because always some NH3 is around.
One of the reasons we use in Australia HCs easely because it has a Mercaptan
smell similar to LPG and even that is smelled in extreme small quantaties.

http://www.frigopol.com/?var_lang=en&rq=proj

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
An air conditioning system with R723 as refrigerants - an alternative to ammonia, but with better characteristics.

This air conditioning system is operated with a azeotropen mixture from 60% Massen% ammonia and 40% mass per cent of Dimethylether as refrigerant.

Apart from higher cooling capacities, better COP and better oil solubility smaller compression temperatures are obtained.
With the employment of R723 the condensation is possible with an air cooling, which replaces that complex to employment of a cooling tower.

Project description:

Non-artificial refrigerants, aircondition with two circuits.
2x 35L-DLYD-10

Technical Data
Qo=6,5 kW
to= +5°C
tc=+35°C

Refrigerant circuit1 R717
Refrigerant circuit2 R723







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Tel. +43 (0) 3462 70 000, Fax +43 (0) 3462 70 000-50, office@frigopol.com
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Try this websire and read

jg/oz

[Mark C]

Hi guys.... I am amazed at all the fear and disinformation found here. You are obviously posting things about which you have no experience or understanding.



First, Ammonia is widely and safely used throughout the world. It is commonly available everywhere, and other refrigerants are not. Couple this with the fact that there is ZERO of the so-called "Ozone depletion" factor, ammonia escapes and cleanses the air and is a fertilizer.

I would much rather be in a room full of ammonia gas, than one filled with a HCFC gas!

I am one of the 9% of the human population that gets heart palpatations when breathing other typical refrigerants such as 12, 22, etc. I would undoubtedly suffer a heart attack should I be exposed significant amounts. These other non-naturally-occuring molecules are never "good" for anything but heat transfer or oil removal. We won't even go into the cancer causing aspects of the non-ammonia refrigerant.

There is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of ammonia used as a refrigerant in this forum. First, you do NOT bleed from the mouth or nose after being exposed. The ammonia is absorbed into the mucous membranes and the body reacts to found the tissues with water. Pulmonary edema is the most likely event as the body attempts to dilute and process the irritant. If someone did bleed from the mouth it was the result of another injury.

Peter, the leak you describe happened because you did something for which you were not trained and you did it wrong. Ever hear of hydrostatic trapping? You also were a danger to yourselves and placed yourself in danger and got hurt. Unless you were sweating profusely from your fear in your recent service of ammonia systems, you would not have felt anything on your skin from what you describe you were venting. It was fear you were feeling.

Who cares if a small leak occurs through a packing when the valve is turned? It is part and parcel of the equipment design and is not a danger. Remember, ZERO environmental damage.

Ammonia is used by the power generation industry to clean stack emmissions from hydrocarbon burning facilities. If you have an ammonia leak, the government ought to reward you for clensing the air instead of fining you. Ammonia is a bouyant gas and rises quickly under most circumstances to disperse in the upper atmosphere. It does not hug the ground as the non-natural refrigerants do, thereby not causing wide-spread death and panic. (I complete the air modeling for my ammonia refrigeration clients.)

Ammonia is NOT a poison. It is not a carcinogenic material. It is an irritant. It is NOT toxic. The mechanism of damage is that of a chemical burn where the body will food the tissue with water to dilute. Yes, people can die from ammonia exposure, but it is extremely rare. The last person to die from it in the USA was a handicapped person living with emphasima (sp?) next to an ammonia refrigeration facility. (Where he should have never been.) He was unable to escape effectively and was overcome because of the lung disease.

I have been on the forefront of the service and installation of Ammonia refrigeration systems for over 25 years. I have been involved in many accidents, some fun, some serious, in my years. I have breathed many times what is regulated to be the "Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health" level of fumes with no long term effect and no scars.

Ammonia systems are not inherently dangerous, any more than anyother type of refrigerant is. Training and understanding and respect are the key. Disinformation and being scared are not. Ammonia will be used in more and more smaller systems as the codes are changed to reflect the technology and current design capabilities of systems designed as such. Get over the fear, and LEARN about this great method of refrigerating and you will know what a bunch mule marbles has been written about it and how wrong your views of it are.

