Some thoughts of me...

[Peter_1]

I already mentioned it in some PM wit MarkFiddy, Bones and with Steve-I-Evans.

As some of you read in previous posts, I’m not that certain anymore of the future in Belgium.
I don’t know what the situation is in other countries for the moment but here in Belgium business is going from bad to worse. Most of all what is related to production is moving out of Belgium. We had serious troubles with Ford in Genk (3000 jobs gone), in my village Stiga (lawnmowers) moved to there homebase in Italy, Daikin will move a lot of his production to Hungary, Renault closed some years ago (500 jobs gone), Sabena (Belgium Airline company) and now Sobelair (airliners) went bankrupt and a lot of other smaller companies, the Railway (State owned) is making tremendous losses each year, so is the Post,…...

There where huge problems with the noise DHL made each night while their airplanes where taking off in Zaventem (Belgium National airport where DHL has his European headquarter) The minister, responsible for the environment had to leave because she made decisions concerning the noise in Zaventem pro environment (she decide a max take off per night and other different take off routes over Brussels) but contra employment (DHL threatened to leave Belgium)
Because she left, there was no majority anymore whereby we almost had no government anymore.
At the last elections, the greens had not enough votes and had to left the government.
There is a agreement with the peoples of Zaventem and the separate government of the Brussels capital and surrounding communities where there may not be more then 25.000 night flights per year. (now they are at +/- 22.000)
At the moment we just have a new minister for the environment with still hanging the dossier of night noise. Now in the hottest of the discussions how they will solve this problem, DHL announced that they will or want to increase their capacity in Zaventem and that they need for this an agreement for 35.000 (!) night flights per year.
But… they will create 3.000 jobs direct in DHL and they predicted/calculated also that not directly this will led to 15.000 to 20.000 new jobs. They will not move to the existing regional airports.
The whole debate is now changed from noise to employment. What a dilemma especially because there are laws or regulations from the WHO (World Health Organisation) relating to noise and minimum sleeping time per night which the government has to follow.
Only told you this recent not finished story, try to explain how short sighted some are, what is more important, jobs or the environment or how can both live in some sort of harmony? A difficult decission to make.
DHL expects an answer before summer. Will be followed.

We are ranked as one of the highest countries in the world for taxes and costs for labour.
At last, government is seeing there has to be done something. They sat together in the Parliament (after Ford and Sobelair) and took drastic decisions (try to lower the cost for night shifts, peoples who are to long unemployed and refuse work will lost there financial support from the state, there will be an enormous control on black labour (correct expression?) especially in constructing (where a lot of them are working with low paid foreigners), peoples with a low education, desperately seeking a job will get a bonus if they find work, they will be paid to learn another job,…. Perhaps you heard in the news that they also have made the decision that all of those who have black money outside Belgium – where they haven’t paid never taxes for years – may now return in a period of 6 months all their money back to Belgium with only 5% “taxes” A sort of fiscal/financial amnesty without any prosecution in court. This all to feed the Belgium treasury.
All these measures which have been taken with good intentions will not make that the companies who left Belgium will come back anymore.

We also have another fact – not only in Belgium but mainly in the richer part of Europe- that the society is becoming old. We have a special Dutch word (which means society is becoming grey) for this but I didn’t found the English translation. There are not enough newborn babies to support existing social systems in the short future (10 to 20 years).
You have to know that in Belgium the taxes of those who works are spend for the financing of the whole social system.

There are already studies since the 80’s where famous professors predicted with well-calculated theories that till 2010 the whole system will collapse due to increasing length of life and decreasing births.
I talked about this several times with bookkeepers from big companies, or bookkeepers who do the books for several companies, with trade persons, industrial managers and almost ll of them think the same…. Belgium and other European countries are sinking away and the prosperity will become more equal in Europe: we will have to learn to be satisfied with less and those who had always had less (East European countries) will become a higher living standard as they used to have in the past. I have no problem with this at all.
Pure by coincidence, I discussed this same topic some weeks ago with our young (31 years and youngest senator ever at the age of 24) Minister of State Van Quickenborne who I met. Even he and his younger colleagues were aware of all these problems and had the same vision as I have and they were just preparing a new direction in his leading Belgium party-executive VLD. (Wherefrom Guy Verhofstadt is our prime Minister) They launched it last Thursday as “VLD: Vision 2016”
He was very happy he had that talk with my colleagues and me because it was a consolidation of his own ideas.

