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  1. #51
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    Re: Ship with no rudder



    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    I just noticed this and hope that too many people haven't been left in the lurch - subcontrators and employees owed money that is.
    Think about this - how much would the sharing of these sentiments help even if any of what you "hoped" would not happen were in fact going to happen or did in fact happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    As for the company owners/directors - mum said if you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything at all. I will be saying nothing except for karma is a bitch isn't it.
    Your mum was wrong - truths should be argued for all the time even if something is as close to an absolute truth as is possible it still will become just another prejudice to be replaced by some superstitious dogma if you don't continuously keep the arguments for the truth alive.

    Secondly - the concept of karma is a mere superstition. Like all superstitions it can only be supported by confirmation bias. How often do you see the less deserved get away with all the best out of a situation after which observers complain that there just is no justice in the world - or perhaps they suffer from the same confirmation bias working in the opposite direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    Oh come on yes you do, you made it especially for me, it even starred your big ugly mug.
    I don't remember - but I probably would do something like that - you are a creepy substance-less kind of person according to my experiences of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    What a shame its gone forever, it went a long way to show what a really genuine, caring guy you are. Oh well, maybe you will have to post a bit more around here and show us all that famous Marc O'Brien "how to win friends and influence people" personality you have..... or maybe webram can make all the previous posts under your previous username visible to all again - that's be worth a few laughs.
    Not only are you creepy and superstitious but you are also what we call, technically, a vulgar.

    When it comes to propositions and their meaning generally we make propositions of 5 sorts.

    Analytic
    Synthetic
    Metaphysical
    Ethical
    Aesthetical

    To determine what is meant by an analytical proposition we only need to analyse the words of the proposition themselves. The predicate is contained in the proposition. Like the proposition "Triangles have 3 corners". You do not have to go out into the world to check every triangle to see whether they all indeed have 3 corners. If someone came to you claiming to have found a triangle with 4 corners, 4 sides and 4 angles you would not consider them to have actually found any such triangle - you would immediately explain to them where they are going wrong.

    To determine what is meant by a synthetic statement we have to go out into the world and obtain an understanding of the concepts. Like the proposition "Snow is white" is a synthesis of two concepts that do not necessarily conjunct or their conjunction is contingent upon conditions out there in the world and its interplay with the senses and mind.

    Synthetic statements have meaning only so far as how, in principle, they can be verified or falsified. Thus metaphysical statements technically have no meaning at all. They are neither wrong or right - they just have no meaning. A proposition, pseudo-synthetic, such as "God is great" actually has no meaning at all - it is wholly meaningless - technically it is sheer nonsense. Like a pigs fart has no meaning at all - not a right meaning nor a wrong meaning.

    Ethical propositions and Aesthetic comments are all emotive. They are also neither right nor wrong. You like strawberries I don't. You like mint toothpaste I don't - who is right. You like friends for the sake of having friends - I don't - I'm not going to say you are wrong - that would be prejudiced and even dogmatic and since skepticism and doubt are greatest of virtues available to man below only knowledge I would be the last wanting to be prejudiced. My friends are not sort for by me nor engineered by me - they just happen.

    Common sense is false. Common sense tells us the earth is flat, the sun orbits the earth, heavier things fall faster than light things etc - more than 80% of common sense goes wrong. If you seek the truth you will always be pissing people off. It truly is either the truth or friends, if we go by the lessons available from history, it cannot be both. I certainly never learned anything from anyone who agreed with me. And when you choose to follow the rest you have in fact made no choice at all - most people prefer to make no choices in their lives for the sake of friendships, in quantity, but if everyone is a friend then in fact you have no friends at all.

    I'm a very emotional person when it comes to a drive for knowledge and truth - I care very much about both - and I'm glad that - according to you - it shows

    For you to happen to become a friend of mine you would have to grow a little more enlightened - become a little less ignorant.

    I'm a caring person - I care that you get this message - for your own good and better still for the good of your family, friends and colleagues.

    Here is a video I think it would be worth your while watching.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e1gdGluXI8
    Last edited by DTLarca; 15-12-2010 at 10:25 PM.


    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  2. #52
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    At the risk of being flamed -

    DTLarca... Don't be overly concerned about the one/s that are trying to wind you up. You've stated your case in an exemplary manner - with courage & conviction.

    Life has its way of moving us along roller-coaster rides at times. Time & tides move on - for all men.
    Last edited by desA; 16-12-2010 at 04:52 AM. Reason: to -> you
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  3. #53
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Where do you get this crazy notion that I would ever "happen to want to become a friend"?

    Perhaps second time around you could concentrate on the main reason for this forum's presence rather the usual rants and diatribe you are most famous for, I guess there is little reason for anyone to see your posts of the past if you intend to continue posting in the manner above.

    Please carry on and show everyone what a valuable member of the Refrigeration-Engineer.com community you are.
    ...and she said "give it to me you big fridgie"

  4. #54
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    I have spent some little time studying this and i would just like to say for the benefit of those that want to know that,

    Karma just means action, thats all. And actions have consequences, some forseen, and others not, some what we call good, some bad, and some neutral. But it all comes round in the end, one way or another.
    Taking pleasure in anothers 'bad' karma only serves to add to our own, as does trying to give anothers bad karma a helping hand in punishing them, its not for us to do.

    Another thing i would like to say, who wouldn't want to be able to look on any person on the planet and genuinely be able to call them a friend? (not in a sad, putting up with them, or turning a blind eye to some aspect of them way, or thinking they are all you could get and not wanting to lose them, but a genuine friendship, a realisation and acceptance of another being on the same journey, but maybe taking a different route)

    I have seen these sorts of posts end in people leaving, and things being said that may be later regretted, i hope this post will be an exception.

