VRV Systems

[aircon50]

Hi all. I'm looking for information about VRV systems. I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction (i.e. website addresses, books etc...)
Possibility that I may have an install job this year, so looking to gain info beforehand.
Many thanks
Graham

[Brian_UK]

Try Daikin for VRF systems
and
Mitsubishi for VRV systems

There is also Sanyo.

[mekaniko5]

Try looking for OEM's that use Digital Scroll Compressors. They are manufactured by the makers of Copeland Scroll Compressors.

Unlike Daikin and Mitsubishi, which are inverters, they use a new concept of modulating the capacity.

Try searching google about the Emerson Climate
Technologies Digital Scroll.

[nike123]

Try looking for OEM's that use Digital Scroll Compressors.

With your affection to Digital Scroll, someone could think that you are working in Emerson marketing department.

[Brian_UK]

Try looking for OEM's that use Digital Scroll Compressors. They are manufactured by the makers of Copeland Scroll Compressors.

Unlike Daikin and Mitsubishi, which are inverters, they use a new concept of modulating the capacity.

Try searching google about the Emerson Climate
Technologies Digital Scroll.

I think that if you read the OP question you will see that he is not interested in buying compressors but looking for information on VRF/VRV systems.

Nike, as a student I would question his knowledge in this area

[zaheer]

dear.daikin there are many typ vrv units available so wich one you want know much?

[brunstar]

i think it is a good idea if everyone on this web site goes to www.daikin.co.uk and register for the EXTRANET which will give you unlimited information avaliable to dowload at your free will.
Including sales, technical data and service manuals.

Same goes for mitsubishi!!

enjoy!

[Brian_UK]

i think it is a good idea if everyone on this web site goes to www.daikin.co.uk and register for the EXTRANET which will give you unlimited information avaliable to dowload at your free will.
Including sales, technical data and service manuals.

Same goes for mitsubishi!!

enjoy!

No, sorry Brunstar - that is way too easy

[low0tech]

all the information you need tou install a vrv is included in the vrv application.Although the company which provides the system should provide a schedule of the pipes diameters and the y branches or collecteurs types.That's it you need no oil traps and you can do everything you want as long as don overlook the manuals.
Starting them might be a problem if you've never done it before

[Scramjetman]

Biggest drama I ever had with VRV was the electronics. You nearly need to be a nerd to manage them. You get to do a stack of reading during commissioning to make sure it's all set up correctly, especially if it's a big system and you need to be meticulous with labeling your cables when you install because it can be really time consuming tracking down what is what if your installer has been delinquent. I found the pipework a piece of cake, provided you pay attention to installing the branches exactly as the manufacturer requires.

[psycho]

once saw a mouse crucified across the incoming 3 phases on a daikin two pipe vrv if thats any help.never seen the same thing on a mitsibishi?? makes you wounder eh

[biengates]

Anyone can show me the differences of using one or all inverter compressors in outdoor unit (Some brand use only one, some others use all)? What is advantage and reason?

[Brian_UK]

With one inverter and one fixed speed the mode of operation is:

Inverter start
10%
20%
30% etc
100%
Start fixed speed and reset inverter to 10%
ramp up inverter as required until full load .

On falling load reverse the process.

Using two inverters does allow for softer start of compressors, not sure of any other advantages but I'm sure someone will offer advice soon.

[bill1983]

most good suppliers of vrv/f do offer training courses with excellent backup from the tutor who is usually existing or recently ex engineer, gone on to the clean and easy life.
i can recommend daikin if iam allowed to. no i don't work for them, but out of all the manufacturers courses theirs are the most informative and their back up in my experience is second to none.

[biengates]

I heard someone says that outdoor unit got all inverter compressors, so if one comp get problem, another comp will replace that one. For me, I don't see any advantages between two of these types.And in case of using all inverter comp, it's no good for voltage (frequency) of electrical system, am I right?

[bill1983]

it doesn't make sense to use multiple inverters on one system unless its a custom build with extra failsafes. see brian's example above for loading track.
once the system requires the inverter to run at 100%, the fixed speed comp can take over that load. if the load increases the inverte can ramp up again until that reaches 100% again.

[mekaniko5]

Some manufacturers do apply multiple VRF compressors in one outdoor unit. They use sequential activation of compressors for better reliability and longer life cycle.

