beginer questions

[steve_k]

Hi
I have that book, just not had the 2 years it would take to read it, though i have been trying

I am going to find out about my legal responsibilities here in Spain, though I would not be capable of going on a Spanish course, maybe a UK ticket will cover me, also been thinking about the approved installers course Dakin etc, again this would have to be a trip back to the UK,


and a recovery unit is now on my shopping list

[Brian_UK]

Thanks for your helpful posts, you may make a competent installer out of me yet

Steve

Steady there Steve they'll be after commission next

Also, on behalf of the others here, thanks for your kind words.

[paul_h]

I have come onto this forum and been completely honest in my skill level and lack of skills,
I expected quite a lot of flack, because it is easy to pick on the new plumber ac wannabe,

you have been very kind to me, given me information, you deserve credit and thanks for this,

this could of so easily been a slanging match telling me i have no business even looking at ac units,

as a direct result of the comments on this forum, I now have a nitrogen rig, proper scales and recovery unit on order,
I am getting my head around concepts i had not even hear of 1 week ago

Thx for your helpful posts, you may make a competent installer out of me yet

Steve

Because you came here asking how to do the job properly, you didn't get any flack or were told to bugger off
If you were a plumber/electrician in australia who installed splits, I wouldn't give you the time of day. They are dodgy buggers who never do the job right, only care about doing the job as cheap and quick as possible and getting their money, never to return.
Then again, they wouldn't dream of doing/learning anything they are not paid to do, so unlikely to see any plumbers or electrician installers from here looking at RE.

When I saw your post I held off saying anything, as I didn't want to help those type of people due to the crap they threw in my lap when I did warranty for them. (They can't flare for ****, don't pressure test, don't evacuate, don't fit isolators).

But the fact you are here because you want to do the job right, to learn and you have a good attitude about it, is why you didn't get your marching orders

Also Nike123 started out as a electrican and installer I do believe. So some of you installers in europe can come good

[steve_k]

Paul_H

reading through some older posts i came across a thread where you and other where voicing your dislike of plumber AC wannabes, baring that thread in mind your comments here are extremely welcome,

Back in the UK 100% of my work came from recommendations and repeat customers, and I have never advertised in 22 years of being self employed, I have only been working here in Spain for a year and I am finding it much different,

Attitudes are different, maybe they will catch up, and maybe they are different in the commercial sector, but on the domestic side attitudes are very lax
Today I have been to my suppliers to order a recovery unit, I have no idea how to use one yet
I asked about my legal responsibilities when fitting/handling refrigerants,
Yes I am supposed to have a handling ticket, I am supposed to have a recovery unit, and be registered financially with the government
we agreed that my attending a spanish course would be a waist of time because of my Spanish, a UK ticket is worthless, so do I have a problem?
he told me out of about 100 installers buying from him maybe 5 or 6 have a recovery unit and licence, and at most 30 are registered with the government (pay taxes)
when I asked about disposing of gas he looked at me as if I was stupid, as said that people wont pay for that lol.

OK telling you how bad everybody else is wont make me any more competent will it just trying to give you an understanding of how it is here.

I intend only to fit domestic split/multi split units, I now have (or is coming) all the tools i need to install and commission these units, If I ever have a problem I need to determine that it is not the electrical connection and that it is properly charged, anything outside of this would be down to the relevant service engineer (one of you)

Remember for you this type of install is basic grunt work

[steve_k]

just a quick thought,

how many of you wouldn't think twice about installing a sink/bath/fused spur etc,

I would hope that the level of competence required to get to your skill levels, that the above would be very easy for you,
with a bit of reading/searching the net, how many would tackle a central heating installation? you already have 95% of the skills right?
maybe running a new circuit back to the fuse board and adding a new breaker?
maybe adding a new board because there is not enough space in the old board?

[Brian_UK]

Steve, a set of recovery machine instructions if you want to add more to your reading list

http://www.mastercool.com/media/6900...ENG-BW_web.pdf

[steve_k]

Thx brian
the unit i have ordered looks the same as the mastercool http://www.stag.es/detail.asp?Id=4002276

no doubt the instructions will be in Spanish

I have the chance of getting a new split air-con unit for 100e, Its one of those no name Chinese imports somebody purchased and no longer wants (still in box) I am thinking of getting this to practice on, the first time i use the unit shouldn't be on a customers unit lol,

quick question
If I use the recovery unit to recover 407 then recharge the 407 back to the AC unit leaving the bottle empty, can i then use the bottle to do the same for 410a? I am thinking about cross contamination from ant residual gas,

[paul_h]

If you're going to reclaim for disposal, and cylinder will do.
If you are going to reclaim to reuse, you must use a new clean cylinder, new drier, fully purged out reclaimer.
Certified clean cylinders are available from wholesalers for rent.

