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  1. #1
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    Talking closed cycle air refrigeration



    Gada Mates: Ha I think i've got it!

    I am curious as to whether the engineers are familier with Closed-Cycle Air Refrigeration Technology: and if so do you think that it would be a better choice then R 290(propane) I for one don't care much for the possible devestation of an explosion even if the system is located outdoors. Too many veriables for me to work with! Please express your opinions and convince me otherwise.

    mendacem memorem esse oportet "it is fitting that a liar should be a man of good memory"

    Cheers what



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    Not wishing to be critical of our American friends, but they do tend to adopt a black and white attitude to things. (Pres Bush - "You are either with us or against us")

    I have read some hysterical comments about HC refrigeration and how dangerous it is. Obviously HCs are not as safe as the common *****s, but some people have overstated their dangers.

    In Australia where most taxis run on propane, there has been no significant problem. It is not rare to see delivery trucks with propane cylinders mounted at the rear of the back axle (no Pintos in this country).

    The Europeans have some good standards as regards using HCs. It is all a matter of risk assessment. No one has to use ammonia. The fact that most large installations use it means that someone has determined that the cost savings in NH3's better efficiency more than offset the dangers.

    If I were a betting man, I would guess that sooner or later the US will suffer a disaster that will be blamed on global warming and there will be a backlash where all sorts of green rules get passed. HFCs will cost a lot more and HC will start to become accepted. However, I don't know anyone who would use R290 when it is priced the same as R22.
    Mark Baker

  3. #3
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    I was wondering when, if any time, someone would comment on my post , some times I feel like the odd man out on this web site!!
    Now then, Mr. Baker, as I really do appreciate your comment , I have to tell you that when you or anyone talks about this country I take offence and I know you would too if I talked about Austrila. Which I love by the way. For example, your introduction " Not wishing to be critical of our American friends, but they do tend to adopt a black and white attitude to things. (Pres Bush - "You are either with us or against us") I for one love that attidude!!
    I would appreciate if you kept the comments on the subject matter. But like I said, you do have a valid point but I'm still not convinced that just because you find propane in auto and other applications that analogy is nowhere near as complicated as leaks the develop on refrigeration systems.
    P.S. You never addressed my question however but I did notice the reference about Pintos but really they are fine horses!

    non mihi, non tibi, sed nobis " not for you, not for me, but for us"
    Last edited by shogun7; 25-02-2004 at 11:15 PM.

  4. #4
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    Mark "What is it about that philosophy that you love"?
    do you think thats a quite remark
    What is this nonsense you are espousing "Beat your wife" ?
    Listen pal, I dont have to like you or your stupid remarks about Bush and I don't like your inference so why dont we get off the hi horse and get on with answering the questions. Your missing the point, let's keep the personalities out of the conversations and get on with our endevers to help those who may need what we have to give. Besides this was none of your business!!!
    PS in these parts etc. etc. Tell you what, ASK me how much I care what you think!
    Semper FI
    Last edited by shogun7; 26-02-2004 at 08:38 AM.

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    Lets get back to the question

    OK, lets get back to the question asked.

    closed cycle air refrigeration
    I am curious as to whether the engineers are familier with Closed-Cycle Air Refrigeration Technology: and if so do you think that it would be a better choice then R 290(propane) I for one don't care much for the possible devestation of an explosion even if the system is located outdoors. Too many veriables for me to work with! Please express your opinions and convince me otherwise.

    thanks
    <img src=http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1&dateline=1296159097 border=0 alt= />

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    Those were my sentiments all along!!