Unless you are trapped in a closed room with ammonia, you are unlikely to be hurt, seriously or otherwise. I have had ammonia sprayed on me many times from mistakes made (mostly by others lesss trained than I). I have had liquid sprayed into my eyes and I have no long term effects because of my training and reactions. I have been sprayed with liquid and had my skin frozen to my shirt several times and I have no long term effects because of my training and reactions. I have had it sprayed on my bare skin, and I have no long term effects because of my training and reactions. I have breathed it on the job so many times it is not something I panic over, and I am more likely to go looking for the leak than run, and I have no long term effects because of my training and reactions. You guessed it, TRAINING and DISCIPLINE are the key to safely using it.

Ammonia is used for many things and truly much closer to people and by untrained ill-educated people. Billions of pounds are dumped into the ground all over the world as fertilizer by people every year. Many of these folks have no clue but to run if something goes wrong. We would hear of countless deaths in this regard if there was anything so dangerous used such as has been discussed incorrectly here!

There is no commonly used (Or legally useable) refrigerant that has a better actual COP in use, with the refrigeration design optimized equally for each refrigerant used, than ammonia. It's all about physics, and not marketing. (IE: You cannot use ammonia efficiently when comparing it to an air-cooled system.) Ammonia is the best from the standpoint of eco-friendly, ease of use and system additions, and efficiency. BAR NONE. Get anything else out of your mind.

Azeotropes using ammonia as one component is a crutch used by people who use inferior equipment from other refrigeration industries (commercial) because they do not understand how to handle the oil in a true industrial ammonia system. These systems are sub-standard and completely unneeded. I won't even go into my experience with bitzer and their attempt to sell compressors to the companies I have worked with. Bitzer does not (at least to my mind) make any compressor that I would consider using in a true, industrial ammonia refrigeration system. (Qualifier: I have not spoken with them in the last three years, and I may not know of their newest products.) I would say categorically that any equipment designed first for a CFC or an HCFC (or any other refrigerant) is not optimally useful for application with ammonia.

A water cooled condenser is NOT a complex piece of equipment! You cannot get any simpler than that!

We in ths USA are not "lucky". The OSHA and EPA regulations class us in the same category as poisonous chemicals where one or two molecules absorbed into the skin will kill. We take great pains to use and design ammonia systems safely. Education and training are the key to the safe use of this refrigerant. Virtually every system has detectors to start remote response to a leak in any form.

Ammonia refrigeration trained personnel are at the top of training and ability. They deserve to make better money. However, in the USA, ammonia systems are actually less expensive to install and to maintain. Elsewhere, welllll... have you ever tried to get 2000 pounds of R22 (back in the early 80s) in the middle of nowhere Kenya? Ammonia was readily available!

Anybody who thinks that oil must mix freely with the refrigerant may go directly to the back of the class for remedial training.

Anytime a company allows a system to deteriorate and fail, and does not train their people to use the tool properly to refrigerate, they are allowing this bad information to be reinforced, and your fear will be greater.

As long as you folks in this industry promulgate this fear and disinformation you are so content to parrot here, you will be missing one of the chances to utilize one of the best and safest refrigerants.

[Andy]

Hi
and you thought I was ticked off at the lack of understanding of NH3 and it's safe application
Mark C there is one alternative for NH3 when applied in low temperature blast freezing and that is a CO2/NH3 cascade. Higher COP lower and if required a lower evaporation. But that is the exception. If fairness to bitzer their open screws actually perform better on Low Pressure Receiver NH3 systems than can be simulated in their software. (we use them for small loads, in dual or tri compressor pacs up to say 200kW at deep freeze conditions).
Kind Regards. Andy

[Mark C]

Hi
and you thought I was ticked off at the lack of understanding of NH3 and it's safe application
Mark C there is one alternative for NH3 when applied in low temperature blast freezing and that is a CO2/NH3 cascade. Higher COP lower and if required a lower evaporation. But that is the exception. Kind Regards. Andy

That is not an apples to apples comparison.