We discussed in this forum the attitude of our youth and also the fact that they won’t learn a technical job anymore.

We don’t have also an own product, we don’t have oil, minerals, .. Look for example how dependent the US is from the Middle East. If they should shut off the oil from there, the whole US economy should collapse in some months. Or why all that war for such a little countries as Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan,…

What also has become a wrong attitude – I don’t know if this only in Belgium – the egocentric attitude of the peoples:’If it’s good for me, then others have to take it like I wish’ or ‘if I’m ok, that’s all I need, and all the rest can go to hell’ Its always me, me, me…
People don’t talk to each other anymore; some of them don’t know the name of their neighbours. They’re jealousy all around, they won’t work hard for their money…

So, you can imagine why so many Belgians are leaving this country and never come back.
In the late 50’s and begin 60’s, their was a massive emigration to Canada, now it’s worser they said in the news on the television.

Did you know that Norway made an offer to the Belgians - those who are educated or are well trained in any kinf of profession or have lot of practical experience - whereby we can move to there and were we receive 1.000 m² ground for free to build a house. They also help you to find the right job.

Therefore, since a year now, I’m seriously thinking about leaving Belgium, far away, outside Europe. I should do this not only for myself, but more for the future of my kids but even more for my future grandkids.
That’s also the vision of my wife and 2 of my 3 kids (my daughter of 18 has a boyfriend here)
We don’t see often our family (once a year with Newyear), sometimes a phone call,
We have a quote ‘You chose your friends but not your family” and there is a lot of truth in it.

We were thinking to move to New Zealand. Great nature, we think a more open vision…
I have a neighbour who worked there 3 or 4 times for some months for a Belgium company.
It’s also very outstanding, but I talked about my idea with a supplier of us (electrical components) and he knew now 4 of his customers who will leave Belgium, not particularly New Zealand. My neighbour left of me, a building contractor just need the ‘yes’ from his wife and he is gone (she won’t) , my neighbour who lives just in front of me (it’s him who worked in New Zealand several times) just came back (in December) from Canada where he has founded a company. The intention is to leave here in 2005.
What can I expect, am I more daydreaming, is New Zealand in fact the same as Belgium, are there plenty jobs over there, will there be a future for my kids, ..
My daughter said that this is my midlife crisis and that this feeling will pass away but it isn’t.
My wife was thinking of fabrication (very small) selling of Belgium pralines and I will find my way somewhere in the refrigeration industry I think. I have expertise but mainly with European products (and used to calculate everything in SI units J )

I searched between the members but didn’t found any of New Zealand.
So, I leave this discussion open and expect a lot of reactions from all you around the whole world.

[Bones]

you could come to aus :P as long as i dont have to support your future kids/grandkids through welfare lol :P.

my father and i were talking about a smillar issue this evening, i used to race karts and our old kart track got closed down because there was too much noise, the closest street was a good 3kilometers away build 20+ years after the kart track. we used to have one race a month which went from 10am to 3pm on a sunday, and the track prospered since the mid 60's apparently (way before my time lol) till the mid 90's. until someone who bought a house in the street complained about the noise once a month, with 7 names on a patition, 4 of which i'm sure lived in that house... in the end they closed down our track... $1000s dollars of machinery no were to race them...

we as a club door knocked that street along with other streets within a similar vacinity, to see if we were upsetting anyone before trying to fight the councils decision - the replies we mostly got were, what noise and you race karts over there?? with our evidence and people willing to support us who lived next door to these people we were knocked back because "we have already made our decision".

the main problem we believe today is that minority groups protest and get laws and regulations passed without knowledge to the majority who these new laws/regulations/senctions apply too.

if i build a house in a street accross the road from a speedway track, what right do i have to complain about noise? and get the place closed down, if i built consiously knowing what was accross the road!

the whole petition thing's are are not worth a crock if you ask me, the only people who sign them are the ones who agree... what about the people who want 'that' or 'something' to stay the same? they dont ask you to sign your name to keeping something the way it is do they?!