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    Mr. Baker, as I really do appreciate your comment , I have to tell you that when you or anyone talks about this country I take offence and I know you would too if I talked about Austrila. Which I love by the way.
    PS in these parts etc. etc. Tell you what, ASK me how much I care what you think!
    talk about australia anyway you like, we both live in free country's with freedom of speech etc, however the way americanised litigation is going here these days its a wonder we still have that!

    most americans i have talked (roughly 80% of them) believe america is the be all end all of the world, the only country that exhists through the way they present themselves eg. world series baseball, how many countries compete in that? there are others i cannot think of at this time to mention...

    also, most are arrogant and believe their own bs and think they are super humans that are invincible... must be why the US has killed more of your own and allied troops then your enemy in every conflict since and including vietnam.

    and why the people that are shooting at you are using weapons your government/country has sold/supplied to them, its just an excuse to go camping overseas test some new weapon technologies then go home again after a holiday. the WMD crap was just an excuse to get some action started, and a case of finish what daddy started, not to mention the oil, or the innocent people killed just for this information!

    i could go on about not allowing iraq to conduct elections or whatever it is they do to elect another president to "run their country"...

    granted i too think sadam was a bad guy... and deserved to be kicked out... but morals and ethics are not elastic, like the laws that govern the US in a case of whoever has the most money wins.
    "Old fridgies never die, they just run out of gas!"

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    Originally posted by shogun7
    I was wondering when, if any time, someone would comment on my post , some times I feel like the odd man out on this web site!!
    Now then, Mr. Baker, as I really do appreciate your comment , I have to tell you that when you or anyone talks about this country I take offence and I know you would too if I talked about Austrila. Which I love by the way. For example, your introduction " Not wishing to be critical of our American friends, but they do tend to adopt a black and white attitude to things. (Pres Bush - "You are either with us or against us") I for one love that attidude!!

    Scientists tell us that over the course of our development, we evolved not one brain, but three.

    The most primitive, the “Reptile brain” is the “fight-or-flight” response brain, the one that gives you the dry mouth and the adrenaline rush as you wait to speak before a group. With no conscious wish on your part, it takes control and prepares your body for action against a threat, as those bodies most successful at survival have done for eons, shaping this brain’s evolution.

    The second brain seems to have evolved as a means of tribal survival. Again, quick action, but as a community rather than as an individual, seems to have had a survival advantage. Some have called this the Emotive brain (Latin: motion out or away).

    The tribe that could respond quickly with unanimity shared emotions and “feelings” which provide for much swifter action than logical thought, not to mention the power of deep feeling. For this reason, I prefer the term “Tribal brain”.

    The rational brain, the Neocortex (“new brain”) is the most recent development on the scene and as such, it has last claim on your attention. Either older brain can take over at any survival trigger: for the Reptile brain, any threat, real or imagined, to an individual person, (e.g.: “stage fright”); and for the Tribal brain, any threat, real or imagined, to one’s group (tribe, nation, religion, political party), or anything else a person identifies with.

    What’s interesting is that “thinking” is different in the Emotive and Rational brains. But only the rational brain can notice this difference. (This fact is important later.) We have probably all experienced doing something we felt totally right about, which later, on reflection, was not. “I lost my head.” “I don’t know what came over me.” “I lost my temper.” Emotive brain stepped in and made the decision.

    When the Emotive brain is active, feelings provide primary input and reason is marshaled to support emotion. “There must be a reason I feel this way.” This is actually not reason but rationalizing. To the Emotive brain, a feeling is experienced. It can be explained but it can’t be denied. Our experience is what defines reality for us, and it is not different for the Emotive brain. Conviction comes from this brain.

    In contrast, the watchword of the Neocortex is “doubt”, not conviction. To the rational mind, nothing is certain. There is always a possibility for error in one’s information, assumptions, processes, or analyses. (Unless, of course, someone attacks “our” ideas and our emotive brain leaps to “our” defense. Unfortunately, the emotive brain isn’t equipped for complex intellectual activities, so the defense quickly devolves to ad hominem attacks, ridicule, scorn, insults, etc.)

    So another difference in Emotive rationalizing thought versus Neocortical rational thought is in the complexity of the thinking. Emotive thought begins after the “truth” is experienced through feelings. Therefore it doesn’t have a very tough task. It is satisfied with simplifications, (things are black or white: “If you’re not with me, you’re against me”) generalizations (“you always do that to me”, “you never loved me”, “all Americans see everything in black & white”).

