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  1. #1
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    HBP compressor used in LBP application



    Hello, just joined and hoping for some comments on my problems. There are 2 at the moment.

    First
    I want to use a Sanden SD5 compressor in a freezer system. The SD5 is normally a car aircon unit and so maybe a HBP unit and typically runs at a suction of 25 PSIG. My application is a freezer with a suction of 2 PSIG even going to minus 1 PSIG i.e. LBP. This is going to put the compression ratio way up and may overheat the unit? Does any one have experience of this type of usage and what the actual compression ratio is? I will only run it at 1800RPM so it's running at 1/3 of it's max RPM.

    Second
    The SD5 usually uses 5GS oil which is pretty thick and I want to use 3GS oil instead, I know the makers would frown on this but.....
    Having changed the duty to a freezer the oil will be subject to temperatures as low as -20C and so in a small trial I put some 3GS and 5GS in a small pot and stuck it in a freezer, the 3GS was still quite viscous but the 5GS was solid. So here the problem lays, if I use the 5GS it will freeze in the evaporator and starve the compressor but the 3GS will flow back to compressor but may be a little thin at operating temperatures expected.

    I obviously did not try a refrigerant/oil mixture in the freezer test but would have liked to - it would show how the mixture would react which is very realistic. Does any one know how the viscosity of the oil changes with refrigerant present. Will it work?

    Thanks - Betldrive



  2. #2
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    Its an open drive rig, just select a good motor and it should work, hell most fish boats here use auto compressors for the blast frezers at -40, no idea of their efficiency like that but seems to work.

  3. #3
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    maybe you can use a heating element for the oil cranckase ??

    just an idea

    Ice

  4. #4
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    IceCube, it's especially in the low temperature evaporator that it will stay as a viscous substance.
    I should go for the 3GS and it will not overheat if your SH stays low.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

  5. #5
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    yep, your right peter.
    but i wonder if the oil whit higher viscosity will sufficient lubricate the moving parts in the compressor ?? why else is the original oil thicker .

    just a thought

    Ice

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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    The effect of disolved gas in the oil must make a differance - but how much, what we need is a temp/miscibility graph and a temp/viscosity graph for a saturated oil? Doubt it exists.

    I wonder if some oil and gas in liquid line sight glass, an end cap at one end and a schrader valve at the other, a freezer and a temp gauge ..... must whiz - fun time.

  7. #7
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    A copy and pastry from another website

    Suniso 3GS
    Generally recommended for running-in new units and for all units of less than 1 tonne capacity irrespective of length of service. It is also used in all units operating below -40°C where heavier oils would cause oil return problems.

    Suniso 4GS
    Similar to Suniso 3GS except that it has a higher viscosity. Recommended for systems with capacities of 1 tonne and over which are fully run in, except where the system functions below -40°C.

    Suniso 5GS
    For use where higher viscosity oils are required such as certain air conditioning units and, particularly, in many automotive air conditioners using CFC R12 as refrigerant.

    Suniso 4SA
    A modified version of Suniso 4GS developed for ammonia refrigeration systems where temperatures and pressures are frequently higher.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

  8. #8
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    Hi Peter 1

    This is a good description of the oils and definitly shows that 5GS is for air con applications only as suspected but the 4GS looks like the oil I should use.
    Good down to -40C and thicker than 3GS.

    Good one and thanks for that.

    Beltdrive

  9. #9
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    Hi Beltdrive and welcome.

    Our friends who work fulltime on automobile a/c can kindly correct me here but my memory of the Sanden 5 series ( like 505 ,508, 510) were they were primarily intended for CFC 12 with mineral or alkylbenzene oils.

    With the intro of HFC 134a, Sanden migrated to the Sanden 7 series , like 7-09.

    In their day, the 508 and 510 were reasonably successful on transport refrigeration using r12 and r502.(using oil separators and liquid injection in every effort to prolong their chance of survival with generously sized condensers).
    For reasons I cannot recollect now, the 709 series never really took off with advent of HFC 134a or 404a for transp refrig applic.
    Instead most transp refrig manufacturers moved to TAMA products like TM 08, TM13, TM15, 16 or 21 (also known as Diesel Kiki or Zexel dependent on where they are marketed)

    These TAMA may use PAG oil in auto a/c or in transport refrig we use POE poly-ol-ester.
    Solest 120 (TM) a POE of CPI Industries has proven to be quite satisfactory for transport refrig.
    It's spec sheet says good for 134a a/c or chill but most of manufacturers also run it on 404a for deep frozen (attempting -29C box temp).

    You are right - most of the manufacturers of swashplate compressors - be it Denso, TAMA,Sanden or Unicla - will tell you the design and comfortable envelope of operation of these products is really in the air conditioning environment. ( NO surprise there!!!)
    Moderate speeds, good piping and oil return layout, suitable viscosity like the 12O Solest oil, and decent condenser size will all help if they are to be used in transport refrig.