    Namaste,

    Jon

  5. #55
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    Where do you get this crazy notion that I would ever "happen to want to become a friend"?
    What I am saying is that you are an undesirable. Based on your current form you are like Brussel Sprouts to me - creepy and yukky. That does not mean Brussel sprouts in themselves are creepy and yukky - as the Pyrrhonians (350BC) said "Taste does not exist in the things themselves - taste is given to the things by the senses and mind - what tastes good to one tastes awfull to another and the Jaundiced find sweet things sour and sour things sweet".

    Also, you are mistaken - as is common with philosophically vulgar persons - the cereably simple - you see there actually was nothing in what I said that suggested you might happen to want to be my friend. Friendships happen and there is nothing you can do to make them happen or prevent them from happening - they are like beliefs - no one can possibly choose their beliefs - in the same way no one can choose their friends. All I am saying is that if history could be something to go on then history shows that you would have become a little more enlightened, at least a little more skeptical, before you might happen to become a friend of mine. At the moment you are behaving like a flat out cutural dogmatist!

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    Perhaps second time around you could concentrate on the main reason for this forum's presence rather the usual rants and diatribe you are most famous for.
    What is the main reason for this forums presence? When answering that question try avoid being so dogmatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    I guess there is little reason for anyone to see your posts of the past if you intend to continue posting in the manner above.
    There are 3 common types of reasons people appeal to or invoke when active in persuasion, argument or analysis. Those 3 different forms of reason are motives, grounds and causes. You are getting all mixed up between at least the first two. While you personally have motives for that proposition being true you unfortunately do not have grounds upon which it can be a basis for argument - this is why you are forced to conflate with circular reasoning. In a circular manner you are forced to assume to be true precisely the point you have motives for bringing into question - this is vulgar sophistry - you should rather be practicing priest craft, you have no sense of objectivity, and it would also better suit your superstitious nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    Please carry on and show everyone what a valuable member of the Refrigeration-Engineer.com community you are.
    What is a "valuable member of RE"?

    Also, if, as you show motives to assert, it is true and at the same time not a good thing then why would you wish it?
    Last edited by DTLarca; 15-12-2010 at 11:59 PM.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  6. #56
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey spanners View Post
    I have spent some little time studying this and i would just like to say for the benefit of those that want to know that,

    Karma just means action, thats all. And actions have consequences, some forseen, and others not, some what we call good, some bad, and some neutral. But it all comes round in the end, one way or another.
    Taking pleasure in anothers 'bad' karma only serves to add to our own, as does trying to give anothers bad karma a helping hand in punishing them, its not for us to do.

    Another thing i would like to say, who wouldn't want to be able to look on any person on the planet and genuinely be able to call them a friend? (not in a sad, putting up with them, or turning a blind eye to some aspect of them way, or thinking they are all you could get and not wanting to lose them, but a genuine friendship, a realisation and acceptance of another being on the same journey, but maybe taking a different route)

    I have seen these sorts of posts end in people leaving, and things being said that may be later regretted, i hope this post will be an exception.

    Namaste,

    Jon
    I will sit and have a beer with anyone - they will sit and talk so long as they can keep their emotions and prejudices out of the discussion.

    Looking at your Avatar - did you know that Buddhists are as Skeptical as Pyrrho, Sextus Empiricus, Hume and Kant?

    The Buddha suggests that a person is made up of 5 Skandhas (bundles).

    1) Form - our physical body, including its sense organs; this is seen as constantly changing and completely dependent on its material environment.

    2) Sensations - including all sense impressions, also ideas, for the Buddha regarded the mind as a form of sixth sense, gathering and registering ideas.

    3) Perceptions - the mind can understand the sensations it receives only by a process of conceptualisation (Leibniz & Kant too). Perceptions then are the "seeing as" of the western world. I look at a hunk of wood pieces arranged in a certain way and I SEE IT AS a table or AS a chair because I have these preconceived concepts waiting in my head to be applied as labels to things as I see them.

    4) Mental formations - these are the habitual attitudes and actions that are our response to our sensations and perceptions. They give us our character.

    5) Consciousness - this is the fundamental awareness of being alive and processing all that comes to us through the senses. Each sense is said to have its own distinctive form of consciousness.

    What is it again a Buddhist says every morning they wake up? Something very skeptical - very healthy skepticism that modern science agree's with? I can't remember what it is but I remember the gist.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  7. #57
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Dartboard on standby. I'll let this one develop.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    I recall my father saying to me, "Son, your problem is you would rather be right than be President". He considered this to be a serious character flaw, albeit inherited (from him).

    This was driven home later in life when I discovered that being right doesn't get you laid, either.

    I would still rather be right than be President, but I manage to temper this just enough to get laid.
    Last edited by Gary; 16-12-2010 at 01:35 AM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I recall my father saying to me, "Son, your problem is you would rather be right than be President". He considered this to be a serious character flaw, albeit inherited (from him).

    This was driven home later in life when I discovered that being right doesn't get you laid, either.

    I would still rather be right than be President, but I manage to temper this just enough to get laid.
    In a biography of the Gnostic Alchemist Mystic Carl Gustov Jung - "Inventor" or "discoverer" of the JMB Type Indicator system, or at least most of its foundations, they say of him that, compared to Freud, he displayed intellectual rigour, resisted dogma wherever he encountered it, spent his life refining techniques created by both he and others, and was disposed to confront all important issues head on - even when this meant courting unpopularity or disapproval.

