COMPARISON OF HYDROCARBON R-290 AND

[shogun7]

The environmental impact of refrigerants over the entire life cycle of fluid and equipment, including power consumption, is captured in the life cycle climate performance (LCCP) value. The lower the value, the lower the environmental impact.
In this report the LCCP of hydrocarbon R-290 (Propane) and the two HFC blends, R-410A and R-404A, were evaluated for an 11 kW medium temperature refrigeration system having -18 °C to 0 °C evaporator saturated refrigerant temperature. Major findings of the current
study are:

• The LCCP of R-410A is equal to that of R-290 and the LCCP of R-404A is 6.5% higher than that of R-290 for systems with condensing temperatures of 46.0°C to 47.6°C, which are representative of typical design practice.
• On an equal first cost basis, the LCCP of R-410A is 4.2% lower and the LCCP of R-404A is 1.8% higher than that of R-290. The underlying assumption is that the first cost
of the R-290 system may be, for example, 10% higher due to added safety features, and on an equal cost basis, the HFC systems would use the additional cost for a larger
condenser.
• Since the underlying baseline test is based on a relatively small condenser, and since a conservative safety cost estimate is used, it is expected that the environmental impact of both R-404A and R-410A would be reduced further as compared to R-290 in future
system designs.
Roger

[Peter_1]

Is LCCP same as TEWI?

[rbartlett]

Is LCCP same as TEWI?

wasn't he one of donald ducks nephews- huey, luey and tewi ??

cheers

richard

[Peter_1]

http://www.afeas.org/tewi.html

[chemi-cool]

hi peter,

LCCP stands for: Life Cycle Climate Performance.

you can read about it at: http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...df/vainnio.pdf

chemi

[shogun7]

Peter,
As in many things we may see different things in the same material that we read, and you are quite right in the comparison of TEWI and LCCPwith the impact to global warming but I wanted to bring attention to these facts and
to help provide a clearer understanding of the relative performance potential of the R-290 as compared to two
HFC’s (R-404A and R-410A) for medium temperature commercial refrigeration.
The LCCP of R-410A is equal to that of R-290 and the LCCP of R-404A is 6.5% higher than that of R-290 for systems with condensing temperatures of 46.0°C to 47.6°C, which are representative of typical design practice.•

On an equal first cost basis, the LCCP of R-410A is 4.2% lower and the LCCP of R-404A is 1.8% higher than that of R-290. The underlying assumption is that the first cost
of the R-290 system may be, for example, 10% higher due to added safety features, and on an equal cost basis, the HFC systems would use the additional cost for a larger
condenser.
• Since the underlying baseline test is based on a relatively small condenser, and since a conservative safety cost estimate is used, it is expected that the environmental impact of both R-404A and R-410A would be reduced further as compared to R-290 in future
system designs.
Roger

[ghg]

R-410A and R-290 (propane)

The R-410A system probably uses POE oil, and the R-290
system probably uses 300 SUS mineral oil.

During periodic service, hooking up gauges, etc, small amounts
of moisture/air gets in. POE oil breaks down from this and a
host of other reasons and fails the system. The R-290 system
just keeps runnin'. After 8-10 years, the R-410A system may
be on it's 5th or 6th compressor and $$$ of service calls.
Propane system still on original compressor, only maint is to
oil the fan motor bearings, and clean the condenser twice/year.

Now go figure your life cycle costs.. why do you think
industry wants R-410A? The (service) business friendly
refrigerant... Look at all the $$$, or Euros or whatever
money R-410 will bring in.. nobody wins with R-290,
except for the customer.
--ghg

[jg/oz]

greeting 'GHG"
from jg/oz ---long time ago, still on the same email ????

hope we have a good conversation on this website, seems a lot better than
aircondition.com, some BS artists but rest seems ok.

Started a section MACS, we recently brought a paper to the EarthForum annex MAC Summit half April, if interested sent you the file, extremely
interesting an essay about 10 years use of HC in Australia and USA with all
the figures as well as the riskassessment comparissons.

jg/oz

[ghg]

ghg orig email will bounce (spammed out).. Send a short
email, and the bounce error mesg contains the new email addr.
Stops the spam..Sure send me the the paper.. thanks.

In the US, "MACS" disease (life limiting MVAC systems with
134a/PAG oil/moisture to fail at warranty) seems to have
spread to HVAC as well now. Life limit with POE oils. Makes
for Business Friendly systems. in the US, the Big Boyz have
finally won. I have pretty much gotten out of refrigeration/AC
now. Experimenting with making low cost colloidal silver for
mold/mildew control and maybe solar thermal power, where
I can use HC working fluids again and no Big Boyz to constantly
fight you every inch of the way.
--ghg

[baker]

In the US, "MACS" disease (life limiting MVAC systems with
134a/PAG oil/moisture to fail at warranty) seems to have
spread to HVAC as well now. Life limit with POE oils. Makes
for Business Friendly systems. in the US, the Big Boyz have
finally won. I have pretty much gotten out of refrigeration/AC
now. Experimenting with making low cost colloidal silver for
mold/mildew control and maybe solar thermal power, where
I can use HC working fluids again and no Big Boyz to constantly
fight you every inch of the way.
--ghg

I try to follow the adage "Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by stupidity".

However, now that the world has been taken over by MBAs and their life sucking economic rationalist associates, the table has been tilted to severely hinder any engineering innovation outside of the rich end of town. As you have found, if you want to innovate, you have to do it on a small scale under their radar.

[Mozambezi]

I can imagine propane use in supermarkets and maintenance staff carefully dealing with equipment + service guys trying to braze leak on kg working run.

For bigger applications industry uses ammonia or CO, so I don't see any sense either.

I'm wondering, did somebody tried to promote liquid metals as refrigerants

[Brian_UK]

Thread a little bit old, 4 years, so responses might be a bit slow