Draft Beer System Help

[PAXFREON]

Hello All..A customer of mine called me last night and said is Tap Beer system was not working leaking beer and cooling properly...I never really got into this side of the business. The system has 5 taps. I believe it is an old fashioned "contact system" The bottom of the box where the beer lines come up from the walk-in is totally rotted away. and the drain pan under the taps is draining into the box, then onto the floor.. "a real piece of Sh@t". He just bought this bar/tavern about 3 months ago and wants to replace the system. I was hoping someone could provide me some insight as far as price quoting and new system installation.

Thanks and Happy New Year

Paul
PAX Commercial Refrigeration

[rbartlett]

we always leave this stuff to the brewers as they (over here) will put the lot in new for little or no money..

cheers

richard

[Mark]

Hello PAX*****
Certainly in the UK there are a number of options for one example a "python" system .This is an insulated box in which houses two sets of pipes submersed in water.One being the heat exchanger in which the beer/beverage passes through.Warm beer in cool beer out
The second being an "icebank" set of pipes,which cools the water in the box by heat transfer from the ice encapsulated pipes. These "pythons" often have some form of water agitator incorporated in the" bath" for obvious reasons.
Depending on size and capacity, the condensing unit is either integrally or remotely mounted (there are a number of different types).This could be used as sole means of fluid cooling or a primary pass by.
It is called a "python" because a number of plastic fluid pipes are bunched up in a large tubular shape and individually colour coded, these are finally encapsulated in insulation material.
As for pricing i would enquire to the local beer or beverage agent to see if they can come up with anything.
regards mark

[Abe]

Pythons, are the norm here in the UK
Wonder what they do elsewhere
The Breweries are great about it here, take care of the lot, whole install
Maybe a hunch for you Pax, I remember you mentioning biz being a bit slow at moment, "what if" u carry out some research here in UK and take the "idea" back to States

Who knows........our systems might be just the thing for you guys in the New World

[Peter_1]

Originally posted by markfiddy
Hello PAX*****
a "python" system .This is an insulated box in which houses two sets of pipes submersed in water.One being the heat exchanger in which the beer/beverage passes through.Warm beer in cool beer out
The second being an "icebank" set of pipes,which cools the water in the box by heat transfer from the ice encapsulated pipes. These "pythons" often have some form of water agitator incorporated in the" bath" for obvious reasons.
Depending on size and capacity, the condensing unit is either integrally or remotely mounted (there are a number of different types).This could be used as sole means of fluid cooling or a primary pass by.
It is called a "python" because a number of plastic fluid pipes are bunched up in a large tubular shape and individually colour coded, these are finally encapsulated in insulation material.

As the first poster of 2004, a happy New Year Marc and all the other members.
Attached a file how we woke up this morning after celebrating the Newyear (slept only 5 hours). Shot of our garden. Everywhere snow.

A python is a little but different in Belgium.
Same setup as you describe: heat exchaner (copper) on the sides which acts as an ice bank, a second for the beer (alu or inox) but the difference....the water agitator with a small propeller has on its underside a little build-in pump.

This pump pumps the icecold water in the plastic tubes, wrapped insulated together with the beer tubes, the Python. The plastic pipes are going just to the point where they tap the beer and it flows then back to the cooler (eventually on distance)
So is the whole Python constant cooled, the beer remain cooled even efter a whole night standstill.

The farther the cooling units stands of the point of sale, the more need there is for a Python system. Otherwise you lose always your firts beers and it becomes hot while flowing along the long tubes.

Peter.

[chemi-cool]

hi peter,

happy new year!!

please, can you post a picture of that beer cooling system. i am interested in how it works and the lay out of the pipes.

we dont get here good draught so I only drink bottles.

thanks
chemi

[Peter_1]

Hey Chemi,

Here already some links

http://www.duotank.be/nlprod1.html
it's in Dutch click on the picture.

http://www.gamex.cz/vf4.html
I only saw the dry system: the necessary different beer tubes with the two watercooling tubes lines (everything is plastic), wrapped in Armaflex.

http://www.flowmeter.be/flowmeters.htm
Nothing to do with python lines but a well known Belgium company.

The type of the pump is P2E076-AK05-16( 1850 rpm/and 729 l/h) or P2E076-AC06-16v ( 2500 RPM - 800 l/h)
Did a search (P2E076) and landed at http://www.beercom.ru/barnohl1.html

and

http://www.mebrom.com/gasco/pdf/uk/j/2003J004-en.pdf
On the top right of the page, you can see the pumps

We can buy these agitators/pumps at all our wholesalers (EBM + mounted pump) but they make the holiday bridge till Monday.
I already sended a mail with the question to send me some information on paper.
On the Website of EBM, I haven't found anything that relates to these pumps.