[K.R.Iyer]

Graham,

For your project, have you decided to go for VRV/VRF only? Did you consider other options also - like ducted AC or Chiller? VRF systems are good to use when you have fluctuating load conditions.
VRV is a brand name of Daikin. The technology is generically referred as VRF. I understand that Canary Islands is near to Spain. In Europe, there are many VRF players - both inverters OEMs (Daikin, Mitsubishi and many others) and digital (Samsung and few China brands).

The electronic board, piping design and good installation practices are key in VRF. Go for a brand who will support you on above things.

[el greco]

Biggest drama I ever had with VRV was the electronics. You nearly need to be a nerd to manage them. You get to do a stack of reading during commissioning to make sure it's all set up correctly, especially if it's a big system and you need to be meticulous with labeling your cables when you install because it can be really time consuming tracking down what is what if your installer has been delinquent. I found the pipework a piece of cake, provided you pay attention to installing the branches exactly as the manufacturer requires.

Hello to all, I am new to the forum and to our work but I have kind of good of experience to VRF/VRV systems. I have to disagree with you brother since the Hitachi Set Free systems use for the communication of the outdoor units with its indoor units a 2 pole cable with no polarity which you only run from unit to unit. And of course auto addressing. So if you have the joints and the piping work properly you start up the unit and forget it!
Regards

[Thermatech]

In UK most VRF systems & Set Free systems are used in office blocks / hotels & use centralised control system.
In this case every indoor unit must have address set for communication.

I do hope that you carry out the proper commissioning data checks & record all the data on the commissioning sheets.
In the UK you will not get warranty if you just turn on walk away & forget.

[ivo]

VRF of Sanyo is one of the best VRF system right now even better then Daikin. I think I have the right because I have an expirience in many brands of VRF (V) tehnology. It is no check technical caracretictics on the net for both of them.
If someone need any help come from teh field (installation , communitations, settings ...) looking forward to hear you.

[mekaniko5]

VRF of Sanyo is one of the best VRF system right now even better then Daikin. I think I have the right because I have an expirience in many brands of VRF (V) tehnology. It is no check technical caracretictics on the net for both of them.

Hello Ivo, since both are inverter type systems, can you help us understand what new technologies does Sanyo have that makes it superior to most VRFs?

[manender]

hi,

i think you are wrong,
bcoz daikin's product name is VRV and mitsubishi product named as VRF. Daikin patented the name as a product.

[manender]

hi,

how cud u say dat sanyo's vrf is better than daikin. if u have some data which proves it is better , plz send to me, @ manenderdhariwal@gmail.com

[nike123]

hi,

how cud u say dat sanyo's vrf is better than daikin. if u have some data which proves it is better , plz send to me, @ manenderdhariwal@gmail.com

If you have some data that proves that Daikin is better than Sanyo, please send me. Details are in my v-card.

[manender]

hi,

if u can't prove sanyo's vrf is better than daikin's. so plz stop to right which is better.

[nike123]

hi,

if u can't prove sanyo's vrf is better than daikin's. so plz stop to right which is better.

You started this prove thing, and therefore, it is at your side to do so!
You are the first who asked from others to prove that Sanyo is better of Daikin, without presenting your evidences that Daikin is better than Sanyo. I was just pointing how is that rude because you asking from someone to prove something without will of means to prove your point of wiew. And you continue to do so in other thread about VRF and Chillers. If you are unable to present and prove your point or belief, than dont ask of others to beleive you, just because you say so. We are not children here.
Sorry!

[mekaniko5]

Biggest drama I ever had with VRV was the electronics. You nearly need to be a nerd to manage them. You get to do a stack of reading during commissioning to make sure it's all set up correctly, especially if it's a big system and you need to be meticulous with labeling your cables when you install because it can be really time consuming tracking down what is what if your installer has been delinquent. I found the pipework a piece of cake, provided you pay attention to installing the branches exactly as the manufacturer requires.

We need to understand the principles of VRV system. Inverter compressors rely on these electronics in order for it do its function. AC-DC converter is needed since most inverter compressors are DC.
To add more to the electronics inverters needs, power supply, IPM, power module, capacitor bank, control board. This usually doesn’t end here because it needs some mechanical features as well because of some limitation in capacity needs and oil return.

