Need some advice in conservatory air con-heating

[deanH]

Hi there,stumbled across these forums whilst trying to find out some genuine info on which system i should get for my "about to built" conservatory,and am hoping you guys can help me out.

I want something that will both heat and cool the conservatory,i have looked wide and far on the internet,and so far i have just confused myself.

I gather there are 2 types of system i need to look at:-

1)the thru wall system with no pipes etc
2)the split system

The thru wall seem to be a lot more expensive,and i guess thats because they are d.i.y?

My conny internally is 5.2mtrs long by 2.6 mtrs wide and is north facing,and will have 2 solid brick walls to work from.

For the thru wall systems Initially i looked at the Prem-i-air SW 3.2kw 11000btu (£580),but i am unsure this would be powerful enough?

I then looked at the pmw-18 prem-i-air 5.3 kw 18000btu (£499)

But then i started to have doubts whether or not these would be too noisy?,its a room i intend on using quite often to watch tv etc.

I then started to do my own head in by looking at the split systems,which i gather are quieter?,and seem to be a lot cheaper to buy,although i know i need to have it installed professionally.

The problem i have deciding is,if i went for the thru wall prem sw,would it be too noisy?,and would it cope with the demands of pulling the heat down,and also keeping it warm in the winter?

For the split systems,i havent looked at many to be honest,only the VS 3.6KW 12000btu (seen this for £229),and these appear to be spec'd as being much quieter.


So what do you guys think?
what is the best option?
bearing in mind the following factors

noise levels, this is quite important,dont want to hear it rattling away whilst watching tv

effiency

Heating/cooling capacity

Maintenance levels

Installation costs

Regards
dean

[Peter_1]

If comfort (noise, no cold drafts, low energy consumption, you mentioned all this..) is important for you - and it was, don't doubt, go for a split and especially for the more well known brands like Daikin, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Fujitsu...
Mitsubishi has splits which can run while you sleep.

I think a 2.5 kW unit is more then enough for you and choose a heatpump.

[deanH]

thats for the reply peter
and particular model you can recommend?
i.e a link to a unit you may have in mind
kind regards

[deanH]

and sorry,i for got to mention,i suppose price wise,just for the split system,i am guessing the install will be about £100 -150 (i know someone who might fit it for me),so i dont want to spend anymore than £300-400 tops
dont know if i will get a quality unit for that?

[Peter_1]

You should count on 1500 Euros and I should choose a Mitsubsihi wall inverter unit. Very quite and reliable units.

You will find cheaper Chinese brands but what if something fails?

Price depends on the difficulty of the job and what you eventually can do yourself or helping while installing.

Shining is also not that bad and not so expensive.Warranty can be a problem.

[Gapraja]

Hi Dean,
With the escalating energy costs my advise would be to opt for an inverter unit. Your initial outlay would put you at the top end of your kit cost but will save you in the long run

[sinewave]

I'd wap one of these in meself!


£2K fitted depending on lectrix etc.

http://www.mitsubishi-aircon.co.uk/d....asp?id=119561

[deanH]

Hi guys,thanks for the replies so far

Someone has offered a "yama" split system to me,dont know what spec etc,but i cant find anything on the internet about them,which makes me think they are obselete
is this a stay clear situation?,or have i got the brand name wrong?

[Argus]

.


You've already mentioned a couple of brands that we haven't heard of. I think that Peter was trying to urge you to stay away from cheap imports that are basically dumped on this market at unrealistic prices.
He definitely knows what he's talking about.

The major brands are well established in terms of quality and spares. They may cost more, but you are paying for a better machine.
As with anything else, you get what you pay for and often buying cheap means buying twice.

But may I suggest that you go into this with your eyes open without being mesmerised by the cheapest price.

Whatever unit you go for, it will need an independent electrical supply. Don’t be tempted to run it from a 13 amp socket. The electrical supply installation will need to comply with the Building Regulations and you will need a certificate for it by a qualified person. That's the law in the UK right now.

The refrigerant installer must now be qualified. You can’t just do the pipe work yourself – you are risking a fixed penalty fine.

Alternatively you may fit a one-piece window rattler and put up with the draughts, noise and vibration.

I know what I’d do, but I don’t have a conservatory…….



.

