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    Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator



    Hello,


    I write to ask for help and share information.

    I do so after completing a working model that is innovative in turbine power generation.

    DaS (Dad and Sons) technology converts a gas bar pressure into water pressure of same value feeding directly into a Francis hydro turbine.

    For each one litre of water flow per second at nine bar pressure it produces 720 watts, this doubles at doubling of either gas bar pressure or litres flow per second.

    Water/gas at a temperature of 550c has 175 bar pressure, where as Co2 at 70c has 10,000 bar pressure.

    Co2 at temperature of 31c has less than 100 bar pressure, and Co2 at temperature of 70c has 10,000 bar pressure.

    Thus a working bar gas pressure of 9,900 exists between 31c and 70c.

    Thus for each 1 degree Celsius increase above 31c provides 253.8461 bar pressure.

    253.8461 gas bar pressure at 1 litre per second generates 20.307 Kilowatts.

    By-product of water movement within the DaS Generator is a compressor.

    What I dont know is size of the orifice Co2 gas at 1 one litre per second must be compressed through into the condensor to lower its temperature by 1 degree Celsius.

    It would be great to know of such, and even more so if a qualified Refridgeration Engineer could assist in return for as agreed.

    Thank you for reading my request.

    Peter



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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by DaS Energy View Post
    Co2 at temperature of 31c has less than 100 bar pressure, and Co2 at temperature of 70c has 10,000 bar pressure.

    Thus a working bar gas pressure of 9,900 exists between 31c and 70c.
    Really? Where did you get your PhD? At the pub?

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Hello No Nickname.

    Didn't know Wikipedia posted it Web page Co2 Pressure Temperature tables whilst getiing drunk at a pub.

    Cheers
    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Didn't know that co2 heat pump producers had to design their units to withstand a pressure of 10.000 bar. I wonder what the pipes shall look like.

    And since co2 is in air, what is the partial vapour pressure over the sahara desert? 2000 bar?

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...se_diagram.svg

    I think you misinterpreted the above graphic.
    Last edited by NoNickName; 26-07-2008 at 01:12 PM.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Hello NoNickName,

    Only by being challenged do we learn.

    Checked out other Web Sites Co2 Critical and SuperCritical.

    Critical Co2 304K=31.1c
    Supercritical 400K=126.85c

    126.85c - 31.1c=95.75c

    9927 bar divided 95.75=103,6726+ bar 1c above 31.1c

    Corrected figures DaS Turbine generator 1c above 31.1c produces 8.294 Kilowatts.

    97.5c above 31.1c produces 794.16 Kilowatts at 1 litre per second gas flow.

    Dont know of any existing heat pumps of 10,000 bar pressure.

    But innovation is the name of the game. Boeing Airbus wouldn't exist unless a bicycle builder was in the innovation game.

    Sorry dont know partial vapour pressure over Sahara Desert, Web search might locate.

    Cheers
    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Hello No NickName,

    Found Pipe ,Valve and Fittings 10,000 bar. Autoclave Engineers Erie PA US.

    Dont need that pressure though, only have to double litres per second water turbine flow, to double generator output. EG. 16.588 Kw two litre flow 103.6726 bar pressure. Which means cooling 1c two litres Co2 per second.

    Can you help out with orifice size, and condensor size to acheive cooling.

    Thanks
    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Ok, let's put it this way. How do you manage to store 1 l/s of liquid co2 to be warmed up to supercritical status?

    For just one hour of operation you shall store 8700 liters (almost 9 m3) of liquid co2 to be warmed from subcritical to supercritical.

    Where are you supposed to find such a source of liquid and pure co2?

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Hello NoNickName,

    Thanks for your continued interest it is appreciated, however it is one o'clock am over here so I need some shut eye. But before I sign off for tonight.

    No liquid Co2 is stored only Co2 vapour as its above its critical temperature.

    The system is a sealed loop.

    The hot Co2 at the top of the loop is cooled and falls to the bottom of the loop where it is heated and rises again.

    The unque process by which this is done is the DaS Generator.

    Can post the schematics, if it can be done here, but need be walked through that, as I am an oldie not up to speed on computers yet.

    Thanks again,
    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Vapours follow the gas law pv=nRT, and in no case for whatever vapour an increase of 70K increase the pressure by 9900 bar.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Hello NoNickName

    Yes, its 9927 bar for a temperature increase of 96K. As corrected in earlier post.

    Might be too much of an ask to reduce 1 litre per second Co2 vapour by 96K.

    A Refridgeration Engineer may supply how to reduce the temperature by a lower figure, if 96K is not possible.

    Cheers
    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by DaS Energy View Post
    A Refridgeration Engineer may ...
    Choose to doubt anything written by someone who cannot spell REFRIGERATION.