    So to summarize, if you want to know whether you’re using your brain or whether it’s using you, kids, look for these simple clues: you feel an emotion, you’re convinced you’re right, the answer seems simple, it’s obvious any intelligent person would agree with you and those who don’t must be misinformed, evil, or fundamentally inferior.

    Rog
    Last edited by RogGoetsch; 02-03-2004 at 07:54 AM.

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    hi shogun7,


    I have heard something about it resently but cant remember where. (age is taking its course )

    on the web, I've read the artical at: http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/gcr_819.pdf
    and at: http://www.foodprocessing.com/Web_Fi...D/LKIE-4LRTAH/

    interesting idea and looks promising but very new.

    is there literature available from the manufacturer?

    a video cassette will be better.

    are you involved in any way?

    chemi

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    The old (Hilsch) Vortex tube. Not Maxwell’s demon, but it does separate hot and cold (compressed) air.

    There have been many attempts to use this principle in commercial refrigeration, so far without any success.

    Today, Vortex tubes have some uses; they can be seen to cool electrical cabinets. It is a small device on top on the cabinet, where there are connected a compressed air supply, and the cold air goes into the cabinet.

    Regards

    Jan

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    vortex tubes are not new and very expensive to run because they consume large quatities of compressed air. they also heat the work erea so a exsosting of the hot air is required, costing more in air condition, but a very interesting little pipe.

    also used to cool mine workers suits, cooling, drill bits and cutting knives in the plastic molds manufacturing.

    look here: http://www.arizonavortex.com/

    chemi

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    RBEBTBN step aside Hannibal

    (Reptile brain Emotive Brain Tribal Brain Neocortex) - these tests go on and on - geesh, my brain hurts!

  13. #13
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    Mark apparently you suffer from” Psychodrama” I know the doctor's certificate certified
    that your brain was a splutjabbing mess on account of a purple depression
    brought on by your wire-wool stress. You seem to be encouraged to re-enact events
    that have pierced your mental armour. “BUSH, AMERICANS, IRAQ YADDA,YEDDA, YEDDA.
    How despair's dank well soon appears, within minutes, your posts begin rambling,
    and your sight bleary-blurred through the tears. You need to halt the enactment
    until near enough to gather yourself and the trembling detrembled, the blubbing deblubbed. Some one should provide a hankie to mopp up the nose filth.
    I bet you carry on by damaging office furniture before making good your escape with a yucca. Now really doesn’t that hit the mark???
    SEMPER FI!!

    P.S. I still don't get what any of this has to do with my original question I can only surmize that you all have a NEED to pick on the ugly American!
    Cheers what?

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    I am curious as to whether the engineers are familier with Closed-Cycle Air Refrigeration Technology: and if so do you think that it would be a better choice then R 290
    Mmmmm... getting back to this question, the Prof would assume it to be an application of the reversed Brayton cycle.

    Sure enough, the NIST document that chemi-cool found verifies this to be the case, and the Coldblast system noted in this document apparently improves efficiencies a bit with the use of a gas heat exchanger.

    Reversed Brayton cycles are inefficient, so do not expect R-729 to displace the use of HFC refrigerants anytime soon.
    Prof Sporlan

  15. #15
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    Gee Prof , At last some one is answring my question and sticking to the subject at hand WOW That was really hard for some of our European friends. I think their my friends...still! Any way I'm sure there all sweet guys and they have a right to their opionions...Just keep the personalities out of it Nes PA?
    Semper Fi!