[rbartlett]

peter

britian is is experiencing a very simular thing will loads and loads going to au/nz (remember the thread about emigrating to au recently)

i went through a very simular thought process -even to to getting my visa for australia..(which btw will get you access into NZ) so if you want to go i can help you aviod the pitfalls and lower the cost...

i made some contacts and got job offers etc..jobs are very easy to come by out that way in our game (esp for some one of your quality) and the lifestyle seems pretty good -if you can afford it..

although the point can be made if jobs are easy to come by there's usually a reason..poor wages, poor conditions etc etc

our visa agent was from NZ his dad runs a fridge company in wellington and when he found out i did fridge said "i can get you a job tomorrow as my dad is always looking for skilled guy's"




although both nz/au are very close knit -they don't like foreigners (for general jobs if one hundred expats and one australian apply for one job..guess who gets the job???)

the locals will -of course- deny it but there is a site for people attempting to go (and gone) and that is the general attitude found by them..

http://www.britishexpats.com (not just for brits btw)



however the grass is not always greener..several have gone -and come back because it wasn't quite like they believed it would be..

the australians in particular tend to be fiercely loyal about their country and will avoid the issues like drugs gangs unemployment housing booms poor wages high taxation etc etc and concentrate on the 'surfs up' +'shrimp on the barbee' aspect (which is what we want to hear anyway)

however europe will decline as a major force over the next 50 years and the world will be driven by asia -mainly by china this will help au/nz as they are slowly being absorbed by asia anyway..

all in all i do believe au/nz can offer a 'good life' but it's not all fun in the sun..


cheers


richard

[chemi-cool]

all the world is having economical problems. I have seen in local papers advertisments paid by australia and..... england looking for people to imigrate there with a lot of promises of better life in all aspects.

in the late 70th I was in europe working illeagally all over the place. even spent a few nights in a british jail and kicked out.

I did all that to see if I can make another place my home.
it didnt work and I came back and I feel great here with all the problems, buses exploding, a lot of violence, un emploiment and all the problems which the western world suffer from.

personaly, no where anyone will call me "a foreigner" , no one will make fun of my accent and nobody will call my kids names.

this is home!!

I have worked more than 30 years to secure my family and still do and will never give in.
starting to move is endless and you will have to burn many bridges behind you and going back is not always pissible.

so, I am happy where I am and only trying to make it a better place to live in.

mykids is a different story and they will decide where do they want to live.

chemi

[rbartlett]

funnily enough my mum flew out to china yesterday so i will get some info about how it's progressing..

china has been iin the 'world leaders' thoughts since the '80's...just don't get me started on the global warming conspiricy and it's links to china...


on a lighter note-
glad to see the atkins diet is starting to work marc..

cheers

richard

[Peter_1]

Hi mark,

I posted almost a similar thought in the past but forgot where, doesn’t matter also.
I have a self made guy in my flying class (he is 35 years, is now 5 year self employed and he's doing almost 25.000.000 million Euros 's in a year and I'm not joking)
He own 6 companies, employs +/- 100 peoples but the one with the biggest profits and least peoples working in it (3 persons) is a company who does trading with China.
I had several discussions/talks with him about all the companies who leaves now Belgium to East Europeans countries wit lower wages.
I mentioned this already in another threat here in this forum, but he predicted that the real big industrial shock for us will be if China will open more and more his frontiers and shall make products for us with European specs, European quality…. the biggest industrial shock we will encounter ever happened.
And this is not that far away anymore, I think we all will see it happen once retired and perhaps even sooner.
You can't stop it anymore. Look at Ford who's investing billions in China for the moment, Renault the same, ...