I once saw in a schoolbook (never in real life) a beer cooler made as follow: a sort of very small well insulated pressure tank. In that tank a inox coil where-in the beer was flowing. Surrounding that coil and in the pressure tank was the liquid *****. On the outlet an EPR valve, inlet in the tank via a TEV. So they needed no water to cool the beer, the liquid ***** was the cooling medium. The only thing they did was maintaining a presetted low pressure at a corresponding temperature of +/- 0°C. As soon as there was (warmer) beer flowing, pressure rises and the compressor started to cool down the receiver. If I find the drawing, I will post it here.
It was a good invention because you can make it very small to fit underneath the counter.

[Bones]

sounds like a pretty good description similar to a temprite system peter...

got any pics or remember enough to draw a rough schematic?

[chemi-cool]

hi peter,

thanx very much. I get the picture now.
next time I'm in Scotland will give it a closer look.
it gives me a business idea. I can only start pushing it into the market after seeing the unit working and make the adjusments to our climet.

chemi

[angryk]

The python sounds similar to most beer systems i've worked on as well. One piece chiller, evaporator is submerged in glycol/water mix that is pumped through the plastic lines wrapped around beer lines and insulated. T/stat bulb senses glycol/water mix.

[Peter_1]

Originally posted by angryk
.... evaporator is submerged in glycol/water mix that is pumped through the plastic lines wrapped around beer lines and insulated. T/stat bulb senses glycol/water mix.

Are you sure you can add glycol? The purpose of our system is that we build up an icebank around the bin which act as a buffer (through is latent heat) in case of high load.

If you add glycol to the system, the solution will freeze up to a much lower temperature which can cause freezing up of the beer in the lines submerged in the glycol.

Many of my colleagues make the mistake to add glycol (or salt) because they see ice and they think that this is wrong. But it should be ice always.

We use an icebank thermostat which senses the thickness off the ice.

Chemi,

I will arrange it that I have my digital camera with me and as soon as i have the opportunity (we don't do beverage coolers very often), I will make a picture of it.

A strange remark: while searching for a picture for you of the pump/agitator combination, I found the Gasco link (pdf) which I sended to you. But this pdf file and in fact the whole catalogue of that company is an exact copy of a Belgium wholesaler of mine. I reported this to him and they weren't not aware of this. They will contact a lawyer for this I think.

Peter

[Peter_1]

Originally posted by Bones
sounds like a pretty good description similar to a temprite system peter...

got any pics or remember enough to draw a rough schematic?

You mean a schematic of the python line Bones?

[Mark]

peter

Is glycol not antifreeze then?

mark

[Peter_1]

Originally posted by markfiddy
peter

Is glycol not antifreeze then?

mark

Hi Mark,

Of course, it's antifreeze Mark. I think I didn't explained it correct or I'm completely wrong all those years.

But as we do it, we never add any antifreeze (whatever product) in the water. We only use pure water.
If you let it become an ice bank on the sides, with the agitator you will have a water temperature of +/- 1°C to 2°C, just above the freezing point of beer. Also, beer taste the best around 2 to 4°C. If you go to low in temperature, you will have trouble with the foam on top of the beer.

Yes I know, British don't like the foam on top of it , but in Belgium, you always must have 2 to 3 cm foam. Temperature and pressure on the beer vessels are then very important.

But if you add antifreeze, the ice will have a temperature of -5°C and you will have then a liquid water/antifreeze mix (in the middle of the bin where the beer coils are located) temperature of -2°C.

If the beer coils are submerged in such a low temperature, the beer will frost in the bin after a standstill. We encountered these at least 10 to 15 times over the years.

The very old systems (I even know such a systems today) where for cooling the bottles in it, but the floor of that counter was a water sealed bin (zinc)
The injected ***** (TEV) went first in the static evaporator to cool the bottles and went then further in the bin via bended copper tubes. In that lower bin where also the tubes for the beercooling tap.

Don't forget, Belgium is thé Beerland: 450 different sorts of beer and only 10,5 million citizens.

[chemi-cool]

hi mark

propylen glycol is anty freeze used in anycolling relating to food.
ethylen glycol is used for other things like auto radiators.

the freezing point depends on the percentage of the glycol in the water.
there is a scecial instrument to see the glycol percentage and it looks and works lite the one you check the acid content in a car battery. all kinds of glycol are alcohol based.

chemi

[Peter_1]

When we make eutictical plates for trucks, we (let) make the plates in corrosion free steel of 1,5 mm. (inox we call it, english name...? ), thickness 4 cm and there we add only pure salt in it, just enough to achieve the desired eutectical point. (10 K difference of teh desired room or storage temperature), bended tube of 1/2,holded in the middle via a perforated wooden stud (meranti or oak), fixed together with inox screws.

Experimented with all kinds of glycol and commercial antifreeze with bad results. Salt was the best.

[Bones]

actually, i was refering to the system you sort of explained earlier, i thought it must have been different again to temprite or python system, since you didn't say. plus the only work i've done on a python so far was replace the pump lol.