  16. #16
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    Refrigeration systems can also use air as a working fluid. Air is environmentally benign, safe
    to use, and has an unlimited source. Refrigeration with air as the working fluid is based on
    the reverse Brayton Cycle. This thermodynamic cycle was discovered in the nineteenth century
    and has been utilized for air-based refrigeration units in commercial aircraft. It would probably get the most use in low temperature applications and is cost-effective for delivering ultra-cold refrigeration in the –70°F to –150°F temperature range to food processing, volatile organic ompound, and liquid natural gas applications.

    a fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi "A precipice in front, wolves behind"
    Last edited by shogun7; 27-02-2004 at 05:09 AM.

  17. #17
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    Mark get a life... and get off the soap box. Your really a drag on this web site and do not contribute anthing to the situation of what the purpose is. Actually I'm surprised the web master lets you go on with your rediculas nonsense. but be assured, I will respond to you every time you insist on commenting on me or my believes. Apprently you are suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder which is, in , case your pea brain doesn't understand, a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by a grandiose sense of self-importance. OH and buy the way don't expect me to fall for your nonsenscal little sementic traps such as the question "DO you beat your wife" WOW was that intellengent!!!
    And then to make matters worse you felt that you had to explain this devious atondre to a perceived moran such as yourself.
    Gee I'm having fun with this how about you?
    Semper FI

    "In fact, most clear minded rational and mature people will be thankful anytime their erroneous opinions about anything have been revealed as such and have been corrected for them.

    Rights cannot be kept without others fulfilling duties, no one has the right to their own opinion, people have a duty to see to it that everyone has the right opinion." This actually quite good! However, I believe you are misplaced you should have been a "professional philosopher"
    Last edited by shogun7; 27-02-2004 at 09:50 PM.

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    I think we all better calm down

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    And by the way get the name right


  20. #20
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    Markfiddy: I am more then willing to end this and If you reread my posts you will see that that is what I keep coming to but Mr. O'brion is playing one upmanship and untill the web master puts a stop to it I Intend to keep replying to you know who!
    Last edited by shogun7; 27-02-2004 at 09:57 PM.

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    Actually I'm surprised the web master lets you go on with your rediculas nonsense
    eh .... what .... who mentioned my name?

    Now lets not go getting me involved in this ol cat fight

    I tend to let things work out themselves unless there is blood getting spilled. One think about open forums are the cool way threads sometimes get taken over and spiral out of control, then eventually come winging back to the start of the thread and we eventually get the answer that was asked for LOL
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    webram,

    please step aside, I'm watching who will blink first!!

    chemi

  23. #23
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    Holy cow, Mr. Web Master you mean every time I ask a simple question I have to go through this??? Baker it's all your fault that i'm in this pickle when you mentioned MR. America (BUSH) I guess I lost my mind for an instant and put my foot in my mouth. NO but really I love Bush and what he stands for!! I Think!
    Semper fi for those of you who don't know what that means Good old USMC ( always faithful)
    OH and chemi.. don't hold your breath I wouldn't want your demise on my conscience Nes pa?
    Last edited by shogun7; 27-02-2004 at 10:33 PM.

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    Aiyub

    Mark fiddy .

    Marc 0 Brien.

    Get it right

  25. #25
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    Aiyub
    Good post actually I dont dislike any one or their opionions If you erad Bakers post he mentioned something about Americans other then Mr Bush And I was just responding to his remarks. If tou reread my response you will see that I didn't spend a lot of time on it and I believe I thanked him I felt that Marks responsive was ill concived and vindictive more so out of proportion for my remark and thats what I felt was the issue. For example: He begins a lashing with "IN these p arts etc. etc. Now he makes it me against you..get my drift! What do expect me to do ...Just sit back and let Mark tounge lash me? I can't do that because I not built that way> If you read Marks respons to me in the beginning, can you honestly say if you were in my place that you would sit back and say to yourself ...THERE I dederved that...Thanks Mark and shame on you Roger What really Really blows my mind is Mark saying That I don't have a RIGHT to my own OPINON so what should one do become catotonic and sleepwalk through life on maybe we should only believe what Marko has to say. I rest my case!!