    Most people are wrong - if you also want to do and think wrong then follow most people. If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  10. #60
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Most people are wrong - if you also want to do and think wrong then follow most people. If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

    If I can reverse this equation, i must be right, because i do piss off a lot of people!!!!!!!!!!!!

  11. #61
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by DTLarca View Post
    If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.
    If you want others to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

  12. #62
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Most people are wrong - if you also want to do and think wrong then follow most people. If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

    If I can reverse this equation, i must be right, because i do piss off a lot of people!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Although the reverse of the equation wont work necessarily - the scenario is probably not a coincidence

    If it is raining the roads will be wet. The roads are wet therefore it is raining. Nope - it could have stopped raining or maybe even it never rained and only snowed much earlier.

    By philosophic convention we can only ever be certain that something is not so - not that anything is so. Thus according to philosophic logic the mantra "We find what is wrong with the system by eliminating what is right with the system" is very inadequate when seeking a maximum of certainty. Yet in practice it in fact does maximise engineer performances - thus is something of a paradox.
    Last edited by DTLarca; 16-12-2010 at 02:39 AM.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  13. #63
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    It takes enormous effort to keep on the good side of most people, but what they will always remember you for is that one bad encounter, a phrase out of no-where, something said or done and cannot be retracted, then after that, all the good work done is wiped out. If there was no intension of helping anyone but yourself... then.. To be.. or not to be,... What was the question??.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    If you want others to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.
    That too makes sense

    Socrates who gave us such philosophically sound ethical maxims as "Then we ought not to retaliate or render evil for evil to anyone, whatever evil we may have suffered from him." [Plato, Crito 399BC] and in fact gave us all of the Christian ethics such that there is nothing of value that Jesus said that Socrates did not already say yet Socrates was executed for being an atheist and, as we now know, for being right about everything he said.

    Something Socrates often says in his dialogues when one of his interlocutors says to him of the other interlocutor "Socrates - I agree with him" he says in reply "No, facts cannot be decided true or false by vote, facts have truth or falsity quite independent of popular opinion - popular opinion cannot decide the truth of facts and more times than not what is popularly thought is in fact also false".

    So they executed him - then after studying the dialogues (Plato's) they realsied he had been right - so the city of Athens erected a Statue in his honour
    Last edited by DTLarca; 16-12-2010 at 02:46 AM.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  15. #65
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by DTLarca View Post
    So they executed him - then after studying the dialogues (Plato's) they realsied he had been right - so the city of Athens erected a Statue in his honour
    I'm thinking there is probably more to the story than that. All knowledge is acquired sequentially. We believe D because we believe C, which is a result of our belief in B, which flows from premise A. Nothing changes until A changes. Apparently something happened after Plato's death that changed people's perception of A, after which they accepted his perception of B, C and D.
    Last edited by Gary; 16-12-2010 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Enough is enough. What do you want Marc? When you left the forum in the first place, which was your choice, you requested all your posts were removed which was done as a last request. When you came back you got kicked out almost instantly. Why return now again under another name. I understand some attempt to clear up to whole Fridgetech thing, but you have done that now. No need to hang around.
    Spare me any psycobabble response with the overuse of the word Dogma, i know you too well.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    Enough is enough. What do you want Marc? When you left the forum in the first place, which was your choice, you requested all your posts were removed which was done as a last request. When you came back you got kicked out almost instantly. Why return now again under another name. I understand some attempt to clear up to whole Fridgetech thing, but you have done that now. No need to hang around.
    Spare me any psycobabble response with the overuse of the word Dogma, i know you too well.
    Hello slingblade

    I can't remember why I used to pull your tail - I just remember it was fun

    How have things been?
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  18. #68
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    That does not answer my question.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    That does not answer my question.
    What do you want out of asking me questions, Slingy boy?

    If I better know what your aim is then I possibly could help.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I'm thinking there is probably more to the story than that. All knowledge is acquired sequentially. We believe D because we believe C, which is a result of our belief in B, which flows from premise A. Nothing changes until A changes. Apparently something happened after Plato's death that changed people's perception of A, after which they accepted his perception of B, C and D.
    The people of Athens, for one, could not discern sophistry from philosophical logic. Because Socrates was pointing out to everyone that most of what they thought as given was in fact false he was mistaken for a sophist. There had also just recently been a period of tyranny by an oligarchy which comprised a few students of Socrates. It was later discovered that Socrates was firstly considered the wisest man in Athens not because he knew more than anyone else but because he knew he knew nothing. He demonstrated to others they too in fact knew nothing. Whereas a sophist tries on illusion out of language to persuade people of anything true or false so long as it benefits them. Telling the difference takes much skill - Socrates mastered that skill. They later realised this when they read accounts of conversations the Athenians had with him. You might say it was the birth of Skepticism that was the change.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I'm thinking there is probably more to the story than that.

    In terms of knowledge - Socrates came to the conclusion that

    The only virtue is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.

    He demonstrates throughout his dialogues how this conclusion is derived. It has not been improved on still today.

    Everybody wants to do the right thing but no one can do the right thing unless they first know what is right.

    Anyway, if you have never read any Socratic dialogues - here is a very short and light reading dialogue but it is also funny and does somewhat demonstrate why they say the scientific method was engineered by Socrates. It takes a short while to get going but it keeps getting better all the way to the quite clever but amusing end.

    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/ion.html
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by DTLarca View Post
    In terms of knowledge - Socrates came to the conclusion that

    The only virtue is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.
    I have a different take on virtue and evil, specifically evil:

    On a planet where all are color blind, the concept of color would not exist. Someone might mention "color" and everyone would say "Huh?". The concept of color is based in color sight.