[andrewuk]

asia is no doubt on the up,europe and america will alway's dominate in technology,then eventually send it to cheep counties to be made,as asia developes more and more they will have the same problems as the current developed countries ,then there will only be the black hole of africa which will be the last source of cheap labour .remember things go in cycles.

as europes population slowly drops there will not be enough people to do all the manufactureing job's ,the high cost off liveing is one of the first indication's of this ,however in the case of england and others asthe ulation drop's so will the preassure on house price's and land so for our great grand children it may not be all that bad .
as a recent immagrant to england ,there is a lot of oppertunity here compared whith other places.

[Abe]

The way I see it, the most important aspect is environment and your personal feel good factor

You need to feel at one with :

Environment: If you like your surroundings, ie: the landscape, the buildings, the earth around you, the people, youre in the right place

Weather: If you are comfortable with the weather, be it hot or cold, dusty, wet or damp.........If the particular weather of the place you are in does not depress you, You will be a success

Politics: Can you operate within the political system where you are

To me, these are the essential ingredients what determines, Is this my home?

The most successful people are those who find comfort in all three areas.

The rest are in transit, looking over their shoulders, and being a nomad is not pattern for success.

Look to the present, and build with an eye for the forseable future, but not as far as your grandkids future.

You need to be strong, for your children to feed off your yolk.

Now.

It is not wrong to seek new and fresh pastures, in fact it is admirable

As the saying goes, try, try and try again

Go out...........go see the place for yourself

Put yourself on that land, feel it, breathe it, see it

You might like it, it may feel like home. If it does........Apply

Dont delay.............laws are in a state of constant motion.

When we strart thinking/ worrying about the situation of the day.......we do not put in maximum effort, we do not strategise, we do not invest

Our lives are strategic, investments are our security and safety net , effort is compulsory

Find the nest which is warm, dry and comfy. Wake up to each new day and the hairs on your hand should bristle, as that first fresh intake of air into your lungs makes you feel.......alive and happy for a wonderful new day.

Will we ever find that utopia??

[Abe]

It is natures way.........

Nature always gives strengths............and a weakness

The lion is the most powerful and feared animal in the wild
He lacks stamina

The hyena is even stronger then the lion, its jaws can crack bone and he can chase its prey for 30 miles
It has a weak back

The croc is patient, elusive, quiet and canny
He has a weak belly

The snake is mighty poisonous
He lacks the limbs to grapple its prey

The cheetah is fast.....
It lacks body stature

I can go on.........and on......

Apply this principle to countries

Britain is the trendy, first world economy, with strong financial muscle, social, educational hub of the world

Can you stomach the dreary weather

Africa has the climate, natural resources, it should in effect with its wealth be the top continent

Has a people and a political leadership who have no aspiration for progress

So where is utopia??

Its in your heart, no place will have everything........it will have some, and then again, a pitfall

If you can learn to live, and come to terms with a place, and control your fears and anxieties........passage through this short life will be easier .

[rbartlett]

my feelings back in '98...


Search Result 1
From: R. Bartlett (r.bartlett@virgin.net)
Subject: Re: global warming scorecard
View: Complete Thread (13 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.hvac
Date: 1998/09/21


well john

I hope you looked at the web site I highlighted. If not I'll post it up
again. there are a few annexes on the site to look at not just the one I
posted.

try http://www.vision.net.au/~daly/

please read this site

the recent weather extremes are just normal weather patterns given that
we've just had a El nino effect.

there will always be these happenings going on around the world
note- there are more people to report them and more instruments to record
them

remember it's only noted if people die -we now have a much larger population
so more will die etc

but the plain truth (please note I am not in the payment of the oil
companies etc) is that in the past records of 'disasters' of this kind
were -and always -will be happening on and off somewhere in the world

it's just that if someone mentions them as connected to anything you self
delude to believe it must be happening.

over here a few yr. ago everybody was talking a lot of a global cooldown
(the next iceage is overdue) so people were looking around for "proof"-and
found it in several ways

once g.ments asked scientists to find "proof" of global warming and paying
them huge sums to find it they naturally obliged -think about it, if someone
paid you $1,000,000 per year I'd bet you'd find it-although it may take me
several years given my lifestyle!!

remember "he who pays the piper calls the tune"

as an example if you ask anybody over 30 yr. old in the UK they always wish
for the "white Christmas" they had as a kid -EVERY YEAR- when in fact we've
only had around 6 this century

another:-

when a big plane crash occurs the next thing all the plane crashes around
the world are reported and we all get scared to fly as they seem to be
literally falling out the skys

people will delude themselves if there's enough others telling them it's
true

the plain fact is that g/w has been brought up into existence to keep the
Asian market (ESP china) from developing
the plain truth is that when China has fully mobilised itself the whole
balance of power will shift from the first to the third world
i.e. from us to you.