    Semper FI

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    hi sogun7.

    no hard feelings, please, we are grown ups.

    now that the steam is out, relax, seat back and enjoy life.

    it cant be that bad.

    ok, so you got into a verbal fight with a smart irish man, whats the big deal?

    the winner here is not the one to say the last word.

    there are no winners.

    if you keep in that course, you will crash.

    what will you gain?

    we as in mature people, know when it is enough.

    lets get back to square one and leave this childish stuff behind.

    what do you say?

    chemi

  27. #27
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    chemi-cool
    Please believe me when I say that this is no big deal for me Actually I rather enjoy a brisk discussion Im retired 10 years now I live a good life have 10 grandchildren live in a nice house by the beach the whether is absolutely perfect 70*F OS. I am fairly healthy for my age, feel good and I love to help people in this business I have been involved 40 years and I teach PT at a community college So I love life and I enjoy all who are involved in our craft ...Even You Know who!
    Last edited by shogun7; 27-02-2004 at 11:06 PM.

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    I'm glad you get whats between the words

    with your permission I've read many articals today about....................... ah closed cycle air refrigeration.

    I think it will take some time for it to be a shelf product.
    looks simple enough to be adopted in the refrigeration industry.


    aiyub, the avatar is pert of a large canyon not far from where I leave. will change it once in a while so you can see the beuty of the desert.

    chemi

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    this one is down the same place, water is only in the winter

    chemi
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    and another one a few miles down the road.

    chemi
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    To expand on my answer to the original question, the issue comes down to a choice between a safer less efficient means of refrigeration (closed cycle air) and a less safe more efficient means (propane mechanical vapour recompression).

    The answer to this question of which is better differs from country to country. At the risk of upsetting those who don't like my generalisations, there are many in the US who like to ignore energy efficiency (SUVs) and are resistant to change. Europeans are far more active on the pollution and energy efficiency issues. I believe that most new domestic refrigerators sold in Germany use a HC refrigerant.

    The fact that the US has a significant amount of NH3 refrigeration shows that there are those who place efficiency above inherent safety.

    HFCs high global warming effect has already caused some European countries to introduce measures to minimise its use. There are already trial sites using a combination of R290 and R744 that have achieved better efficiency than if they were using R404A (admittedly at a higher capital cost).

    I am sure that for the next few years, significant sections of the US will try to ignore energy conservation and global warming initiatives, but they will eventually end up following the European trends.

    At this stage, the greenest technologies require B2 or A3 refrigerants, and I believe that we should learn how to handle these as safely as practical.
    Mark Baker

  32. #32
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    Mark baker,
    Your quote; "At the risk of upsetting those who don't like my generalisations, there are many in the US who like to ignore energy efficiency (SUVs) and are resistant to change". Forgive me but thats all they are: How could you possibly know what we think about Energy Conservation? ONE of my classes was called Energy management for college students in Air Conditioning and Refrigeration.When I was with the County of L.A. I was responsible for the county's energy management system, We had over 100 Major buildings on line. I am a Certified Energy Manager with Asso. of Energy Engineers and Energy is, was and has been a major player and great concern. The first year of operation we saved over 2 million dollers which we used to retrofit more buildings and on and on. The problem with genelalizations in that are just fluff in the real world! I hope that what I said won't be taken in the offence. Many of the members it seems to me to have some real misconceptions of this country please don't believe every thing you read and see on the tele or the paper. This is a very big country and it's very difficult to get it all sorted out. Even we who live here have a difficult time of it, we have 50 states and each have their own laws in addition to the feds and we are constantly battaling about various issues so you can't lump us all in the same catagory END!

    vade in pace "Go in peace "
    Last edited by shogun7; 28-02-2004 at 05:39 AM.

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    Personally, I dislike hearing that Americans think this, and Europeans think that, and Aussies think the other. People are people everywhere, in infinite variety. There is dissenting opinion in all countries everywhere, and the majority are sheep, their opinions formed by the media and the politicians, in all countries everywhere.