    Alternative is the robust but pricey (factor of 3~4 x a swashplate) open drive 2 and 3 cylinder recips like DKP 12,19 or 210 ( 120 cc,190cc or 210 cc ) from DieselKiki -TAMA as example. MHI and Bock also make smaller open drive recips for transport application.

    Hope this helps and not too late for your review!
    regards
    T-P
    Remember what Augustus once said:
    "festina lente" - make haste, slowly!

  10. #10
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    Thanks for this thermo prince. Its never too late.

    It is the 508 that is the unit in question. It seems it has fallen from favour due to the 134a gases.

    The original unit was a Deisel Kiki and now it is a TAMA which seems to be working fine but sometimes getting hold of a unit is difficult and one must use what one has. A 508 in this case. The problem is whichever compressor one picks up it needs to have an oil change to fit the system.

    If the 508 is really as old as it seems maybe a second TAMA unit would be good as a spare. shame though as there are 2 off 508's in the box ready to go but if it seizes and causes debris in the system its a long haul to fix it.

    Not sure about the recips as they are pricey and difficult to source.

    Which is better PAG or POE and why?

    Beltdrive

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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    Hi again Beltdrive,

    I suggest you discard the old Sanden 508 <131cc/ per rev> and go for TM 13XD compressor type with POE oil and HFC.
    Dependent on your cargo or 'box temp' required, you could use HFC134a to -18C
    or
    HFC404a down to -29C


    For refrigeration use using swashplate & HFC the obvious and best choice would be an ester oil (POE).
    The PAG ( poly alkyl glycol) oils were developed by the Automobile industry for their lubrication properties at 'warmer' evaporating temperatures.
    (Check out MAC /IMACA sites for more)

    To my knowledge, PAG is not suitable for refrigeration application at all but we have found POE however to be satisfactory on dual purpose - i.e for minibus a/c application as well as truck refrigeration applications.

    Both POE and PAG are highly hygroscopic (absorb moisture rapidly from the air, in same way as brake fluid was notorious upon opening canister). PAG is the worse of the 2 however.

    At the risk of endorsing the Solest 120 too much, << I appear to have a Canadian private eye on my tail,scrutinizing everything I write so gotta be careful here >> I will only add that the company I work for, has had excellent results with 120 on swashplate TAMA series , but I cannot speak for Sanden Corp's recommendation or Unicla, Denso,MHI.

    Take a look here ....
    www.statoillubricants.com/.../sto00131.nsf/alldocs/FA4B316BA01734D5C12572BA002AF0D3/$FILE/CPI_Solest_120.pdf

    For what it's worth, we have also found that Solest 120 works a treat in that notorious old 'workhorse ' AC Delco / Harrisson A6 compressor on air con applications too.

    regards
    T-P
    Remember what Augustus once said:
    "festina lente" - make haste, slowly!

  12. #12
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    hi again Beltdrive, I wrote you a lengthy reply again but it seemed to vanish after I clicked "post reply " ... or I thought I clicked it

    Anyhow for brevity, I suggest you discard the old Sanden 508 (131cc/rev) stock and use a TM13XD with Solest 120 and a HFC refrigerant like 134a ( to -18C box temp) or 404a ( good down to -29C space or box temp . (also called R.A temp).
    The TM 13 is also ~130cc displ.


    POE ester is intended for low temp refrigeration : PAG (poly alkyl glycol) is not ! - primarily intended for automobile a/c' s warmer evaporating temps.
    <Check MAC /IMACA sites for more info on PAG)

    take a look at Solest120 here

    www.statoillubricants.com/.../sto00131.nsf/alldocs/FA4B316BA01734D5C12572BA002AF0D3/$FILE/CPI_Solest_120.pdf

    Solest 120 is the one I recommend for the Tama swashplates on refrigeration duty. We have had good success with it as a low temp lubricant since early millenium intro.

    Both POE and PAG are highly hygroscopic ( absorb moisture from the air rapidly) but PAG is the greater offender once can is opened. << remember how brake fluid for your car had same drawback?? >>

    Solest120 also work well on minibus a/c systems using TAMA. For what its worth, it also works a treat on that old workhorse Delco/Harrison A6.

    hope this helps,
    regards
    T-P
    Remember what Augustus once said:
    "festina lente" - make haste, slowly!

  13. #13
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    Re: HBP compressor used in LBP application

    Thermo Prince - this is a history lesson on compressors and trends. Really useful.

    The unit in current service is a TM 13 and it is fine but one day it will probably fail and so one must replace it. The problem is there are new 508 units in a box as spare but these cannot be sold or swapped any more for a TM13, even if one could find it. Thats why I am trying to see if it will work and for how long?. My suspicisions are it may not be the best choice hence the query about the oil and temp range. From what your experiences show it is a bit old hat now and so a TM13 would be better.
    The TM13 seemed to be an unknown manufacturer and not as well known as D Kiki but from what you say it is the new version of it. I will have to try and swap it with someone.

    Merci

    Beltdrive

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