    Similarly, the concept of morality must necessarily have some objectively existant basis, and that basis can only be rooted in some near universal human instinct.

    Such near universality can be found in the concept of self-defense. If defense is not wrong, then that which is defended against must be wrong. When attacked by an animal, it is simply an attack. However, when attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions and view such attack as wrong.

    To state this a little differently:

    Harming others, except in defense, is morally, ethically, instinctively and therefore objectively wrong. All else is subjective choice of options that are not objectively wrong.

    Of course, this primary moral/ethical instinct is not our only instinct and is weighed against other instincts which may conflict, resulting in moral dilemmas and/or rationalizations... and just as there are those who are born color blind, there may be those who are born morality blind.
    Last edited by Gary; 17-12-2010 at 05:31 PM.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    @ Marc,

    There seems to be a lot of history to this story that I've not been privy to. This seems to have caused issues on both sides of what is now clearly a divide.

    No number of platitudes, oneupmanship, or any other 'remedy' will really assist to bridge this chasm, in my view.

    I suspect that you, in the past, may have either intentionally, or unintentionally injured a number of people. For this hurt to be healed, you will have to go the extra mile. A sincere apology & some level of restitution (where required), may be required. A historical account from your perspective has been issued - perhaps this is not enough, though - there are obviously other sides to the real story.

    People are amazing in their capacity to forgive a sincere, heart-felt apology. Very often, restitution is simply not even required.

    Over to you, Marc.
    Engineering Specialist - Cuprobraze, Nocolok, CD Technology
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I have a different take on virtue and evil, specifically evil:

    On a planet where all are color blind, the concept of color would not exist. Someone might mention "color" and everyone would say "Huh?". The concept of color is based in color sight.

    Similarly, the concept of morality must necessarily have some objectively existant basis, and that basis can only be rooted in some near universal human instinct.

    Such near universality can be found in the concept of self-defense. If defense is not wrong, then that which is defended against must be wrong. When attacked by an animal, it is simply an attack. However, when attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions and view such attack as wrong.

    To state this a little differently:

    Harming others, except in defense, is morally, ethically, instinctively and therefore objectively wrong. All else is subjective choice of options that are not objectively wrong.

    Of course, this primary moral/ethical instinct is not our only instinct and is weighed against other instincts which may conflict, resulting in moral dilemmas and/or rationalizations... and just as there are those who are born color blind, there may be those who are born morality blind.
    A few months back I started drafting an article on morality for the Oxford University Philosophic Society. In fact I have 3 articles in the draft. The first is my argument that there are absolute morals. Most of western philosophy argues there are not. The second is one that explains what philosophy is - it does a little hop skip and jump from Socrates to Aristotle to Epicurus to AJ Ayer on finally to Karl Popper. The third is that banning Burqa's is not a token of the type of meta-ethical concept we call tollerance. I have tested the 3rd against the scrutiny of a number of philosophy lecturers in the UK and France who are facebook friends and they resisted my view for weeks but surprisingly all conceded in the end and started using my same engineered concept to push for a banning of the burqa in their realms.

    The first thing to get right is the difference between morals and ethics. Too many people including degreed philosophers I have debated with conflate the two - and it is this conflation that erroniously leads people to think that morals are relative when in fact they are not.

    If you do not like the colour I have painted my door you have raised a moral question. What I choose to do about your expressed dislike for my choice of colour is an ethical answer to that moral question - that is the difference between morals and ethics.

    Morals are instinctive; they are emotive or are just emotions. That is to stress that they are reflexive.

    In the same way that other babies of a nursery start crying when just one starts crying.

    Consider how mothers seep milk when some other mother’s babies are crying.

    A tiny infant smiles back at you and you feel something good that then carries that smile on.

    Morals are at and then also just above this level - they are inherently a part of human nature. They are also human nature.

    Animals too, very good examples of morals come from watching animals. In fact, in some ways, I wish we would be more like animals, to the extent that they often demonstrate what I would consider noble traits of altruism. So often they seem more altruistic than we are - see the youtube buffalo versus lion pride videos.

    That was all emotion – there were no ethics there – pure emotion – just a clear manifestation of a moral fabric.

    Also search for the Leopard and Bobbejaan videos and/or the Crow and Cat videos on youtube which demonstrate the moral “person” inherent, evolutionary, in these animals.

    None of these animals have ever read any religious texts. For that matter neither have any of these animals read classical Greek texts from where all of our modern ethics come.

    Piranah's feeding - they do not eat each other, those in their past with such morals ate each other into extinction. Those amoral genes were self eliminated.

    When we talk about ethics we talk about reason. We are no longer talking about emotions. But about reasoning on how to avoid emotionally negative situations from occurring by drafting contingencies to side step morally negative instances.





    In logic, deontic logic, we have moral statements that stand on their own - there is no "set" of premises preceding an argument that follows. Example:
    • It is wrong to lie
    • Ergo I will not lie
    In fact it will even suffice to simply state "It is wrong to lie" or "we don't lie".





    Ethics now gets rather more complex, logically speaking; there is a process of reasoning. Example:
    • Killing innocents is wrong.
    • If I drive while talking on my mobile phone I might cause the death of an innocent.
    • Ergo I will not drive whilst talking on my mobile phone.
    Perhaps that is clear enough to explain the difference between morals and ethics.

    It seems to be self evident or a definitional truth that the most primitive cultures will have societal customs more in tuned with our "moral" tendencies than any established system of universally respected and cherished ethics.