    Wherever you go, you are surrounded by fools. Stupidity has no nationality.

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    Non-defensive force is inherently wrong. Right is a subjective selection from amongst the remaining not-wrong options. And then there are necessary evils.
    Last edited by Gary; 28-02-2004 at 08:50 PM.

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    LOL... Maybe we should do a poll. Question of the day: Is Marc necessary?

  36. #36
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    The statement " you are either with us or against us" was a response to 9/11. That was in my mind when I said I supported Mr. Bush. Now I don't know what Mark got all bent out shape about and I care but never, I said never, would some one of his elk tell me what was on my mind. The irrational way he came at me with his response was what I couldn’t understand. Now he can double talk about various issues I bring up, but I’ll tell you who Mark really is. This is taken from his interests “Thinking, Arguing without losing, Solving, Inventing and One-upmanship”. Now really, does that sound like a person who can address another person in a calm and respectful way? I don’t think so!! Please read that a few times and ask yourself has Mark ever lost an argument/ probably not why, because it’s not in his nature to lose …even if he might be wrong. Now then, when he put me down like he did I of course humped my back and went after him. I will concede that my vocabulary is probably not as large as his but never the less He offended me much more then I felt was good cause. One can disagree agreeable don’t you think? Without stripping a man of his pride. The problem with Mark in my OPIONION!!!! Is that he always tries to intimidate his opponent. Why am I telling you all this? Because I don’t know the man and from what I see he is a verbal bully! Now then Mark! Your posts are so long that I find myself going to sleep so I can never quite finish them. ( old age I believe) Could you please repeat the last 15 or 20.That’s a good chap.

    PS About this remark please let me enlighten you

    "I really can't understand how the value of my contributions came into this thread. I mean, I don't recall speculating that anybody else's participation might be lacking significance"
    Now I can understand your not understanding, sooo that reference was made so you might possibly remember that this thread was for getting the answer to my question...which you have yet to address Why? read Marks interests..
    all those who are following this thread please leave your donations for Marks new web Page entitled "How to Verbally Rip Slash and Destroy Your Opponents" and please only send Pound Notes He needs the do ra me Are we having fun yet?
    .
    Last edited by shogun7; 29-02-2004 at 12:06 AM.

  37. #37
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    Thats my point marko your too busy with your interests. Gee You dont get it do you? 1. all I wanted was a smple answer
    2. I'm telling you again that I will not let you get away with talking to me in a demeaning mannerand from now on you will address me as SIR! or Your Highness
    3. You may impress others with your nonsence but not I
    and on and on.
    "Gee, you're pretending to be ignorant. I was quite clear about my argument" You cant be serious ol man you believe that was Crear? yes as mud .I'm good but I still can't read minds.
    I must say you do make my life a bit more exciting in that I know Marck will always be there if I haven't anything to occupy my mind In other words I know I always have someone who has my best interests at heart and is constantly trying to get me in his 12 step program. OH, I know maybe we can study your philosophy and in time become deciples. What?

    Look I think I'll hang up with you for now I need to join my friends on another web site who are as you would say mindless Americans LOL .. Nes Pa
    Cherr-o
    Semper Fi
    Last edited by shogun7; 29-02-2004 at 01:59 AM.

  38. #38
    shogun7's Avatar
    shogun7 Guest
    "At least I live in a country where anyone could become prime minister rather than a hypocritical country run by select families"
    ahha, see there the fact of the matter is that you just don't like the elite of this country Well I won't say any thing disparaging about after all you were and are our allies ...That is all but Marc.
    Easy Mark your skirt is showing and by the way "Jelousy will get you nowhere'" Besides I would tell Georgie not to let you come here and ruin a good thing...Hello!
    Semper Fi long live the rebublic!