[aircon50]

Guys, guys. I didn't intend to start debates on which manufacturers systems are better (or not as the case may be)! I was just looking for info. I have no experience of install, or maintenance, on VRV systems. I only needed some pre-reading and knowledge "just in case" this job comes off. I thank all of you who have taken the time to reply. I will continue to broaden my sparse knowledge of refrigeration (newcomer - only about 37 years experience!!), and at the same time enjoy reading some of these threads. Refrig engineers humor must be different to all other technologies! Oh, and it's warming up nicely here in the Canaries......

[Greengrocer]

Hi all. I'm looking for information about VRV systems. I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction (i.e. website addresses, books etc...)
Possibility that I may have an install job this year, so looking to gain info beforehand.
Many thanks
Graham

Hi Graham.
Your 1st decision (before choosing a manufacturer) is whether you need a 2-pipe heat pump changeover system (cooling or heating) or a system capable of simultaneous cooling & heating heat recovery operation. Most manufacturers offer a 3-pipe system to achieve this. Mitsubishi Electic to it differently via 2-pipe system with an intelligent BC controller box arrangement.
The choice of 2-pipe change over or Heat recovery / 3-pipe will will depend on the application and budget.
Another factor that we look at is whether the outdoor units are on a roof or at ground level. Some makes have larger capcity units in a single box. e.g. MHI's largest single outdoor VRF unit is a 24hp / 68kW unit (max 136kW with two modules). Great for lower cost installations at ground level but too big to go in a building lift. Would need a crane to get onto a rooftop at extra cost. Other makes offer smaller capacity outdoor units which will fit in a lift and can be field piped together to get the total system capacity required. It's "horses for courses".
As for web sites try Hitachi's UK site www.hitachiaircon.com . Register with them and get into their tech down load area. Their Set Free VRF Tech & service manuals are there (15MB+ each) together with down loadable selction software. You can down load Daikin's VRV Express software off their Extranet site as well.
I find playing with the the software helps you understand the systems quicker than reading volumes of manuals which can come later. The Hitachi software is one of the best I've used with direct links to equipment tech data, pipe-work schematics, commissioning data, contols schematics and excellent graphics. It also selects 1:1 and twin, triple, Quad splits as well if required.

Of course if you're looking at a domestic install Heat recovery / 3-pipe systems probably won't be needed or possible since the smallest 3-pipe systems start at at around 22kW. Most manufacturers offer "Mini VRF/VRV" 2-pipe systems with 1 or 2 fan side discharge outdoor units. Zoned multiples of these smaller 2-pipe systems are often more flexible for some applications. They also limit the max refrigerant charge in each system so your "cooling eggs" are not in "one basket" if one system fails.
Sounds like you've got quite a bit of reading / research to do. As aways the members of this forum are here to help so you know where to come if you need any more.

[RIK-MAY]

1st off im not arguing but in what way is sanyo better? easier to install maintain or what? or all of thee above? i have installed many vrv products and a few vrf systems and i done think there is much between the two to be honest. i do prefer daikins bs box as opposed to mitsis bc controller as the liquid line middle ports on the bc controller and not accessable if the unit is installed hard to the ceiling like most have to be due to there not being a pump fitted. not as much work needed to install the pipe work on the mitsis though. The next job im starting is hitachi so i look forward to experiencing the differences. the liquid line bypasses the bs box for instance. how can the unit heat if it has liquid going to it at all times? surely it needs hot gas for that?

[RIK-MAY]

no way! how would it get in the power supply?

[cavalieri85]

intalling a citi multi system as we speak it is a whole new system to learn all run off the g4 and really makes u rethink how we do things here in the us all diagnostics run througha computer i am just learning all about it i am set to go to a mitsubishi class in a couple weeks i would definitely reccomend a factory class to get u up to speed and then just get your hands dirty with it experience is the best teacher

[cavalieri85]

i looked into the website cannot find info on the vrf or vrv systems as u said they are in there somewhere any idea what they are under

[cavalieri85]

to rik may
the sanyo is a piece of grabage my shop has a citi multi system and a sanyo and the mitsubishi is by far a better system my advice stay away from sanyo

[kossel]

I hv just joined the forum today. My friend is using Mitsubishi VRV system model KX2 but he recently sees red light flashing and error code E40. Can anyone tell me what goes wrong and how to fix it?

