Vaillant Air Conditioning

[nevgee]

Air to water heat pumps are available from Calorex Heat pumps in Maldon Essex (do a net search and it will find)...Their units I believe are the only ones so far to produce LPHW to 65C. They also do ground source heat pumps along with other forms of heta recovery /dehumidifiers for swim pool applications etc.
Daikin and Mitsubishi also do Air to water heat pumps.

As for the trade divide, more and more are we all being subjected to systems where differing trades are encroaching one another. We work a lot with heatpumps with LPHW services and water systems attached, along with the inevitable electrics.

I believe any self respecting Refrig /air con engineer would be able to handle electrics in any case as a means to fault finding.

The Calorex air/water heat pumps I have worked on have usually been installed by plumbing/ building companies but when it comes to resolving problems with them we get called out. Usually the problems have been external faults with the LPHW or system or wiring and not with the heat pump unit.

I think we're heading into an industry of trades without frontiers.

Time to start adapting.

[nevgee]

http://www.calorex.com/Product_range...ctionASHP2.htm

[Brian_UK]

I work for Ryan Air Conditioning Spares and therefore as a supplier/wholesaler would say i am qualified to help with questions?

Thanks Prince, situation clarified and understood.

[nevgee]

Taz,

... The problem is, aircon/ refrigeration guys don't really want to mess about in Mrs Jonses airing cupboard and to most plumbers/heating guys, this is black magic to be avoided at all costs... If a plumber fits this kit, he won't be able to repair it an if there is a leak in the water system, then an aircon man won't want to bother himself with a leaky water pipe/ cylinder..

Eventually, I see there being a tradesman who works on this kind of stuff who is a little bit plumber, a little bit aircon/ ref man and a little bit sparks to deal with the range of new domestic heating systems, be they air to air, air to water, solar and / or PV....

.....so who do you call when it goes wrong? a gas man or a sparky?

.. I am not in favour of untrained plumbers fitting heat pumps...

...... We cannot escape the fact that refrigerants will be used more and more in domestic heating and so should accept that perhaps there should be guys who have the training to work on this kind of equipment who are not air conditioning engineers..

I have been to 18 air to water domestic heat pumps this year and all of the problems with exception to one noisy compressor were either electrical or LPHW system faults.

What I find very hard to understand is why anyone would look upon an AW heat pump as "black art" and mysterious. If the instructions are followed correctly these units are easier to instal than any gas boiler. They require an electric mains supply, some interconnection wiring to the CH/HW programmer and that should be it. Some require slight variations depending whether the control system is "S" or "Y" plan etc. or have booster tanks.

The pipework is so simple one flow one return connection. These units are really so simple they could be destined for the diy market.

However, as we all know the interior workings of AW heat pumps are simply a fridge in reverse as all of you guys will know. As most of you also know it can be difficult explaining in layman terms just how an air con manages to produce cold air ..."it's just like your fridge luv but with a fan" So how do you explain to the client how a fridge in reverse produces hot water from cool outdoor air?

If electricians and plumbers have difficulty in understanding the laws of thermodynamics as well then surely the only people reasonably positioned to do the repairs must be refrig and air con engineers?

As for system leaks and electrical problems outwith the AW unit then it shouldn't be too difficult for the Ref / AC engineer to identify the problem and depending on his expertise he could do the repair to the leak or replace the thermost or advise the client he needs to get the respective tradesperson in to do the work.


Many a time I get called out to AHU's and systems with LPHW fed from a boiler. If the fault lays there I would tell the client to get a plumber / corgi guy in.

One thing a Ref / AC man can do is be a little bit electrician and a little bit Plumber I doubt the other trades being able to do the same likewise.

The principles of refrigeration are universal, so what goes on inside a split air con system is no different to that inside a heat pump ...so it should be easy for an air con engineer.

The cost of energy is rising and this technology will be the future. I somehow can't see any government in the UK supporting a domestic air con market that will draw unecessary energy from the grid during summer months, as cooling isn't really needed in our climate. But heating is a necessity in winter and heat pumps are a good way forward with COP's typically 3:1 the authorities are already encouraging the use of heatpumps air and ground source ...it is the way forward.