    Look up ^ its even in the forum name
    Last edited by Plank!; 28-07-2008 at 08:07 PM. Reason: i can't spell

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Thanks Plank,
    Never too old to learn. Got wrong spelling all the way through Forum. Glad I'm not sitting a spelling test.

    Cheers

    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Thanks Tank

    I am but an uneducated oldie, who does things by make and see.

    Glad I'm not in a spelling test.

    Cheers

    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Thanks People,
    Sort refrigeration schematics have been supplied other source.

    Cheers

    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by DaS Energy View Post
    Thanks People,
    Sort refrigeration schematics have been supplied other source.

    Cheers

    Peter

    Peter I have been watching this thread with intrest.
    You have not got the answers you wanted from her (I fear you have not been taken serious).

    If I may add my view.

    You are planning to use c02 in a steam turbine type system to generate electricity?

    You callculate that there is more energy stored in the c02 than there is in water?

    You needed charts to work out flow rates and such?

    I do not know if what you propose is viable or not but regardless of the medium you will have to put energy into the system before you get the energy out. You state that there is more energy in c02 than there is in water but you will have to supply that energy, it will not be free.
    You have to take into consideration how you plan to cool the c02 down after it has passed through the turbine.
    Also I don't think your pressures are right regarding c02 your figures at 30deg C are not far off but you need to look at the pressures of 10000 bar for the high end pressure.

    Not much help to you I'm sure just my thoughts.

    Keep posting updates about your progress because I for one found your post intresting..

    All the best taz.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNickName View Post
    Really? Where did you get your PhD? At the pub?
    Did he said he had a PhD? IS this the welcome for a new member?
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    ...regardless of the medium you will have to put energy into the system before you get the energy out. You state that there is more energy in c02 than there is in water but you will have to supply that energy, it will not be free.
    Taz, the CO2 is under a serious pressure; they stored a lot of energy in it to liquefy it, so there's a lot of energy stored in it.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by Plank! View Post
    Choose to doubt anything written by someone who cannot spell REFRIGERATION.

    Look up ^ its even in the forum name
    Can you spell hottentottententententoonstelling?
    It's an existing word in Dutch but not that easy for you, isn't it?

    Some speak better English than you speak Chinese.

    Just wanted to say: never judge someone on his writing skills or his typing skills. A good tech has not to be a good writer.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_1 View Post
    Did he said he had a PhD? IS this the welcome for a new member?
    He didn't, actually. Sorry to being rude, although what I tried to pass on is that no matter what you do with co2, nothing is created and nothing is destroyed. And in no way 70K dt corresponds to 10000bar dp for co2.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNickName View Post
    He didn't, actually. Sorry to being rude, although what I tried to pass on is that no matter what you do with co2, nothing is created and nothing is destroyed. And in no way 70K dt corresponds to 10000bar dp for co2.

    The only way i see it hitting those pressures is when its trapped between two valves.
    Otherwise all those matt black CO2 cylinders stored outside in the sun would be going off like fire crackers everytime the sun hit them.

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    Smile Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    Peter I have been watching this thread with intrest.
    You have not got the answers you wanted from her (I fear you have not been taken serious).

    If I may add my view.

    You are planning to use c02 in a steam turbine type system to generate electricity?

    You callculate that there is more energy stored in the c02 than there is in water?

    You needed charts to work out flow rates and such?

    I do not know if what you propose is viable or not but regardless of the medium you will have to put energy into the system before you get the energy out. You state that there is more energy in c02 than there is in water but you will have to supply that energy, it will not be free.
    You have to take into consideration how you plan to cool the c02 down after it has passed through the turbine.
    Also I don't think your pressures are right regarding c02 your figures at 30deg C are not far off but you need to look at the pressures of 10000 bar for the high end pressure.

    Not much help to you I'm sure just my thoughts.

    Keep posting updates about your progress because I for one found your post intresting..

    All the best taz.

    Hello Taz,
    Sorry for so long'
    So many figures
    Relying on ruler and Wikipedia phase diagram Co2.

    Co2 pressure increases with temperature rise.

    Co2 is Refrigerant R-744.

    Absorption fridge uses a boiler in place of a compressor.

    Co2 is contained in a turbine, this replacing the absorption fridge boiler.

    As liquid Co2 receives heat pressure is developed and the liquid turns to vapour.

    Absorption fridge returns vapour to liquid by use of a pressure restrictor at choke point.

    A turbine acheives the same purpose by asorbing the pressure enrgy. (as done in Helium cooling)

    Cool Co2 under pressure is liquid, this ocurring second third of rotation.

    At third stage ifs rotation brings dramatic degrees in pressure creating dry ice of remaing Co2 liquid, having less than 5 bar pressure.

    Web search> Co2 is liquid at 73 bar and 31.2 degrees Celsisus, Co2 liuid forms dry ice -93 degrees Celsius at 3 bar pressure.

    University of America> 80% efficient hydro turbine 9 bar pressure 1 litre per second 720 watts doubling with flow.