    In Socrates’ dialogue with Euthyphro he demonstrates that no one human believes that it is okay to do a wrong thing. The wrong thing is by definition wrong. Instead we argue over what is wrong.

    In the same way I can expand on this and state further that no one can argue about matters of our core morals. They are reflexive and those without them have gone extinct.

    Consider a lion that starts to vomit while eating a carcass - the other lions will reflexively also vomit and walk away from the carcass. They walk away feeling sick even if it was not that carcass that caused the first lion to vomit.

    No, we don't argue on morals. If we do then they are not morals. What we argue over are ethics. We argue over which of the different reasonings regarding our inalienably inherent morals are superior. And generally the superior are those that are furthest from the reflexive morals but at the same time cater for ALL associated reflexive morals.

    I am not a relativist when it comes to ethics. In the same way that I do not believe morals are relative, in so far as they are instinctive, like the lions that vomit when just one of them vomits, I believe that one culture's ethics can be argued to be better than another culture's ethics. You see, ethics are rules of utility – rules intended to maximise the happiness overall. They are our reasoned management of our moral reflexes.

    A measure of the success of one’s own culture’s quest in ethics would be to try answering the question “do others from differing ethical environments predominantly wish to migrate to your ethical environment, or from your ethical environment?”

    Another measure would be the varying degree's of coercion required to enforce the practices derived from consideration of any moralistic forces. Is "cruelty" required to attain compliance? Or is compliance fully voluntary and a source of "happiness" without any thoughts of "if only...".

    Primitive societies are excessively moralistic and as a consequence far too thin on Ethics. A difference between animals and humans is that animals have morals where humans in addition also have ethics.

    gary, you say "However, when attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions and view such attack as wrong."

    And we would be being evil if we were to mistakenly view a due critique as an attack only because we were ignorant of what was wrong or right in the given situation. Thus goodness can come from no where but knowledge.

    Galileo - who was put under house arrest for having the ammoral audacity to launch an attack on the holy book by insisting that the earth revolves around the sun in a time when people did not wish to believe this - was considered a quite antisocial person. You should read his dialogues in which he presents that case for the heliocentric model - it is funny - he makes fun of the Pope by giving the Pope's argument for a Solarcentric model to a man in the book called "Simpleton"
    Last edited by DTLarca; 17-12-2010 at 08:54 PM.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by DTLarca View Post
    What do you want out of asking me questions, Slingy boy?

    If I better know what your aim is then I possibly could help.
    My aim is to find out what you want here, hence my question. What do you want Marc? I feel it does not take Plato or Socrates to philosophise too long to get the gist of a question that obvious in nature.
    I suspect you want to profess technical prowess and berate stupidity wherever you see it, like you used to, and boy you saw it everywhere.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    My aim is to find out what you want here, hence my question. What do you want Marc?
    I was about to reply to DesA when you rudely interrupted

    I was trying to get hold of Gary to talk about delivering seminars in the states. I have a contact in New York who acts as an agent for that sort of thing - he arranges everything and pays you a fee. But he then told me to wait till March because if he arranges any seminars for me to speak at now they stand a small chance of being canceled on account of such events as snow storms. So I will speak to Gary closer to the time.

    I also noticed a discussion on here happening at that recent time when I was looking for Gary and had a bet with a friend that I could last more than a day on here without anyone knowing it was me - I won the bet. But because I have not been barred from the forums despite everyone now knowing who I am I feel I have been cheated and my buddy has been cheated - maybe the moderators did know it was me on the first day but lately just don't really care anymore - the buggars have forgotten me - I'm not the center of the universe anymore

    I was driving home from my office today thinking of the days when I created pseudonyms that were obviously created by me - to vote for Hitachi - like Mark O'Brien and RBrattlet - damn I laugh so hard when I remember those days of cheek and nonsense - Like the first ever candid Camera shot with the engineless car rolling down the hill into the garage. Gawd - my eyes are watering now - so funny - those are good memories

    I did join as Marc O'Brien a year or two ago - I forget exactly when - I visited the forums and saw Gary was discussing something about migration of TEV bulb charges or something and I thought he was overlooking something important so I quickly joined to comment. But of course within hours my access to the various forums was shut down - so I quickly found a forum I could still get into to make a comment - I made a last comment of some cheeky sort - I forget now - and then that was it - all closed down. I knew I would be shut down but I wanted to quickly make a comment under something Gary said and I got the comment through so all was good

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    I feel it does not take Plato or Socrates to philosophise too long to get the gist of a question that obvious in nature.
    And you would be quite right - I stalled you there for 16 or so hours by slinging the double sided blade (pun pun) at you called The Socratic fallacy. Just because every attempt you might give to define justice fails or falls flat - it does not mean you do not know what it means. Well done - good answer

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    I suspect you want to profess technical prowess and berate stupidity wherever you see it, like you used to, and boy you saw it everywhere.
    And you would be quite correct
    Last edited by DTLarca; 17-12-2010 at 10:02 PM.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    I was thinking of this video a moment ago - not sure why

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by DTLarca View Post
    I was about to reply to DesA when you rudely interrupted

    I was trying to get hold of Gary to talk about delivering seminars in the states. I have a contact in New York who acts as an agent for that sort of thing - he arranges everything and pays you a fee. But he then told me to wait till March because if he arranges any seminars for me to speak at now they stand a small chance of being canceled on account of such events as snow storms. So I will speak to Gary closer to the time.