[taz24]

Hi Taz,
Our Ducted units will be released in April we do however do duted units on our VRF and Multi Range.Regards Jay.

Cheers Jay.

Taz,


I We cannot escape the fact that refrigerants will be used more and more in domestic heating and so should accept that perhaps there should be guys who have the training to work on this kind of equipment who are not air conditioning engineers..

Cheers Karl

Cheers Nevgee

taz

[Karl Hofmann]

Many a time I get called out to AHU's and systems with LPHW fed from a boiler. If the fault lays there I would tell the client to get a plumber / corgi guy in.

And there lies the problem..... The customer has waited in, possibly taken a day off work to wait for you. You are there for fifteen minutes or so, and tell her... You need a plumber love... Here is my bill for the call out...

She called YOU to fix her heating/ hot water, not to be told that she needs a different guy... She has no hot water, there is no hot water to bath the kids when they are home from school, it is Winter, she has taken a day off work and waited for some ****y **** to say "Get someone else, this aint my department" and give her a bill for that gem of advise...
Talk about "Rip off Britain"

The Customer expects you to come out, fix the problem and bill her for a repair.. Parts must be widely available, off the shelf or at worst next day... All kudos to Calorex, but they are not exactly big players with an easy supply of parts, not in the same way as they are available for Baxis, Worcesters or Vaillants.

With regard to the "Black Magic" comment, you should find that the domestic heating profession is a very conservative bunch.. Many of the older guys refuse to fit Combis because they still see them as unreliable and difficult to repair. The installer is nearly always the first person that the customer will contact in the event of a problem and If they know that they cannot repair the equipment that they install, then the customer is let down, the otherwise excellent equipment gets a bad reputation and the customer is well and truly cheesed off. Some heating guys will relish the challenge of learning new stuff, others like to stick with what they know.

If the engineer that the customer calls out cannot offer the full "One stop" repair and service package, then he may be the most fantastic air conditioning engineer in the world.. But he is still a worthless fool to the customer

If a heat pump returns 3Kw for every 1 consumed, then this is more expensive than heating with Natural gas, and hence of no value to the customer

[nevgee]

And there lies the problem..... The customer has waited in, possibly taken a day off work to wait for you. You are there for fifteen minutes or so, and tell her... You need a plumber love... Here is my bill for the call out...

We wouldn't have charged her at all, no work no pay ....

She called YOU to fix her heating/ hot water, not to be told that she needs a different guy... She has no hot water, there is no hot water to bath the kids when they are home from school, it is Winter, she has taken a day off work and waited for some ****y **** ? to say "Get someone else, this aint my department" and give her a bill for that gem of advise... Taking this attitude would creat a very poor customer relation, and should not to be condoned, we work with an aim to provide a service not a dis service.

Talk about "Rip off Britain"
Smile it might get better

The Customer expects you to come out, fix the problem and bill her for a repair.. Parts must be widely available, off the shelf or at worst next day... All kudos to Calorex, but they are not exactly big players with an easy supply of parts, not in the same way as they are available for Baxis, Worcesters or Vaillants.

Calorex parts are very easy to obtain in fact a large proportion of them are available at most reputable plumbers merchants, electrical wholesalers and certainly nextday from the factory. ...quite obviously you're not familliar with the Calorex equipment.

With regard to the "Black Magic" comment, you should find that the domestic heating profession is a very conservative bunch.. Time for them to change then ! Many of the older guys refuse to fit Combis because they still see them as unreliable and difficult to repair. The installer is nearly always the first person that the customer will contact in the event of a problem and If they know that they cannot repair the equipment that they install, then the customer is let down, the otherwise excellent equipment gets a bad reputation and the customer is well and truly cheesed off. I can agree with you here.

....Some heating guys will relish the challenge of learning new stuff...