  39. #39
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    rbartlett Guest
    as you know i've keep out of this arguement..but as far as a bush elite

    try

    http://www.bilderberg.org/skulbone.htm

    which will show that both presidential front runners are old friends and bonesman

    although if you go to the home page you will see the collusion between labour and tories is just as cosy..



    cheers

    richard

  40. #40
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    hi richard,

    ]
    if you put your hands in the fire, you might get burned.

    chemi

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    thanks marc,

    please keep doing that. it halps a lot.

    hope this was ok.

    chemi

  42. #42
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    rbartlett Guest
    one can only assume that's a question rather than an opinion as there was no supporting evidence..

    therefore i will attempt to clarify the matter once and for all by posting a picture of a hand that has been in contact with fire and the results will indeed conclude that marc is absloutely correct in that-

    'If you put your hands IN a fire you WILL be burnt.


    cheers


    richard
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    which will show that both presidential front runners are old friends and bonesman

    although if you go to the home page you will see the collusion between labour and tories is just as cosy..
    Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike conservatives, who are dictators and thieves.

  44. #44
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    shogun7 Guest
    "That was a joke, you fool. A question, not an opinion, you'll notice I said nothing to support it".


    LOL
    Now mark that wasn't very nice now was it but it only shows your juvinile must win one upmanship attitude So your a moron ...There what do you think of that!

    Members for those of you who have been beaten down by this idiot I will let in in on Marc secret stragity for your future engagements.
    Marc plays a game called mental chess wherein He set up the rules of engagement. Now the object is to set you up so he can destroy you as fast as possible. In order to survive this ploy you have to weave and bob, weave and bob, don't let him get a good shot at you
    . Let me explain What you do is you read his response but don't respond to his set up questions you pick and choose a few choice answers and strie back with your own controlled response. Simple really. You will notice that I never answered his question about why I love what George said " your either with us, or your against us" this was done deliberately because the moran refused to get involved with my question, I really do have an answer for the fool and it's really quite simple, however you might have to be born in this country , be an ex Marine and one who believes in military order and desipline. A man who should have died at least 3 times in his life time and was given up for a dead man walking. What Bush said was not that unusuall for an American President Our Republic was founded on the principle of you mess with me and I wiil push back For example, consider this quote "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or Ill(Either with us or against us) that we shall pay any price, bear any burdon, meet any hardship, support any friend,OPPOSE ANY FOE, to assure our survival and the success of liberty. (JFK)
    Now I will concede that is a nicer way of saying what Bush said but never the less the meaning is the same . Now Marc may try to distingush between the two but he won't change many minds in these mindless Amreicans, Yes Marc , when you decide to involve your self in a discussion on the issue of this thread ...Then I will answer the why of it with regards to your question In the meantime I consider you as a mushroom ...Keep you in the dark and fertilizer all over you. I await your response in hot anticipation. Yours truly, Roger the dodger
    Semper Fi!!

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    hi richard,

    this is realy great. there is nothing like a good sense of humour.

    chemi

  46. #46
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    If you put your hands IN a fire you WILL be burnt.
    Geez Mark what a profound statement, why Richard was so impressed he even posted a picture of a burnt Hand and Chemi WOW do you kiss Marks ring when he corrects you? My God people I think you are all mesmorized with this morans glow. No offence boys but you need to expand your horizons.
    This guy is a fraud and a narrow minded Yucca. END
    Chero


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    Last edited by shogun7; 29-02-2004 at 07:12 PM.

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    Post

    sometimes we need to make allowances for people who are not fluent in the english language.

    And the good old british humour isnt recognized.

  48. #48
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    rbartlett Guest
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkFiddy
    [B]sometimes we need to make allowances for people who are not fluent in the english language.




    steady mark -shoguns' doing his best...


    cheers

    richard

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    Some have no sense of humor, and the military mindset is the pecking order writ large, i.e. those above are my masters, not to be questioned, and those below are my slaves. God help anyone who points out that the Emperor has no clothes.

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    [i]
    OH and chemi.. don't hold your breath I wouldn't want your demise on my conscience Nes pa? [/B]
    Is this Latin or French?

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