    Air temperature of above 5 degrees Celsisus obtains sufficent bar pressure for operation.

    The turbine footrint is calculated on wattage or megawattage output.

    A 1 litre turbine rotating sixty times per minute, 9 bar pressure is 720 watts, 1000 RPM 720 Kw.

    Spent six years making working models, but have to rely upon the Web to explain why it works, rather than just saying stick a turbine in a gas fridge.

    Can post schematics etc, if walked through it.

    Cheers

    Peter

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Quote Originally Posted by DaS Energy View Post
    Web search> Co2 is liquid at 73 bar and 31.2 degrees Celsisus, Co2 liuid forms dry ice -93 degrees Celsius at 3 bar pressure.

    These figures are still VERY wrong.
    CO2 has a triple point a fair bit higher than that.

    Regards
    Plank!

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    CO2 critical point 31.1c @ 73.6barA
    Triple point -56.6c @ 5.18barA

    DaS you really need to verify your figures before you hurt yourself.

  24. #24
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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Well Peter

    You are on right Path. I am proud you came with a Brilliant Idea.

    One simple Question?. Where do we get Turbines what works on CO2 at such a high pressure?.


    SIRCORP

  25. #25
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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Well NoNickname

    Problem is I have never heard a Ph.D. Billionaire. They all ends in a corner of the University.

    Most people who are Billionaire are University Drop Outs.

    I see no problem with Peters Idea for a pressure of 50 MPa (500 Bar)> However Pressure drop across the system at this pressure and flow will not allow pressure to go too far.

    So 10,000 Bar is out of Question but PETER IDEA WILL STILL WORK.

    sircorp@hotmail.com

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Threads older than 6 months shall be purged, in my view... this was 2 years old and I couldn't even remember what we were talking about.

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    Hello Taz,

    Sorry about so long in reply old computer went fuzzz. Still discover who I wrote to.

    Learnt how to image now hope the diagram is of help.

    Construction material is Line pipe and rubber ball. 10,000 bar pipe welding is childs play to Oil Rig welders.

    Cut and weld of pipe makes a hydro Mitchell turbine.

    Liquid Co2 flashes off gas in top of the DaS Valve.

    This provides a downward force upon the liquid Co2 also in the DaS Valve.

    The force of the gas forces the liquid propelling the turbine.

    When the gas release opens in the DaS Valve the gas Co2 travels immeadiatly to the top of the holding tank above the turbine.

    This forces the liquid Co2 back through the turbine in equal opposite force.

    The liquid co2 coming back into the top of the DaS Valve boils off again.

    Liquid movement of 1 litre per second at 9 bar pressure provides 720 watts. This increasing by flow rate or pressure.

    Note that liquid coming off the turbine goes through spray nozels to bring the co2 gas back to liquid.


    Co2 CHART.jpg
    untitled.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    The Answer
    http://dasturbine.com

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    Re: Co2 vs Steam turbine power generator

    .Co2 CHART.jpgDont know what happened last but heres another gountitled.jpg
    The Answer
    http://dasturbine.com

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    Alternate use R744 and other gasses.

    Hello again Refrigeration Engineers. First my thanks to all including moderator.

    You people may a an interest in a simplified turbine that uses any gas for drive by expansion.

    The system works by cool gas entry into the turbine vane which travells to hot spot where gas expansion is created by heat and then that force is carried down to the botom of the turbine where fluid cooling is conected. Gas being gas and liquid being liquid an interchange takes place with liquid replacing the gas in the vane and the gas travelling upward through the cooling liquid. Then when the vane returns back to start possition the cooling liquid is flung off back into the cooling tank and cool gas again fills the turbine vane.

    ROTARY DAS.JPG

    Other to that is a piston heat engine again using refriderant or any other gas which may be compressed into a liquid. The system works with injected engines. One cylinder continues in normal combustion practice the others however rely upon the heat waste of such combustion. The extra cylinders are heated by the water jacket already in place combustion engines. In place of fuel being injected liquified gas is pumped in using the injector pump. Heat expansion of the gas inside the cylinder replicates the forces of combustion so a need exists for right heat input against cooling or dramatic and unpleasant things happens if heat too high. A piston engine contains an exhaust and a compression stroke. Its that compression stroke which acts like a fridge compressor, though unlike a fridge the hot gas is compressed into a cooling chamber that feeds to the injector pump. Best efficiency occurs with valve camshaft alteration so the exhaust valve remains open during the exhaust and compression stroke and only closes for the power stroke. However a bottle of Co2 addaed without engine adaption gives less power output and does not recycle the gas, But provides in excess of double the travel after the fuel is turned off to all cylinders and all cylinders act as heat engine, till heating needs require further combustion. Good luck to you all Peter
    DaS Heat Engine.JPG
    The Answer
    http://dasturbine.com

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