That being so, then so they should.
I know a couple of combi service guys who do nothing but combi repair work and they tell me the average plumber is willing to fit but not willing to repair, fortunatey for my two mates it brings them ample work.

If the engineer that the customer calls out cannot offer the full "One stop" repair and service package, then he may be the most fantastic air conditioning engineer in the world.. But he is still a worthless fool to the customer

I don't think you are right with this comment and don't think there is anyone who would hold such a poor view ...strange world you must live in.

If a heat pump returns 3Kw for every 1 consumed, then this is more expensive than heating with Natural gas, and hence of no value to the customer

Ok so I did mention in an earlier post about people needing to understand the principles of themodynamics .... and so we have found someone ..... Is there any point in going any further

kiloWatt should be writen kW not Kw

Ok so, I think I understand most of what you're saying but how can you expect a one stop callout to be practical. The service guy will have to have Corgi and all of the respective modules and add ons that go with it; then part "p" electrical compliance along with "F" gas compliance It just would not be practical for one guy to hold all of these qualifications never mind the cost of getting them and then maintaining them. His charge out rate would be high to compensate.
An employer wouldn't want all that training locked up in one guy, he couldn't afford to have all his guys trained to such a level, so now where do we go with it?

The customer wants to phone one person and get a result ..

If you were to take your car to the dealer ...they don't have mechanics that do all the tasks involved. Repairs to the car are split up into various speciality trades, electrics, AC, body, etc. It is a pity Mrs Jones can't take her house down to the domestic services dealership where she could get her one stop repairs.

Likewise if you have a fault with your tv or cable / broadband ...who do you call .... Ghost Busters?

My underlying point in all of this was to say that an experienced refrig /ac engineer is most likely able to turn his hand to other trades and in most cases would more than likely be able to resolve the problem.... not the other way around.

Gripe all you want but it will not change things

Who're ya gonna call ...?l

[Karl Hofmann]

I think that someone is being just a little silly here, and it ain't me...

I'm not sure that I understand just why a one stop service on this equipment is not feasible.. There are guys out there who already have most of the required qualifications and certificates in place.. I am Corgi registered for domestic boilers, NG and LPG, am certified to work on pressurised, unvented systems, have my 17th edition, Level 3 cert in inspection and testing, registered for part P, certified for part L, my refrigerant handling cert is still valid, I have all the required equipment, calibrated where required, valid insurance, reasonable experience (There is always someone who has more experience and ability, though I fear not Mr Nevgee ), Plenty of ability and a "Can do" attitude that seems to work well. So I think that it would be fair to say that with a little extra effort it would be a pretty small step for a guy like me... and there are plenty of guys like me out in the real world who could easily cope with installing, servicing and repairing virtually ANY type of domestic heating system given a reliable source of parts.. And if you really think that the customer who calls you to say that her heating or hot water isn't working will tolerate being told that you can only do various bits... After you arrive, then I would ask you what colour is the sky on your planet... Because the customer doesn't care, all they care about is getting it fixed as quickly and as cost effectively as possible.
I'm not sure about yours, but my van runs on diesel, I would say that you have too much money to be able to turn up at a customers home and shrug your shoulders, saying "Cant do that bit" and then drive home again.

I too love repairing combis and would much rather repair a boiler than replace it. If I do need to replace it I always offer the customer a range of options for long term savings and reliability at a reasonable price.. For the life of me I cant see how a heat pump with a 3 Kilowatt output for a 1 Kilowatt input can compare to Natural gas central heating... It is not a case of thermodynamics (You do love that word, is it one that you have recently learned) It is a case of simple economics... It is cheaper to heat by Natural gas, check your bills, and have a look at how much your gas costs and then how much electricity costs .... Who ya gonna call?.. NOT Nevgee!!

I'm also curious just why you think that an aircon man is capable of doing gas, plumbing and elecrics, yet a sparky can't do these things or a plumber cant do all of these things... Surly it is down to the ability of the person involved, not what he does... Are you sure that you are not being a little elitist?... Not even a little???