The west does not want china to get to the same level as the USA as the
world simply has not the resources to provide the raw matl's it would need
to make 2 billion cars,t.v's fridge's a/c's etc... let alone the
electricity/oil to run them

eventually it will lead to a power struggle and perhaps
war-note China once stated "the next world war will be fought on American
soil" that rung big alarm bells in Washington

this you may feel is off the subject a bit and a little paranoid but it is
relevant.

As you know I've studied this topic for sometime and the more you look into
it the more it smells

please don't anybody take my word for it (or the g.ments) you are all on the
net and they can't regulate it so hunt around as questions -try to get
someone who believes it to provide evidence that would stand up in court.
numerous e/m's to greenpeace etc results in a deafening silence

we should all be looking at ourselves for allowing them to wreck our
industry with all these rush measures etc

anyway enough already.

sorry but I get v.irate about this issue

cheers

richard

[Bones]

well, concerning g/w some friends and i did a little research at school a few years ago and we found some interesting information regarding the magnetic poles on earth.

i cant remember exactly how many years it takes now... 100 million or something but anyway every 100 million or so years the poles change, north becomes south and south becomes north. at the moment magnetic north is 4' or 20' off (cant remember which).

on another point, i also remember hearing stuff about g/w and the effects that the large polar ice caps would have on the world if they melted, ie. flooding countries and islands with a low sea level. i believe if all the ice melted the sea level would remain unchanged, even possibly slightly less considering frozen ice displaces more water then liquid water water itself.

at any point also, the world has the same water content, its just where it gets distributed too that changes.

[chemi-cool]

hi richard,

your post was music to my ears.
that makes two of us with the same thoughts about GW.
I've been following john daly since he had uploaded his website.

sadly, john passed away but I hope somaone will continue his mission.

the whole GW stuff smelled like a rotten egg from day one.

as you said, the name of the game is money and very big one.

I wrote several years ago a story that tells my point of view about GW, new refrigerants and my personal opinion about the bigb players in our field.
I wanted to publish it in RAC magazine but they refused saying something about not being able to publish something against the big advertisers, which we all know who they are.

as you said, "he who pays the piper calls the tune"
its a lost battle. our mission is to say what we feel and think about it when ever we have the chance.

I'm glad you brought the subject up.

chemi

[RogGoetsch]

To believe that the actions of billions of humans over hundreds of years would have no effect on the CO2 level of the planet is harder for me to accept than the concept of global warming.

Since the industrial revolution we have been pulling stored carbon out of the earth in the form of coal, oil and gas, turning it into CO2 and dumping it into the atmosphere.

During the same period of time we have been wiping out millions of acres of forest, trees which, like all plant life, draw carbon back out of the atmosphere.

If this hasn't changed the equilibrium of this closed system, I will be very much surprised.

And the melting ice predicted to raise sea level is presently locked up in polar ice caps well above sea level. If this continues to melt faster than it is deposited, sea level would have to rise.

(And ice doesn't displace more water than liquid water. It displaces its own mass, the rest floats above. Fill a water glass with ice and water to the very top. Even with ice floating above the rim of the glass, it will not overflow when the ice melts.)

[rbartlett]

buring of fossil fuels amount to less than 1 % of the total airborn carbon..(actually about 0.65-0.75%)

still find it hard to believe??

it has been shown that, for example that the USA is a net producer of global warming carbon emmissions and has one of the lowest population density of the western world...-bet greenpeace didn't tell you that either..

cheers

richard

[Peter_1]

Can you explain that a little bit more Richard?
You let me read things - and yhey may be true - I thought in the past that it was otherwise.

