C&g 2079

[frank]

Post your name here when you have passed!

Congratulations may be in order.

[Quality]

Quality passed C & G 2079 Cat 1 - 23 Nov 2008

[fanblade]

Fanblade passed C & G 2079 Cat 1 on 27th Jan 09 thanks to Mr White @ Polar Pumps Ltd Doncaster

[trentvalley]

Passed C&G 2079, Cat 1 at Polar Training, Doncaster 29th Jan 2009. Just don't click your pen top! Thanks Pete.

[Grizzly]

May I suggest that people DO NOT
refer to where they passed.
Or else this will just degenerate into a my training school is better than yours etc.
Besides your trainer is not everyones favourite!
Despite what He may tell you!
Grizzly

[monkey spanners]

Passed F gas thingy

[frank]

Passed F gas thingy

Well done.

How was it?

[monkey spanners]

I was a bit worried about the theory test, with my being dyslexic, but it was ok. Need to know ph diagrams entropy, enthalpy etc.
Many of the people there knew how a system worked and what state refrigerant would be in in the different parts of the system but struggled with the correct technical terms, so that would be worth reading up on for some.

As seem to be the way with these types of tests some of the questions seemed to be worded in a way that makes you think they are writen by people who don't know how a refrigeration system works.....

The practical tests would be easier if i had been able to use my own tools. Simple things like different make recovery machines taps doing slightly different things, some have lp cut out some don't etc. Them using mbar and me used to micron for vacuum.
I've not used oxy propane before as we did for the brazing test. More used to oxyacc or mapp.

I think the assesors are able to tell the difference between somone working with kit that is new to them and someone who is not competent, so i don't think any of us have much to worry about.

Glad its over for five years

[Andy W]

I passed my 2079 cat 1 today, 6 of us took it, 4 passed, one lad re took it this afternoon and failed again.

I would recommend anyone to do a one day theory course first or you may struggle.

[Quality]

Well Done Andy W

[Magoo]

OK Frank, can you enlighten the rest of the world, what the hell is C & G 2009.
As an aside is everyone aware of the Copenhagen conference impending. All to do with refrigerants. carbon taxes etc.. Big brother and tree huggers are going to kill our industry.
magoo

[marc5180]

The aim of this course is to introduce, train, assess and qualify, where appropriate, candidates who need to obtain the minimum legal qualification to install, commission, service, maintain, recover and leak check all refrigeration, air conditioning and heat pump systems in accordance with the F-Gas Regulation EC842/2006. All engineers will have to obtain this qualification by 4th July 2011.

What will be gained?

Sufficient skills, knowledge and techniques to:

* Fabricate and fit mechanical and brazed joints
* Pressure test and evacuate to BSEN378
* Charge a blended refrigerant
* Analyse system performance to ensure efficiency (using pressure, temperature, refrigerant state and rule of thumb)
* Leak test to EC1516/2007
* Maintain F-Gas log books and records
* Handle refrigerant safely and dispose of legally
* All candidates will be able to ensure systems are tight, efficient in their use of energy and meet the F-Gas legal requirements

How will it be tested?

* By a comprehensive practical assessment
* A forty question on-line assessment test

[Peter_1]

I passed in September 2008.

[old gas bottle]

passed ages ago . bring on the next pile of meaningless bull****.

[hoorain]

hi im new to RE and have no practical experience but since i have read most of the theory my personal opinion is that you can only perform a few tasks that dont need much of theory but to be a competent tech. and to solve certain problems you cant do without theory unless one performs as half tech. and half cowboy sorry for me bieng so blunt but i think many a competent techs.would agree to what i just suggested

[paul thompson]

how could you pass 2079 in sept 08. it wasn,t introduced until dec 08

[Voyager]

how could you pass 2079 in sept 08. it wasn,t introduced until dec 08

Peter_1 is in Belgium.

Must mean the equivalent to C&G 2079.