[Peter_1]

Hino experience or understanding.

No??? How you determine this on a distance of some thousands of miles.

I would much rather be in a room full of ammonia gas, than one filled with a HCFC gas!

Well, that's your decision. I wanna live some longer.

First, you do NOT bleed from the mouth or nose after being exposed.

Hey, you say I'm a lier. I know what I saw and I know he was at home for at least 2 months. These are facts.

Peter, the leak you describe happened because you did something for which you were not trained and you did it wrong. Ever hear of hydrostatic trapping? You also were a danger to yourselves and placed yourself in danger and got hurt. Unless you were sweating profusely from your fear in your recent service of ammonia systems, you would not have felt anything on your skin from what you describe you were venting. It was fear you were feeling.

Jesus, you make fast conclusions. Hydro trapping? No never heard of it, we use the Dutch expression for it.
Hydro tapping is only possible Mr ammonia if you can vent via a servicevalve to water. And if there is no service valve or the service valve is so rusty that you can't open it anymore. What then wise guy?

You don't know my history at all but make statements. You've become just like Bush.

Your statement about the fact that you don't feel ammonia on your skin, are you a carpenter or so?
I don' t have fear when working on it, I'm just very prudent. That's all.
I will post some pictures from a installation - some of the posters saw them already - we did and you will need to revise your opinion.
Well, why should I post them anyway. Perhaps you should learn from the pictures how you must hydrotrapping.

Remember, ZERO environmental damage.

And your lungs?

Ammonia systems are not inherently dangerous, any more than any other type of refrigerant is. Training and understanding and respect are the key.

The first reasonable quote.

...and I have no long term effects because of my training and reactions.

You THINK you haven't them, that's something else.

TRAINING and DISCIPLINE are the key to safely using it.

I bet a former Marine.

A water cooled condenser is NOT a complex piece of equipment! You cannot get any simpler than that!

I didn't said it was.

We in ths USA are not "lucky". The OSHA and EPA regulations class us in the same category as poisonous chemicals where one or two molecules absorbed into the skin will kill. We take great pains to use and design ammonia systems safely. Education and training are the key to the safe use of this refrigerant.

You think that regulations are elsewhere less strict then in Cowboyland??
Come on!!
Why Bush won't sign the Kyoto agreement or at least why won't he follow the proposed limitations?

Virtually every system has detectors to start remote response to a leak in any form.

Why you install them anyway? Because it's more danger IF something should happen.

Ammonia refrigeration trained personnel are at the top of training and

Waw, glad you say it from yourself. Makes it very believable. All we, the other ***** guys are de facto the stupid ones now.

They deserve to make better money. However, in the USA, ammonia systems are actually less expensive to install and to maintain.

I don't believe this.

Elsewhere, welllll... have you ever tried to get 2000 pounds of R22 (back in the early 80s) in the middle of nowhere Kenya? Ammonia was readily available!

Didn't met Marc over there. Lucky for you.

As long as you folks in this industry promulgate this fear and disinformation you are so content to parrot here, you will be missing one of the chances to utilize one of the best and safest refrigerants.

sure the best but safest???


PS: that logo, is that from sort of Hells Angels Bike club?

You can see - saw it on your (is it anyway yours?) website that you're in fact not long in business. And I mean as a self-employed one.
You're fallen high but you can fall quick much deeper and faster if you threat all your clients like this. Knowing yyour job and running a business is something completely different. It's not because you're a succesfull tech that you will be succesfull doing the same job but then self-employed. You need that little charisma and adapted attitude (which you are missing)

You have to polish your website a little bit because most of the links aren't working.

[Mark C]

Peter, I was not speaking directly to you in all of my posting. However, it is painfully clear that you have a limited and somewhat fanciful experience when it comes to using or experiencing ammonia as a refrigerant. Fear of it seems to rule your focus.

I would know the ammonia is in the room and would leave. If I was in the room of HCFC gas, I would not know it... Until asphyxsia or a heart attck occurred. Ammonia is not poisonous or otherwise harmful if you get away from it. Nor is it carcinogenic.