    I also noticed a discussion on here happening at that recent time when I was looking for Gary and had a bet with a friend that I could last more than a day on here without anyone knowing it was me - I won the bet. But because I have not been barred from the forums despite everyone now knowing who I am I feel I have been cheated and my buddy has been cheated - maybe the moderators did know it was me on the first day but lately just don't really care anymore - the buggars have forgotten me - I'm not the center of the universe anymore

    I was driving home from my office today thinking of the days when I created pseudonyms that were obviously created by me - to vote for Hitachi - like Mark O'Brien and RBrattlet - damn I laugh so hard when I remember those days of cheek and nonsense - Like the first ever candid Camera shot with the engineless car rolling down the hill into the garage. Gawd - my eyes are watering now - so funny - those are good memories

    I did join as Marc O'Brien a year or two ago - I forget exactly when - I visited the forums and saw Gary was discussing something about migration of TEV bulb charges or something and I thought he was overlooking something important so I quickly joined to comment. But of course within hours my access to the various forums was shut down - so I quickly found a forum I could still get into to make a comment - I made a last comment of some cheeky sort - I forget now - and then that was it - all closed down. I knew I would be shut down but I wanted to quickly make a comment under something Gary said and I got the comment through so all was good



    And you would be quite right - I stalled you there for 16 or so hours by slinging the double sided blade (pun pun) at you called The Socratic fallacy. Just because every attempt you might give to define justice fails or falls flat - it does not mean you do not know what it means. Well done - good answer



    And you would be quite correct
    I rudely interrupted nothing, muppet. This is an open forum where a member may post on any thread he or she chooses. If my post appears inbetween what you consider a post directed at yourself and a post in response by yourself then you may perceive an interruption, but none is there.
    I dont have any views on your response to a post by Gary, or a bet you may have just made up to make some kind of point. I do know however you chose to leave this forum in anger and vowed never to come back, come on Marc a vow is a vow.
    You did not stall me for 16 hours as you describe it, i unlike Steven Hawking am not on a computer 24 hours a day. I was sleeping, eating and working before i had chance to respond to your drivel. As for your final point, Yes i am correct.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by DTLarca View Post
    I was thinking of this video a moment ago - not sure why

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk
    Maybe you just like 1970's television comedy, maybe you are mentally ill, i dont know i'm no psycotherapist. I think i can find one in your area via Google if you like.
    Last edited by slingblade; 17-12-2010 at 11:10 PM.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    Maybe you just like 1970's television comedy, maybe you are mentally ill, i dont know i'm no psycotherapist. I think i can find one in your area via Google if you like.
    Culture is just a shared psychosis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEPpY3mtekc
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    You did not stall me for 16 hours as you describe it, i unlike Steven Hawking am not on a computer 24 hours a day. I was sleeping, eating and working before i had chance to respond to your drivel. As for your final point, Yes i am correct.
    Careful - you're driveling
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by DTLarca View Post
    I was about to reply to desA when you rudely interrupted
    Many thanks, Marc. Anytime you are ready to reply, would be a good one.

    Reviewing the past discourses, again, I do suspect that anything short of a full apology to the aggrieved members, may come up short, though.

    It takes an incredibly brave man, with oodles of testicular fortitude, to admit failure & to say that most difficult of words - "Sorry".
    Engineering Specialist - Cuprobraze, Nocolok, CD Technology
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    Many thanks, Marc. Anytime you are ready to reply, would be a good one.
    No worries - this is a question of beliefs - an epistemological problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    Reviewing the past discourses, again, I do suspect that anything short of a full apology to the aggrieved members, may come up short, though.
    I was an aggrieved member - so much so I demanded that all my posts be deleted and my account be removed. I have had no appology. Although it was a very foolish thing to do - arranging for so many posts to be deleted - even i wanted to refer back to them in later months but couldn't. But then at the time I was an extreemly aggrieved member.

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    It takes an incredibly brave man, with oodles of testicular fortitude, to admit failure & to say that most difficult of words - "Sorry".
    It also takes an incredibly brave person to stick to his guns when it comes to his beliefs rather than bow to baseless customs for custom sake. I consider myself a brave person - except when it comes to heights, scorpions, snakes, sharks and spiders

    If I truly believe that there are two different stars - the morning star and the evening star, Phosphorus and Hesperus, and I argue sincerely that they are two different stars then why should I apologize when later you prove to me they both in fact are just Venus. When you later convince me that they are the same heavenly body being seen on both occasions, the morning and again in the evening, should I apologize? Of course not - I was not deliberately trying to permanently fool you. I simply held a false belief - I was not wrong to hold a belief which till that time seemed sufficiently supported by evidence and argument. I might have been wrong to hold dogmatically to that belief. Sure, perhaps I could apologize for being dogmatic. But what if I didn't realise that dogma is so antisocial and that I was being dogmatic. Again I should not be expected to apologize.

    I will never apologize for being me - I am proud of me
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    ??????????????????????????????

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    @ Marc,

    You know, I've sometimes found it wise to apologise, even if I considered myself to be totally in the right. This may sound strange & it certainly does not come easily to many of us.

    What I generally do is to apologise for my part in creating difficulties for others & for the adverse effect I may have had on them. I try to analyse the situation from the other person's perspective - put myself in their shoes, so to speak.

    I have always been able to walk away from these events feeling better about myself & my former adversary. More often than not, I have ended up with a new friend.
    Last edited by desA; 18-12-2010 at 07:10 PM. Reason: spelling correction : form -> from
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    People don't have to admit (or for there to be any) wrong doing or such, to say they are sorry for how things worked out or to reconise anothers unhappiness. All they are doing is expressing their sorrow that things could have gone better and people are upset.