[paul thompson]

The aim of this course is to introduce, train, assess and qualify, where appropriate, candidates who need to obtain the minimum legal qualification to install, commission, service, maintain, recover and leak check all refrigeration, air conditioning and heat pump systems in accordance with the F-Gas Regulation EC842/2006. All engineers will have to obtain this qualification by 4th July 2011.

What will be gained?

Sufficient skills, knowledge and techniques to:

* Fabricate and fit mechanical and brazed joints
* Pressure test and evacuate to BSEN378
* Charge a blended refrigerant
* Analyse system performance to ensure efficiency (using pressure, temperature, refrigerant state and rule of thumb)
* Leak test to EC1516/2007
* Maintain F-Gas log books and records
* Handle refrigerant safely and dispose of legally
* All candidates will be able to ensure systems are tight, efficient in their use of energy and meet the F-Gas legal requirements

How will it be tested?

* By a comprehensive practical assessment
* A forty question on-line assessment test

SIMPLES AS THE MEER CAT SAYS

[frank]

OK Frank, can you enlighten the rest of the world, what the hell is C & G 2009.

Ooooppppps....

Fixed now

[chilliwilly]

OK Frank, can you enlighten the rest of the world, what the hell is C & G 2009.
As an aside is everyone aware of the Copenhagen conference impending. All to do with refrigerants. carbon taxes etc.. Big brother and tree huggers are going to kill our industry.
magoo

Just been reading throught the posts and I see that no one has answered your question. Let me explain it briefly.

City and guilds is an examination board that was set up in the UK over 100 years ago. It was mainly there as an examining board for trades people that worked on the tools. And they were three levels A, B, and C, although now there are nine levels. And are now called level one to nine. Level one is the lowest level and nine being equilavent to a PHD. They used to be with you for life, but now its a different case for some reason.

Usually to be a qualified trades person in the UK you need to have at least two of these City and Guilds to at least level three. Which usually can take eighteen months on full time block release, or three years on part time day and evening.

Since someone dreamed up the theory of "Ozone Depletion" and "Global Warming". They also dreamed up of a way of forcing some trades to have a minimum standard of training and qualifications. The City and Guilds 2078/79 being one of them. Whether or not you knew what you were doing, and already had thirty plus years of experience behind you.

Not being content with taking your money off you once for the training and examination, they made the qualification last for three plus years. After which it runs out then you have to do it all again, otherwise your breaking the law and you won't be able to purchase fridge gas.

You need to go back to a City and Guilds approved training centre and once again learn or prove you know how to use a recovery machine, make mechanical and brazed joints, the safe use of oxy/fuel gas, pressure test and vack out, charge with an Azeotrope blend, and pass a theory test.

Imagine that though, installing pipework on Monday, pressure testing and vacking out on Tuesday, then on Wednesday you can't gas it up because on that day your qualification has run out. And there's no one else available to gas up or commision the system. And some people say its about time they had a qualification like this!...?

[r.bartlett]

Imagine that though, installing pipework on Monday, pressure testing and vacking out on Tuesday, then on Wednesday you can't gas it up because on that day your qualification has run out. And there's no one else available to gas up or commision the system. And some people say its about time they had a qualification like this!...?

What like no one in the whole of Europe? Every single engineer is unavaliable or their qualification ran out the same day too?

Doesn't sound likely. Have you got anything even slightly convincing?

[chilliwilly]

What like no one in the whole of Europe? Every single engineer is unavaliable or their qualification ran out the same day too?

Doesn't sound likely. Have you got anything even slightly convincing?

...One man band maybe, or two or three. Or maybe one engineer trained up and licenced, with a couple of others trained up and working supervised. As the company is struggling financially and hasn't got the financial recsources to renew on the deadline.

Unless of course they can find maybe "like someone in the whole of Europe," who's up to date and prepared to drop everything and come and get you out of the sh!t, Because they wholly agree with the qualfication and its implementation. Failing that I suppose they could just carry on and use their stock of *****, and just hope that the EPA's satelite just doesn't happen to be zoomed in and watching them on that particular day.

Is that a bit more convincing for you? If not please continue to post and I will endeavour to try and slightly convince you further.