If indeed you did see blood as you describe, you do not understand or know what actually happened. Exposure to ammonia inhalation does not cause blood from orifices. It causes pulmonary edema. You misinterpreted the cause of the blood. There had to be another cause. Period.

The fact that you have never heard of hydrostatic trapping proves you were not servicing correctly and speaks volumes towards your abilities. I teach refrigeration professionally, both in the private sector, and have taught at the college level. Maybe you should consider a little more education? Hydrostatic trapping of liquid is the trapping of liquid between two valves when servicing without vapor present. This causes pressures hundreds of times what the normal P-h diagram would indicate.

"What then wise guy"??? I don't really know, as I was not there, but I assure you I would have completed the work differently without getting a "snoot full".

Your hatred of our government leaders shows through. You seem to only wish to cling to, and foist upon us, these insults. It is a pity. You do not know me at all, but wish to use your political views to disparage me.

It is also a fact that you would not feel ammonia vapor on your skin under the circumstances you describe. I have no idea why or what, but ammonia vapor in that concentration is not going to be felt on your skin. You would have suffered pulmonary problems at this level.

I have no lung damage, and have been around ammonia in high concentrations for many years.

The condenser information was from another member in Australia. The fact that you think I said this about you is telling me that you do not read and understand well what is in this thread.

Actually, I was an officer in the US Army. What does that have to do with anything, except to attempt another disparaging comment?

"Cowboyland"??? ...another attempt to disparage me and my country, no doubt. Be an adult and think. I know not of your regulations you deal with in your country, but your assertion that we are not encumbered with such and react to them as such is a load of mule marbles. Grow up! We are professionals here as well.

Bush will not sign the Kyoto Agreement because it is based upon pseudo-science and conjecture. It is bad for the USA and is not fairly applied to all. For your information, we are under tighter control in many facets than the Kyoto Agreement demands. ANyway, that's a dead issue, and good for it!

I cannot figure out what your objection to my statement of the fact that we employ ammonia detectors in our facilities? This is a rational design requirement to provide the safest system possible to protect life, property and limb.

I never disparaged the ***** guys. That is you. I only said that good ammonia refrigeration tech are at the top of the training and ability "heap". The level of required training is much higher in the USA than for a "*****" residential or commercial technician. A good ammonia tech can virtually be working anywhere, at a higher than average wage. Simple facts.

I care not a whit about what you believe or theorize. I'm stating that an ammonia system for an industrial application such as a winery, cold storage, hog or beef kill facility, etc..... ammonia is a less expensive system to install and maintain. In the USA, anyway.

non-sequitur.... Ammonia is available anywhere in the world. Odd CFC, HCFC, and other refrigerants are not. (Certainly not the odd azeotropes and patented ones.) I guess you have no experience in this?

There have been more deaths in the USA due to non-ammonia refrigerants than there have been caused by ammonia refrigerants. That is fact.

That "logo" you describe is a patch I sell and give to my clients. It is used to identify in an eye-catching way the persons who are trained at a higher level to respond to an ammonia incident. It is a team builder id for use on the uniform and jackets. It is well thought of and I have hundreds of requests for them monthly. (Much better than a pen to give a client too.)

Again you attempt to disparage me and my experience. I have been an owner, Chief Engineer or Senior Engineer of several ammonia refrigeration contracting and enginnering firms and businesses over the years, not just my current one. (I started as a stock boy and welder's helper.) I have served at the national level for our professional organizations. I am known, and a recognized leader in our industry here in the USA. You are clueless as to my business. (Yes, my website does need a refresh, however, it does not really pay the bills directly, and I am much too busy to do so right now.)

You find me abrasive, largely because of your hatred of all that is "cowboy". I pull no punches and speak plainly and truthfully. I owe you nothing but my knowledge and experience to help the industry better itself and possibly help an ammonia techinician to not hurt himself or others and to work safely.

In short, yes, when used properly, there is no better, nor safer, refrigerant to use than ammonia!