[baker]

Just so Marc O'Brien can join the discussion, global warming is like religion. A prudent person would look at the odds and consequences and choose to participate. Pick the most popular religion and go with it - the odds are better.

Where I live, the likely consequences of GW are slight, although they do forecast better wine.

However, each night when I look at the global weather forecasts on the idiot box and see the differences between British and Baltic temperatures, the impact of the Gulf Stream is hard to ignore. One of the anticipated consequences of GW is the Gulf Stream stopping.

I hope you like Russian weather, Richard.

[Bones]

(And ice doesn't displace more water than liquid water. It displaces its own mass, the rest floats above. Fill a water glass with ice and water to the very top. Even with ice floating above the rim of the glass, it will not overflow when the ice melts.)

well, out of my own oservations when i freeze water say 1000mL (1 litre)when it is frozen it displaces more like 11-1200mL when in its frozen state, which would make millions or billions of frozen litres of water in the north and south look like one great big extra puddle waiting to happen, which it wont.

i get your point, knowing exactly how much ice mass is on the continents above sea level might change my mind, but leaning toward my first point - as the poles move so to do the seasons and apparently under iceland years back they found tropical plants go figure.

basically i think g/w is a crock of doggy poop, cows burp methane for christs sake, if anything its possibly the building secture and human natures own personal habits of having homes built out of wood, and nice furniture made out of wood and a nice bed... you get my point. now there is nothing wrong with this as long as you "replant" the vegitation to soak up the co2... the worlds just slightly outa equilibrium atm and will more then likely continue to be.

its like what this poster said i read once, if i can remember it all. "only after the last fish has been caught, the last stream contaminated will we find out you cannot eat money" how true, especially if you think about who is pushing these ideas.

[rbartlett]

Originally posted by Peter_1
Can you explain that a little bit more Richard?
You let me read things - and yhey may be true - I thought in the past that it was otherwise.

this shows population density by country note usa is very near the bottom,,


http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/i.../densite2.html


an interesting read


http://www.vision.net.au/~daly/history.htm


cheers

richard

[Abe]

When I am fazed with questions or situations I cannot understand but see happening, I always go back to the good ole book.....

Now doesnt it say somewhere in the bible.......and other good books from the same author, Torat, Koran......something about the axis of the world changing towards the end.........

Im just imagining " mark" squaffing and splurting his coffee as he reads this!!! Lol

No seriously.........even if the earth moved just a fraction of a degree......wouldnt the whole weather pattern change??

[Bones]

Aiyub, me thinks it would and i think thats what we are seeing presently... i just dont have 100's of millions of dollars to research to prove the outcome scientificaly, this is why most governments would just fold up and say yeh whatever you say mr scientist dr,phd other initial gabage, what must we do to reverse it?

well the guys who fund our reasearch wan you to... i mean *cough* *cough* dont do this!

[rbartlett]

the earth has a continuously changing weather pattern -it's only humans that think it should be and remain constant..

however bones you have got it round the wrong way..it's the politicans that are leading the GW issue not the scientists

ie if a politician says to a scientist "look here's 1 million dollars find me 'proof' of GW"

and the scientist says "I can't"

then the politician answers "in that case I'll find a scientist who can and give him the million dollars"

then the scientist must decide if he 'can' -and gets the million (he like all of us have mortgages cars and a lifestyle to fund

or can't -in which case he stays a poor humble scientist open to abuse for doubting the general concensus..

cheers

richard

[chemi-cool]

richard,

if it helps, you are absolutly right.

wasnt there years ago a programme on bbc 4 about it?
I remember vaguly something.

chemi

[Abe]

I have been bleating now for goodness klnows how long.......Theres nowt wrong with R12 R22 and my favourite, R502

You see, the big mutltinational chemical companies strategise.......3rd world economies now dumping cheap gases onto market........lets protect ourselves........

Develop new "designs" make old ones illegal, Millions or trillions new equipment to replace old redundant stuff.......Lovely dolly in our pockets

Its the age old trick in marketing.......new model on the market with a few refinements......in our case the new models are disasters


So I reckon, scientests paid off to come out with dissertations and Phd;s to tell us about hole in ozone.