[r.bartlett]

...One man band maybe, or two or three. Or maybe one engineer trained up and licenced, with a couple of others trained up and working supervised. As the company is struggling financially and hasn't got the financial recsources to renew on the deadline.

Sadly if you can't afford to train you can't afford to be in the business. Sad but true.

If a OMB is so badly organized he let his ticket run out then that's his fault and his responsibility.We're in a recession and God knows it's tight at the moment but I cannot flout the law as it puts me and my customers at risk.
What would my customer think if I told them "sure I got them dragged through the courts/press because I was making a stand against the law or 'forgot' and yes I could have told them first that my ticket ran out and..."

Most Facilities managers etc will not thank you when get hauled over the coals because they got their company bad press by using a contractor who was breaking the law.


Remember your name will be in the press but so will your customers. YOU have the responsibility to comply irrespective of if you agree with the law or not. If you don't agree and refuse to comply at least have the decency to inform your customers first then he can make his own decision !

Unless of course they can find maybe "like someone in the whole of Europe," who's up to date and prepared to drop everything and come and get you out of the sh!t, Because they wholly agree with the qualfication and its implementation. Failing that I suppose they could just carry on and use their stock of *****, and just hope that the EPA's satelite just doesn't happen to be zoomed in and watching them on that particular day.

As it stands engineers and subbies are two a penny. Most will pull your hand off if you offer them some work!
If we cannot organise properly given we operate in a business where things change minute by minute then we pay the consequences. Business is only 50% hands on, the rest is legal and 'other' so I would suggest whilst it's a pain it's just a small part which should be accommodated.
The main 'problem' is that we're mid recession and it will be the straw that breaks for some but there are going to be plenty more tests over the next couple of years which will bust more than a few irrespective of this particular regulation. Although this is only the start. The next phase will be full refrigerant regulation and traceability from source through supplier, contractor, customer and back again.

If you agree with the accreditation you will try to ensure you remain within the law. If you don't agree then you'll practice illegally. Some will bend the law and the rules and try to self justify "It's only a day" etc. Most will get away with it but if they get caught should they complain?

Is that a bit more convincing for you? If not please continue to post and I will endeavour to try and slightly convince you further.

No not really.

If that is your whole argument then why bother to take your car test? Costs time and money and you don't get anything from it apart from a ticket which enables you drive legally?

The law is with us now and is unlikely to be rescinded. It's up to you to either mount a campaign against it and see if you can get sufficient backers to get the law changed. Good luck

[cool runings]

Since someone dreamed up the theory of "Ozone Depletion" and "Global Warming". They also dreamed up of a way of forcing some trades to have a minimum standard of training and qualifications. The City and Guilds 2078/79 being one of them. Whether or not you knew what you were doing, and already had thirty plus years of experience behind you.

Not being content with taking your money off you once for the training and examination, they made the qualification last for three plus years. After which it runs out then you have to do it all again, otherwise your breaking the law and you won't be able to purchase fridge gas.

You need to go back to a City and Guilds approved training centre and once again learn or prove you know how to use a recovery machine, make mechanical and brazed joints, the safe use of oxy/fuel gas, pressure test and vack out, charge with an Azeotrope blend, and pass a theory test.

Imagine that though, installing pipework on Monday, pressure testing and vacking out on Tuesday, then on Wednesday you can't gas it up because on that day your qualification has run out. And there's no one else available to gas up or commision the system. And some people say its about time they had a qualification like this!...?

Hi ya Chilly.

Your not quite correct with the ticket running out.

C&G is a qualification for life and does not need to be retaken.
What does happen though is the government change the law and qualifications need upgrading because of that.

Do not confuse C&G with CITB they both have equal qualifications but CITB does need renewing every 5 years.

As for a one man band not being able to trade Wednesday if his tickets runs out, well who is to blame there.
The Fgas has been on the cards for about 7 years it has been in operation since 2009 and does not fully come
into force until nexy July (2011) so there has been plenty of opportunaty to get the new Fgas qualification.

From your explanation to the original question it would sound as though you are not a fan of the new qualification

All the best

coolrunings

.