Kossel

[greenconsultant]

Can any body explain me how to estimate energy consumption of a VRF system based on theorotical or simulated Cooling load of a building...

I heard consumption of VRF system can be thorotically estimated by using Cooling load of a building and CoP vs load curve..

Can any one help me in this regard,

Thanks,

Green Cons....

[RIK-MAY]

to rik may
the sanyo is a piece of grabage my shop has a citi multi system and a sanyo and the mitsubishi is by far a better system my advice stay away from sanyo

To cavalier85
Exactly what i thought. there was no way they were even as good as mitsi or daikin. the only thing wrong with the 2 though is the use of flares. mitsi have done away with flares on the indoor units(well the ducted ones def have) but on the bc controller they still have flares with stubs to braze in so there is still a weld to be done and the possibility of a leaky flare. then daikin have welds on there bs boxes but still flares on the units. They should just do away with flares all together. The fgas regulations should ban flares on all new kit and it would eventually be phased out.

If only i was president. lol

[Sridhar1312]

Which one is apt for only cooling applications like in southern India ,VRV with inverter is better or with digital scroll

[mekaniko5]

Reading from other forum posts regarding inverter, the main challenge that I see for emerging markets such as India are challenges in serviceability, voltage fluctuations, high ambient, and environmental elements such as dust which affects system reliability.

[Sridhar1312]

Calculate hourly load and estimate the VRF working at what percentage load and arrive at the power consumption which can be considered in the simulation

[jbomba]

Try looking for OEM's that use Digital Scroll Compressors. They are manufactured by the makers of Copeland Scroll Compressors.

Unlike Daikin and Mitsubishi, which are inverters, they use a new concept of modulating the capacity.

Try searching google about the Emerson Climate
Technologies Digital Scroll.

Ive seen these in action and technology wise i think its a very crude system. The compressors sound like they are going to blow up when they turn on. Im not a pro on them by any means but to me it looks as if all that happens is the discharge is routed directly into the suction line to control capacity. When i heard digital scroll i thought it would modulate its frequency , but i guess not

[rizwan_1]

hi i want to daikin vrv 2 system maintance repraing manual plz

[vrv-systems.com]

I am a Daikin DNA dealer and have been in the HVACR business for over 25 years. I installed a Daikin (4 port) in my new home in Florida last year. My house (1700 sf, 3 BR) is all electric and my highest bill in the hottest month was only $78.00.

I sell only Daikin.

[K.R.Iyer]

Ive seen these in action and technology wise i think its a very crude system. The compressors sound like they are going to blow up when they turn on. Im not a pro on them by any means but to me it looks as if all that happens is the discharge is routed directly into the suction line to control capacity. When i heard digital scroll i thought it would modulate its frequency , but i guess not

jbomba,

the digital scroll is not a hot gas bypass arrangement. I also initially thought exactly like you, looking at the solenoid valve and its connections. The way it operates is interesting. You may find the details on www.digitalscroll.com if you want to know.

[little turtle]

I am a Daikin DNA dealer and have been in the HVACR business for over 25 years. I installed a Daikin (4 port) in my new home in Florida last year. My house (1700 sf, 3 BR) is all electric and my highest bill in the hottest month was only $78.00.

I sell only Daikin.

Yes, i really like Daikin product

[imran ansari]

hi,

if u can't prove sanyo's vrf is better than daikin's. so plz stop to right which is better.

good instalation make it better

[sachin230]

Yes, i really like Daikin product

Daikin products are good. but what is after sales?

Their yearly service contract cost is 25% of total system cost.System parts like PCB card are not repairable.we have to purchase new part at every failure in its part

ITS LIKE A WHITE ELEPHANT.........................

[jisah]

Daikin products are good. but what is after sales?

Their yearly service contract cost is 25% of total system cost.System parts like PCB card are not repairable.we have to purchase new part at every failure in its part

ITS LIKE A WHITE ELEPHANT.........................

hi,all am a student,interested in knowing the basic things of a VRF system.some body please help me to get that.

[frank]

hi,all am a student,interested in knowing the basic things of a VRF system.some body please help me to get that.

Follow this link to the Daikin VRV training manual - all the information you need to understand and design VRV