    I would like to say how sorry, genuinely sorry i am about how things have worked out and seem to be still working out. I don't know any of the history of this all and truth be told i'm not interested either, no good comes from going over things you can't change, by all means learn from it, but like a red hot coal it needs to be let go or it will continue to do harm.

    Jon

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    @ Marc,

    You know, I've sometimes found it wise to apologise, even if I considered myself to be totally in the right. This may sound strange & it certainly does not come easily to many of us.

    What I generally do is to apologise for my part in creating difficulties for others & for the adverse effect I may have had on them. I try to analyse the situation from the other person's perspective - put myself in their shoes, so to speak.

    I have always been able to walk away from these events feeling better about myself & my former adversary. More often than not, I have ended up with a new friend.
    But you see DesA - this is exactly the sort of thinking that I am trying to change in the world. I believe it is like me not only trying to convince people that the earth orbits the sun, not the other way round, but also they should be more open to such truths and be less sensitive to ideas that contradict their thinking. Then you come to me and say - I find the best way about this is to just ignore the matter of the earth and sun and rather be sensitive to their feelings on the matter which will also make you happier. I say "No!" you don't get it - I believe they are wrong and I believe they should learn that their sensitivities have absolutely nothing to do with the truth and I in fact will not be happy until that time arrives.

    I love the subject of Social Psychology - have read here and there on the subject for years. I have a list of my favourite books on the topic - I can email it if you wish. Come to think of it - here is a great series of brilliant lectures on Social Psychology - about 40 hrs worth by a very articulate lecturer on the topic from UCT Berkley (Robb Willer). I recommend anyone interested in how people think and how such actions and thoughts such as apologizing, forgiving and being thankful effect out minds and body chemistry. Funny thing is nothing in these books and lectures was not already in the books from 500BC to 200BC written by the Greeks - I watched the whole lecture series last December and while watching it I kept thinking "Yeah, I know that - Socrates said that or Plato said that or Aristotle explained that or Epicurus insisted on that etc" - nothing new under the sun as they say

    http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_d...esterid=2009-B


    As Socrates said when they tried to get him to appologise at his trial - he was given the choice of either execution or appology. The whole speech he gave is called "The Apology". Socrates stayed true to his beliefs - he drank the hemlock.

    You can read Socrates Apology here...
    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html

    My position is derived precisely out of putting myself in the other peoples shoes and thinking "WTF is wrong with these people?"
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Exactly the sort of response i expected from you Marc. Just like the Stig on BBC's top gear, technicaly correct but with no emotion and no idea how to deal with human beings. How on earth you profess to write papers on psycology i will never know. Yet again you miss the point, which is :- Many people are upset with you, please apologise for your disgusting actions in the past. If thereafter you continue to post, we as a comunity may accept you back. Think it over, Socates would.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    Exactly the sort of response i expected from you Marc.
    Indeed, I am consistent - aren't I.

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    Just like the Stig on BBC's top gear, technicaly correct but with no emotion and no idea how to deal with human beings.
    If you think I am correct then why do you not apologise?

    My emotions are stronger than yours. Everything we do outside of instinctive reflex is done only out of desire. I do what I do because my emotional drive to do so is quite powerful and certain.

    Even a person who intends to be entirely rational without any emotional influence can only have such desires because of an associated emotional drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    How on earth you profess to write papers on psycology i will never know.
    Psychology? I do nothing of the sort. I write about the physics of fridge and I do a little analytic philosophy. I do a little conceptual engineering - that is technical philosophy - metaphysics, epistemology and logic - I build arguments to stand on their own merits and properly independent of opinions. I mostly write those technical philosophy articles because I think there are too many people like you in the world. You literally have no idea of what you are talking about. You commit the ad homonym fallacy but at the same time you know so little - so very little - you have no idea of how nonsensical you are.

    Wait there - have to fetch some stuff I posted before... here we go. Okay:

    The ad homonym move is an argumentative move and a wholly legitimate demonstration of another person's inconsistency. This is also known as the "you too" or "tu quoque" move as opposed to the "tu quoque fallacy" which is identical to the "ad homonym fallacy".

    For example - if someone argued that all killing is ethically wrong and that there is nothing unethical about capital punishment then provided you can demonstrate that capital punishment is a form of killing, then, in pointing out the obvious contradiction, you would be making the ad homonym move with legitimacy.

    On the other hand, the ad homonym fallacy is committed when an antagonist brings into the discussion an irrelevancy. If someone argued that we should not take seriously the findings of a medical scientist who had researched the beneficial effects of jogging on the cardiovascular system on the grounds that the scientist was overweight and probably could not even run 100 yards then a matter utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand would have been introduced to the discussion. As Jamie Whyte likes to put it "The antagonist might just as well have stated that in Spain it rains mainly on the plains for all it adds to the topic at hand". Because the two claims can be true at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive. The one does not contradict the other and nor is the one contrary to the other. In which case the antagonist has merely changed the subject to an irrelevance. I would normally then tell the antagonist that they probably are correct about the claim made about the scientist's personal health but this is not actually the time nor place to discuss such matters and could we rather get back onto the the other very unrelated topic of the benefits of jogging. You see, the scientist was not asking people to take his claims on faith or by testament but instead by analysis of evidence and argument. And anyway his personal fitness does not necessarily detract on its own from any value his testament is ordinarily given.

    In short - just because I do not like your personality and you do not like mine it does not mean I am incapable of understanding and explaining yours or you mine. The arguments you put forward or I put forward have to stand on their own merit independent of our own strengths and weaknesses.