[chilliwilly]

I am all for training that's going to educate and neccessary to make somebody a qualified tradesperson. But I am not a fan of training or organsiations that have a legal backing to repeat your training and you gain nothing from it. I have both the 2078 until next July, but to be honest even after not being in the trade for nearly 23 years, I didn't really learn anything from the course. I could've read about the safe gas handling in a publication. As we had a small recovery machine at the firm where I worked to recover a refrigerant that contained etha and some other unkown substance, so it wasn't as if I didn't know how to use it. Although I had forgot all about it until I saw the recovery machines in the training centre.

We had to use it on certain sites that implemented the safe removal of explosive/asphixiating gases. And you were supervised by a PSA clark of works that quoted some OTT jargon about the safe removal of such gases. I already had a City and Guilds FJTP in welding and fabrication, but that's not recognised for pipework and brazing for some reason. I don't why though because the qualification covers more than the CITB or the 2078/9.

Going back to the 2079, a couple of colleagues of mine couldn't get on any courses to renew over to the 2079 after their 2078 run out, along with their CITB. They were going through tough financial times up to it running out, and couldn't finance any new customer base, and couldn't afford to renew or join any organisation to cover them. So they ended up folding their businesses due to financial problems, and the Fgas regulations documention already implemented with some of their existing and potential new customers.

They found jobs within companies, if there were some concession given for the renewal time, they would still have been in business as they had new work lined up but unable to carry it out, or get any suitable and reliable subbies to carry it out. But now they're having so much a month docked from their wages to cover the cost of the companies 2079 training costs. So as you can imagine they're not too happy about it, especially when the company can claim the cost of training against their overheads.

There should be by now, a tax code for trades folk who have to provide their own training so they can continue working in their careers, with no costs incurred. If you work in a factory, you'd clock in, and clock out then go home with only your bus fares.

I didn't actually know that the 2079 lasted for life. When my 2078 runs out I don't think I'll bother renewing the CITB. Especially if its equivalent to the 2079, as it seems like a waste of money.

Can you see my point though about having to renew when you are being financially shafted and have no money to renew. A bit like running out of toilet paper when you've had a sh!t at work on a Friday afternoon, do you pull up your pants and go back to work, or wait there all weekend till the cleaner passes you another roll under the door on Monday morning.

You also have to take into consideration if you can't renew/changeover until the near deadline of your ticket running out due to course availabillity. And for some reason you miss attending, could be illness, bereavement, or some other matter. In any which case you won't be able to gas up on Wednesday. and on that day you become a criminal for finishing your job. But if a little prick steals a car or goes on the rampage and causes countless losses, they are caught, arrested, charged then released on bail and goes and does it again. The difference is they have caused intentional losses, If you gas up your system on Wednesday you haven't caused any losses except to these third party industries for not forking out to renew.

But if the 2079 is going to be for life and stays that way, and you don't need to have your CITB ticket, it shouldn't be a major problem. Once you have got it you've got it. Lets just hope that these third party industries that dream up these requirements don't make it like CORGI and the Gas Safe Register. In any case why should a change in documetation justify a membership with an organisation or renewing your qualifications. You don't have to renew your driving test when they ammend the highway code.

[cool runings]

Snip
Going back to the 2079, a couple of colleagues of mine couldn't get on any courses to renew over to the 2079 after their 2078 run out, along with their CITB.

Snip

But now they're having so much a month docked from their wages to cover the cost of the companies 2079 training costs.
snippity snip
I didn't actually know that the 2079 lasted for life. When my 2078 runs out I don't think I'll bother renewing the CITB. Especially if its equivalent to the 2079, as it seems like a waste of money.

code.

Hi Chilly

I under stand what you are saying Chilly but the City & Guilds 2078 has been superceded by the 2079.

The CITB J 02 has been superceded by the J11.

They are diferent quals but both do the same thing.

The City & Guilds suposidly lasts for life unless the law changes
The CITB needs renewing every 5 years.

So if anyone has a gas handle qual now it is valid until July 2011 when the new qual comes into force properly.