This is how it goes.......So Mr PHD professor.......you want a fully paid up holiday in Antartica........you need money for the base there......ok......heres the dosh........but your report must say theres a bloody big hole...........and this substance is at fault.

[andrewuk]

money money money thats what drives the policie's of the world not third world poverty ,disease,money.if you are going to cost big companies money and then hurt the country(s) they are from then watch out they will kick your ass,if you are a third world back water that is spare change they don't give a damn.
if we ahd carried on useing R12,22,502.but pushed to reclaim and recycle it more we would have cut emission's by a huge margin ,then we wouln't have to blow all that extra dosh on new better? replacements .anyway we are just the low life's at the end of the food chain what do we now?

[Abe]

Originally posted by andrewuk
.anyway we are just the low life's at the end of the food chain what do we now? [/B]

What we do is this..........
Next time the puppet , dishevelled, anoraked , unshaven weirdo scientests braving icy winds aboard their floating labs on ice, come out with drivel to the tune of their pinstriped paymasters......

We act together as a force, we shout, we cry........

We do not act as pawns.....

[chemi-cool]

morning aiyub.

this remined me of an old joke and I will do my best to translate it:

in one house there was a cat which was to smart for the mice who shared the same house.
the cat always couhgt a mouse at a time and made their life hell.
one evening all the hungry mice had a meeting to decide what to do. after a short while, a young mouse came out with an idea " lets hang a bell on the cats neck and when the cat comes we can here and run"
all the mice loved the idea and wre real happy until one older mouse asked them" who volunteers to hang the bell on the cats neck".

or as it was said in a western " i fyou wanna talk, talk - if you wanna shoot, shoot"

any suggestions how to do it?

chemi

[Abe]

Ok, so we are the meek, in awe of the real fire power.....
We are the sheep, the herd.......one lion , even a cub, and we all scatter
Its psychology, we dont possess the brain power, the station, the calibre to question our masters.
We do as were told.....

I come again to the age old argument, industry requires a fridge tech to be at most a Diploma holder

I say no......we need a University Degree Course in Refrigeration. Tell me one University which runs such a course.....

If you want a suggestion from me...........Thats my suggestion.
So when the time comes to shoot..........we pull the trigger

[chemi-cool]

well aiyub,

as I see the course of things, no university will spacialize in refrigeration.

it is a technical short study for tech's and four years in university for 1st degree engineers.

we have here something in between for two years which I have done.

I belive that in future, most big organizations will have their own tech's and less on the independent market.

such action will push the salaries down and less people will go to study and so on...........

with the language dificulties you get my drift

so, at least we do not argue about one thing, it all come down to money. and the big guys will decide at the end.

we are the expendable soldiers. so lets try to make the most of it.

chemi

[chemi-cool]

thinking about it Aiyub,

why dont we start a new thread about revealin the truth on the phaseout of our beloved refrigerants.

chemi

[baker]

I like a good conspiracy story as much as anyone else. However, I have yet to hear one that has any legs. I believe that we are better off if we follow the old maxim - "Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by stupidity".

When I was a student, PCBs were safe. Even now, if I had to choose whether to be thrown into a vat of PCBs or Petrol, I would opt for the PCBs since I would escape relatively unharmed. PCBs just aren't as safe as they were originally advertised. But these days PCBs are put into the same boat as ascenic and cyanide, when in reality they are safer than petrol. Not that PCBs are harmless, it is just that petrol is nastier but we treat it with indifference because it is so common.

I doubt if a bit of CFC in the atmosphere would do much harm. However, the obscene quantities that were being produced and released into the atmosphere can't be harmless.

Our British friends will remember Professor Magnus Pike. He shocked a few people when he stated that being locked up in a McDonalds store for a year wouldn't do you much harm. What he didn't say was that you would have to eat in moderation.

Unfortunately we humans don't like moderation. If we had used CFCs frugially, they would still be with us, and there wouldn't have been a Montreal Protocol.

The CFC ban was caused by greed and stupidity, not corporate conspiracy.