    In fact one of the greatest theoretical psychological analysts, Jung, had the same personality as me and pissed all his colleagues off big time but still to this day we use his methods. According to Jung's method of typology this is my personality of late:
    http://www.typelogic.com/intp.html

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    Yet again you miss the point, which is :- Many people are upset with you, please apologise for your disgusting actions in the past.
    No - you are missing the point - please list all these disgusting actions

    Let's analyse them one by one. I have saved print out to PDF of several of the old discussions and those last discussions before I left. I do not think it appropriate to repost them here but if you insist then I can arrange this

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    If thereafter you continue to post, we as a comunity may accept you back. Think it over, Socates would.
    It's a little community here now? A little clique like thing? To hang around on this street corner we all have to wear a certain style hood, no belt and blue jeans covering at least our thighs. If you, Sling, have a community I would like smash it a little - shake it a little - and then rebuild in into something a little more respectable.

    You haven't changed - Sling - your just as simple as you ever were.
    Last edited by DTLarca; 19-12-2010 at 03:19 AM.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
    Think it over, Socates would.
    The difference between you and I, Sling, is precisely that I am a thinker and you are not.

    Socrates did think it over - read Plato's Apology and Plato's Crito - Socrates chose to drink the hemlock rather than bow to intellectually undeveloped characters like you. Not to spite people like you but to defeat the intellectual nonsense that oozes from the orifices of people like you.

    Do you know why they called it the renaissance and the enlightenment? Renaissance means rebirth. Around the 1500's there was a rebirth of Socratic thinking which resulted in our final freedom from the church. Socrates knew he was right and he was willing to die for it. That is my kind of guy

    If you had read anything of Socrates you would not have said that.
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    I actually thought this was a good thread about business's failing and someone genuinley giving their side of the story....that is up untill or about when 750Valve jumped in......then its gone all a bit weird (not because of 750..) who reads all this crap being posted? And what relevence does it have here? Obviously some history here between parties. But really...from someone on the outside looking in...WTF!

  42. #92
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goober View Post
    I actually thought this was a good thread about business's failing and someone genuinley giving their side of the story....that is up untill or about when 750Valve jumped in......then its gone all a bit weird (not because of 750..) who reads all this crap being posted? And what relevence does it have here? Obviously some history here between parties. But really...from someone on the outside looking in...WTF!
    I keep thinking of this video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

  43. #93
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goober View Post
    I actually thought this was a good thread about business's failing and someone genuinley giving their side of the story....that is up untill or about when 750Valve jumped in......then its gone all a bit weird (not because of 750..) who reads all this crap being posted? And what relevence does it have here? Obviously some history here between parties. But really...from someone on the outside looking in...WTF!
    I agree Goober , It all went a bit pear shaped. And what's with all this philosophy jargon ???
    I much preferred Socrates when he was merely a simple footballer..

  44. #94
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    Re: Ship with no rudder







    Engineering Specialist - Cuprobraze, Nocolok, CD Technology
    Rarefied Technologies ( SE Asia )

  45. #95
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Hey, desA, that's finally a good post with no words expressing o so much
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

  46. #96
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Well draughted and thought about response. My apologies, i thought you were a dimwit. However you have just proven you are mentally unstable, and i will treat you as such from now on wards. thanks Marc. Apology accepted.
    Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.

  47. #97
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    A Leopard can't change it's spots.
    ...and she said "give it to me you big fridgie"

  48. #98
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    i have not enjoyed reading a post as much as this 1 in years, keep it up guys.

  49. #99
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    [QUOTE
    This is how the west got so rich and so very rich that the only reason the east is also somewhat rich is because it has fuel resources made available by means created in the west borne out of a motivation occurring only because of this limited liability mechanism.
    QUOTE]

    Apologies to pick on your history but you will find it is actually "Fractional reserve banking" that created easily available credit that fueled business expansion in the west.

    You may think Fractional reserve banking is off topic but it is not, it the global financial system that we have with us today and the spectre of this financial system we have been born into is controlled by a few powerfull people that effects every one your businesses and employment that is being discussed.

    Simply put - The fractional reserve banking system creates money out of nothing and Banks loan money they dont have.

    Now heres the rub -

    As example just last month the UK Government borrowed 22.5 BILLION pounds, whats to stop the Government borrowing a trillion pounds from the banks...nothing! because this and future governments have these suckers called tax payers and there children and there childrens children to pay it all back...so your children are born into debt when they take there first breath.

    There is no Government accountability over borrowing limits (The last Labour government was the worst) and that is what affects the economy now (your business and employment).

    Please view this simplfied animation called "Money as deb"t by Paul Grignon (1 0f 5)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndKlWQfQ_tI

    If you dig deeper you will find that the Federal Reserve Bank in the US is not the Government bank, it is a private bank run as a business by unkown individuals?? (Google it).

    Same as the Bank of England it is the only registerd business in the UK where the anonimity of the Directors of the B of E is protected by law??

    If you aquire knowledge of how banks behave it is nearly enough to convert you to becoming a communist...but they havent got the answers either.

    Full reserve banking is the way to go but the anonymous controllers of the banks wont let that happen, they are just far too powerfull for any government to tackle.

    He who controls the money supply controls the World.

    Have your eyes glazed over yet?
    buddy

  50. #100
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    Re: Ship with no rudder

    Quote Originally Posted by 750 Valve View Post
    A Leopard can't change it's spots.
    And nor should it
    Only the dogmatist says he will never change his mind. We all know that some of our opinions are wrong but none of us know which they are for if we did then they just wouldn't be our opinions. - JS Mill.

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