Ok I'm now sure that we are both boring everyone else with this silliness and I'm sure that you will demand that you have the last word, so I shall look forward to your flogging a dead horse, feel free to huff and puff, the rest of us can go and do some real work...

Hugs and kisses...

[nevgee]

Efficiency is output/input x 100

With heat pump ; 1 kW input gives 3 kW output
so, 3/1 x 100 = 300% efficient.

Where as a boiler at best ..80%? unless it's a condensing boiler

1kW (Natural Gas) into boiler x efficiency say 80% (perhaps) = 0.8 kW output which means you're throwing 0.2 kW up the flue and using only 80% of the energy input.

With a heat pump you use 1 kW of energy into the unit and get 3 kW possibly 4 kW out.

To raise the temperature of a fixed volume of water. For example 150 litre cylinder need about 188 kW of energy to raise the temperature from 10 deg C (tap water) to 55 deg C .
With electricity at 10p per kWhr then it will cost £15.00. Simple. If gas was say 5p /kWhr
then the cost would be £7.50

With the heat pump you would only use (188/300)10 = £6.27

Is there a boiler that can be 100% efficient? certainly not 300%

I'm not trying to out do anyone here. can't see why a reasoned arguement should raise your heckles ....

Karl, say as you like we aren't going to agree so lets just agree to disagree....

[Karl Hofmann]

Efficiency is output/input x 100

With heat pump ; 1 kW input gives 3 kW output
so, 3/1 x 100 = 300% efficient.

Where as a boiler at best ..80%? unless it's a condensing boiler

1kW (Natural Gas) into boiler x efficiency say 80% (perhaps) = 0.8 kW output which means you're throwing 0.2 kW up the flue and using only 80% of the energy input.

With a heat pump you use 1 kW of energy into the unit and get 3 kW possibly 4 kW out.

To raise the temperature of a fixed volume of water. For example 150 litre cylinder need about 188 kW of energy to raise the temperature from 10 deg C (tap water) to 55 deg C .
With electricity at 10p per kWhr then it will cost £15.00. Simple. If gas was say 5p /kWhr
then the cost would be £7.50

With the heat pump you would only use (188/300)10 = £6.27

Is there a boiler that can be 100% efficient? certainly not 300%

I'm not trying to out do anyone here. can't see why a reasoned arguement should raise your heckles ....

Karl, say as you like we aren't going to agree so lets just agree to disagree....

Nevgee,

I agree with your basic idea though I'm not at all sure about the 188kw of energy to raise the 150 litres through 45C, I'm sure it is closer to 7.85Kw but the data is flawed, My electricity is 10.4pence per kwh and gas is 2.58 per kwh based on a bill from a few months ago... Yes I know that I'm paying too much!!

Given that all boilers installed now (With very few exceptions) must be band A or B, which means that they will be condensers, the efficiency of the gas increases (provided that the heating is designed properly) a few pecentage points and the gas is now shown to be considerably cheaper.. There are those who may argue that gas prices are increasing, but this will also reflect in the price of electricity as many generation plants are gas powered. So I will always tell my customers using Natural gas to stick with gas until such a time comes where heat pumps become efficient enough to offset the difference in price, bearing in mind that Tosh were making utterances of a 5 to 1 COP isn't too far off... (Allowing for marketing BS).. When faced with Oil and LPG the heatpump is already neck and neck, if not slightly ahead and against electric only heating, a heat pump is a no brainer

If I remember correctly I wasn't the one who was all upset at Vaillant selling to " Plumbers"

[nevgee]

Sorry my math is a load of b*ll*ocks

I messed up.

Should have been Q = m x dt x h (kJ/s)

I had the wife pestering me to go shopping

[nevgee]

Another valid point as you make about gas prices ... The wife must be making a mint from me, I need to check those gas bills more often.

Of course I see point about the gas cost. the air source heat pumps I have dealt with are in areas where gas is not an option only electric or oil and as you state In those cases they would prove a better option.

150 l x 4.1868 x 45 /3600 = 7.85 kW

Cheers