Nobody with a C&G 2078 needs to stop working, they have till next July to qualify.

All the best

coolrunings

.

[bryanbeech]

i passed a few weeks ago, I lernt a few things along the way.
Good luck to all
Ps i would def recomend theory training...

[andyc425]

i passed too where tog o from here?

[acnerd]

I passed 2 weeks ago. It was the first proper F-gas course where they checked my practical ability in detail. These others I've been on in the past were almost a waste of time.

I thought the explanation of the Ph graphs were great.

Brazing with oxy-propane was "interesting"

The tutor explained that all engineers that work with refrigerants are meant to be certified by Feb 2011. He estimates there are 40 000 engineers in the UK, and that the institutions who offer the course could, in total, get through 4000 engineers a year. Do the maths!!!

[nick uk]

i passed 26/8/2009 just recieved certificates

[nevgee]

I cleared the hurdles today ...
It was a good reality check... If you know your stuff then it should be a breeze

[jasperreefers]

Passed today North west Kent Collage J&E Hall. Highly recomended. I would suggest doing some theory study before hand. They seem to hammer the indirect method of leak testing and kept going on about Mollier charts,but as it happend only had one question on the charts

[Testech]

What was the cost please ? - I know the Halls Centre quite well, and am interested in getting the 2079 shortly.

[jasperreefers]

What was the cost please ? - I know the Halls Centre quite well, and am interested in getting the 2079 shortly.

850+vat, for 4 and a half days I know it is cheaper but having my depot in Gravesend it was the best choice. it is Gravesend Collage now not at halls old place in Dartford

[Testech]

Has anybody got any suggestions on getting the course notes or training notes for C&G 2079 please ?

[Brian_UK]

Has anybody got any suggestions on getting the course notes or training notes for C&G 2079 please ?

Go on the course, you get the notes then.

Seriously though, there wasn't anything surprising in the course notes that I used so starting a course without them beforehand shouldn't disadvatnage you at all.

We had a couple of guys who had very little practical experience but they understood and learned without great difficulty.

[Langer]

Passed today. :-)

[Brian_UK]

Well, that's it, finally taken the exam for the CITB course.

Glad to say that I passed, so another five years of allowable working.

[Pooh]

I passed a while back and found some of the questions a bit weird. You all may be happy to know I have just gone through all the questions and hopefully made them make sense.

Well I can only hope.

Regards
Pooh

[richelli]

Passed today!

[frank]

Well done Richelli

[coolhibby1875]

you can find a pdf form on the city and guilds website, From there you can fully download all you need to pass as well as some of the question and answers. This will save you having to go on a 3 or 4 day course, Simply study the document then sit the test.

[coolhibby1875]

sat test today, Passed with score of 78%

[fowlie]

passed today not as hard as i was expecting.give it four to five years and they will have another type of course for us to do

[frank]

Well done Fowlie and Coolhibby

[harold1965]

you can find a pdf form on the city and guilds website, From there you can fully download all you need to pass as well as some of the question and answers. This will save you having to go on a 3 or 4 day course, Simply study the document then sit the test.

Hi,
Could anyone please direct me to this link-- If anyone is able to comment on any good training providers, I'd certainly appreciate it.
Thanks

[coolhibby1875]

hi harold if you type city and guilds 2079 into google it will direct you right to it

[harold1965]

Thanks for this- Have found it.There was one document i could not download as asked for a password but have got the other stuff.

I am now trying to decide where to study for this- need a reputable outfit that will explain the practical aspect & theory in a professional manner.

I do appreciate that names cannot be mentioned so if you guys do have any recommnedations please feel free to use the private message system on this forum

[landylout]

Hi Guys,

Just passed the 2079 on friday in Aberdeen,pheew.

I work offshore as an Engineer onboard a oil producing ship ,so we are required to look after the fridges and A/C units .This course was really good for us guys .

Craig

[Latte]

Yeah done it today, passed OK

Still not sure what all this empathy chart stuff is but know enough to know what part of the cycle was where and where all the 4 components are. Can i forget it all now :-)