Most of the time when you are reclaiming it's because the a/c has a problem, and the refrigerant could have been tainted, so not worth reusing it.
I've only reused refrigerant a few times, when an a/c was playing up and we thought it may be short. So we reclaimed it into a new reclaim cylinder and weighed it. If it was correct, it was charged back in. If it was short, the reclaimed refrigerant was disposed off anyway and a leak repaired and recharged with new refrigerant.
I don't like reusing refrigerant, even if it weighs right, it could have air or nitrogen in it. Also when 404a, r407c and r410a had a leak, the different gasses that make up the refrigerant leak in different quantiies, so you'll never have the unit working as good as it should after a leak repair if you reuse some of the original refrigerant.
edit: thats general advice for someone repairing splits where they often dont have more than 5kg refrigerant, so it's not worth the hassle dealing with the old refrigerant. It may be different for commercial when you have 20kg+

[icecube51]

I don't like reusing refrigerant, even if it weighs right, it could have air or nitrogen in it. Also when 404a, r407c and r410a had a leak, the different gasses that make up the refrigerant leak in different quantiies, so you'll never have the unit working as good as it should after a leak repair

Yo Paul_h,
was of the same opinion, but Peter_1 proved me wrong. somewhere on this forum he left a script from Switzerland ho explanes it all.

Ice

[steve_k]

Tonight i have borrowed some of Franks beer
beer makes you talk bollocks,

as a logical plumber you have the refrigerant working in the opposite direction, in fact if you asked most people to feel the high and low side of the outside unit they would get the flow and return wrong, 99& of plumbers would,
sorry frank you can have your beer back now,

[Brian_UK]

Sleep well.....

[technique]

Hi Steve,
We are a UK based AC and Refrigeration training company and have had a couple of people in Spain asking for training, we are looking at putting on a AC installation and safe handling course in the Torrevieja area early next year.. This we are going to 'tailor' to the Spanish market.. My experience of most ac engineers in Spain is that they have never heard of Nitrogen, vac pumps, benders and most scarily 'gauges'.. If you are intersted pm me and i'll let you know the details..

[steve_k]

Today I had a good opportunity to learn, or so i thought

My friends split inverter unit stopped working, I had purchased the units from my supplier to get better discount for him, though i had not installed them, one of the units stopped working in heating mode, so still under guarantee the service engineer was called out,
after the first visit he decided the inverter was faulty, though he couldn't find out what the error codes meant (p9/e9 on a verhal split) he determined this by attaching his gauge and clamp meter, watching the pressure and load,

visit 2 was with the reign inverter, much cussing and a revisit scheduled for today,

today he turns up with a new external unit, takes the entire circuit boards out and swaps them with the installed unit, and guess what? no difference,

after a phone call to his boss he tells me he is going to replace the entire unit,

purging down? this was done by closing the valves and loosening the pipe work, venting the gas into the air,
torque wrench? obviously no idea what one of these where
vacuum pump, yes he had a vacuum pump, I think he had salvaged it from the arc, no servo valve, and he stopped it before cracking open the service valve,(not being closed on the manifold to hold the vacuum)
no pressure or vacuum testing,
leak tested with soapy water,

sort of puts things into perspective for me

[icecube51]

if you try to tell these people how to do it the wright way,they just laugh at you and tell you he had it from his grandfather,ho did it for over 25years like that,so there is nothing wrong whit his way of service,its just the engines ho are no more like they joust to be.

Ice

[icecube51]

Yo Steve,
i was in Spain this summer the hole mond of august, and call it a professions habit to look at other people 's work. so some new buildings whit AC's and to tell you the truth,if they do a job like that at my place,i just shoot the guy whit a magnum.

there is still a lot of teaching to do over there.

Ice

[steve_k]

Ice I agree

If you read this thread from the beginning you will see I am not an hvac professional, but i am trying to do my limited work correct,
today made me realise what level of engineer operates in my area

[jcook1982]

Grew up with psi.....a bar is where I go for a drink!

With regard to Copper sizes.....most copper used is still in imperial sizes 1/4, (5/16), 3/8, 1/2, 5/8. These are the sizes that you will come across for a/c.
You might find that metric sizes are used in spain, but the flare nuts on the a/c units are normally sized for imperial (at least in UK), so this could present you with a problem area? (i.e. leaks) (poor flare joints are one of the major areas for leaks).

Can you get pre-insulated coils of soft copper over in spain - often co-joined pairs of the two sizes i.e. 1/4 and 3/8.
You do not then need to braze, as you run a continuous length of pipe, and just flare join at each end.
Its worth investing in a decent eccentric flaring tool suitable for R410 joints. You should also invest in flare nut torque tools so joints are not overtightened.

I think that people should just cut the flares out and braze in whatever they need to connect. Brazing is not difficult. Flares seem to me if you tighten them too much or not enough you have a leak. (BOOOOOOO)