I once saw in a schoolbook (never in real life) a beer cooler made as follow: a sort of very small well insulated pressure tank. In that tank a inox coil where-in the beer was flowing. Surrounding that coil and in the pressure tank was the liquid *****. On the outlet an EPR valve, inlet in the tank via a TEV. So they needed no water to cool the beer, the liquid ***** was the cooling medium. The only thing they did was maintaining a presetted low pressure at a corresponding temperature of +/- 0°C. As soon as there was (warmer) beer flowing, pressure rises and the compressor started to cool down the receiver. If I find the drawing, I will post it here.
It was a good invention because you can make it very small to fit underneath the counter.

A shematic would be great if you have one handy. If you cannot find one thats ok, i understand

[PAXFREON]

Check this out:
http://www.micro-matic.com/html/dist...actus_dis.html

[Peter_1]

Hi Marc,

I wish you all the luck for this Newyear and may we all learn sometimes from this very usefull forum.

I took this afternoon some pictures of the truck with the 3 SV's (thread I started with the SEV) coupled in star with the strange habits when shutting off.

I will reduce the picture size this evening and post them somewhere. Perhaps others never saw such an application (vending goods with a truck on markets)

Good luck and as we say in Belgium, earn a lot but work a litlle.


Peter.

[herefishy]

Hi pax. You can get Beer supplies from Fox Equipment Company. Their web is

www.foxxequipment.com

They are rather knowledgeable, in my experience, if you have any questions.

[herefishy]

originally posted by Peter_1
Are you sure you can add glycol? The purpose of our system is that we build up an icebank around the bin which act as a buffer (through is latent heat) in case of high load.

The straight water ice bank configuration is common in the post mix sugar-based carbonated beverage applications. The reason that you would not want to use glycol in this application, is that the carbonated water is also cooled, and allowing the bath to go below freezing is a bad idea.

In the case of beer however, the alchohol lowers the freeze point, and it is typical (in my experience) to employ a glycol solution for cooling the beer python circuit. Myself having installed remote beer systems with circulating chillers, have myself charged a beer chiller with a glycol solution.

Cheers

[Abe]

Nice to see u again Herefishy, where u been???
U must send me a PM with your number so I can call you and catch up on things

[Peter_1]

Posted some pictures of the van on http://users.skynet.be/sky71808/edelvis.htm

Is a large file +/- 1,7 MB.

Slaughtery of Bruges from last summer installed http://users.skynet.be/sky71808/BSL.htm[/

Some other pictures of the same slaughtery, first pictures are from the very old pump circulation system on ***** R401a (1960) with a charge of +/- 1.800 kg and further the ammonia installation from 1982.
Each year, we install racks on the different places and refurbish this factory a little bit at once.

http://users.skynet.be/sky71808/BSL2.htm

These are he best installations for learning your job. We had a new technician and I sended him without saying anything special to the pump circulation system. The only thing I said was that there was a little problem with oil in 'a compressor' He never had seen a pack, nor a circulating system.

I let him leave the workshop and after 10 minutes, I also leaved the shop without contacting him to join him and to explain everything.
You should have given money to see his face when he saw the compressor room at the firts sight. He almost ran away to his prior job and sat down with his mouth open.

Peter

[chemi-cool]

hi peter,

I've seen all the pictures and it brings me back to a question I wanted to ask you and my british friends.

I always see in your instalations of air conditioners and small refrigeration units that the insulation is left uncoverd or better unprotected.
for your information, the ozon in the air is taking it apart andthe proces is even faster on sunny days.

I always cover them witha special acrilic heavy paint that is used for sealing roofs and the insulation lasts forever.

why in most of europe its unprotected??

chemi

[Peter_1]

We never protect them inside the building, only when installed outside in the sun.
The pictures you saw where all of indoor installations.

And I think we don't see the sun that much like you do Chemi.

But it is very rare that we put suction lines outside.

It last not forever if you don't protect it, that have we seen already.

Strange now you mention it, I never saw one protected insulation inside.

But I agree 100 %, it is better.
Again, when making a price, it is now these times on the sharp of the edge and things you are not obligated to do, you don't do it.

These where the pictures he Chemi! The installation is older then I am. Especially the switch-cupboard (without drawings) gave me many gray hairs already.

[rbartlett]

yes chemi

it is recommended that all aramflex is painted -but only very few spec it..the old class 'o' grey did degrade very quickly but the newer black seems to last pretty well

however as peter said -our sun is much kinder than yours..

however i remember sitting in a hotel in cuba over looking the restaurant flat roof there was a big carrier split and both suction and liquid (approx 20 metres) were protected by a coat of green paint no insulation -just the paint!!



cheers

richard

[wesmax]

I see you are from USA are you a member of the Refrigeration Service Engineers Society, if so look in the service application manual section 40 it should help , also we have a local man who has invented a new system and I will have more foe you on monday.
wesmax