[deanH]

Thanks for the advice argus,i thought as much when i heard the name yama that it was a steer clear job,was told, the guy is currently installing them in pubs and bars right now,and i suppose my unit would have been one of those,price as a favour was £500 fitted.
As with the electrics,that wont be an issue,as i am having all new consumer units,and have already been told by the sparky the air con,if using a split system,will need its own supply.

I will take peters adviceand get a branded name as suggested,I dont mind spending a little extra,i just need a few pointers in which model No' to go for.

thanks for all your replies so far,they have been very helpful in convincing me in what i need.

[deanH]

Is this system worth a look guys?
Mitsubishi model SRK40HG-S
seen it for £395 delivered

[frank]

I'll sell you one of these for £370 and install it for £??

Send me a PM or e-mail

The ones I have in stock are rated at 3.5kW

[deanH]

Hi frank
I looked at the link (thanks),but dont know exactly what i am looking at,as it had various pictures,and no complete systems to view if you know what i mean

I dont know how to send message via PM either buddy

[frank]

Click on the link and scroll down to the Summit wall mounted fan coil.

Full system, Heating and cooling, 3.5kW, inverter compressor, R410A refrigerant

What more can I say???

To send me a Pm you need 15 posts or more - sorry, I didn't look at your post total.

Click on my name and view my profile, then download my VB Card which contains my e-mail contact details.

[deanH]

Sorry frank
I cant find anywhere on your profile where i can download the VB card?

[R1976]

Hi

I'm local to you and can fit you a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system for £950 plus vat

[The General]

Hi Dean,

If the sun doesn't hit the roof of the conservatory then you will probably just get away with a 3.5kW unit. If the sun hits the roof at any time during the day I would strongly recommend you use a 4.5 or 5.0kW unit. Don't use a Chinese product and be careful of some Korean products as they can spend half there operating time in defrost during the heating cycle. An inverter unit is a must in a conservatory because of the rapid temperature swing. Also if you can afford it go for a low level unit and not a wall unit to avoid cold draughts. My recommendation is the Fujitsu AGYV or the Hitachi Summit RAF.

Regards

Gordon

[sinewave]

Hi

I'm local to you and can fit you a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system for £950 plus vat

We'll all be out of business at those prices!

[deanH]

Hi

I'm local to you and can fit you a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system for £950 plus vat

wow,there is no way i am paying that much for a aircon system,950+vat is best part of a £1000,having said that,i dont know how much a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system costs to be honest?if it was going to cost me that much for a half decent system,its something i would give a miss on.

maybe the idea in my mind of what these things cost to install is way off what installers are charging?
I estimate a full install would take no longer than a days work,as mine would be a pretty standard,easy install.
There is no complicated run of pipework fitment i can foresee,the separate power supply would already be in place,and i guess then its a case of install/test/commission?
Like i say,i dont know whats involved,but i'd have a good guess i cant be far off the mark.
Maybe i need to look at other options,as in my mind i was looking at paying £300-500 for a split system,and on top of that,had a guess a installment fees of around the £150-200 mark

You guys must be making some decent money

maybe i am in the wrong trade.

[frank]

£150 - £200 for a days work is way too low.

We as a Company currently charge out £320/day for an engineer, and this is due for a review, given the rising costs of transport.

To supply and install a small system we would not be charging less that £1500 - (as a business) - more if I could get it.

If someone was offering to supply and install a mitsi system for £950 I would recommend that you 'snap his hand off' (an English saying for those of you not resident in the UK)

I've just had a 'Microsoft' qualified engineer (what ever that means) in to sort out some software upgrades in the office - apparently (he told me) the going rate for this level of software engineer is £66/hour.

For what mess he has left, I think he is way under qualified and way toooooo expensive.

When you consider that we carry over £4000 worth of tools on the van and he turned up in his jeans, I think we charge a much more reasonable amount of money

Seems some people want to reward learning and experience with the least amount of hard cash.

Tell me again - why did I spend soooo many years training and learning????

Have a look here if you think this is expensive

[deanH]

Hmm
didnt think the costs were so much, surely frank that refrigration engineers working for a company dont earn that much money?,maybe if they are self employed i could believe it
But like you say frank,that price is as a business. where i work,we charge our printing presses at over £250 per hour,as all the overheads are taken into account
i was thinking more along the lines of someone doing a little moon lighting,

maybe i need to look at alternative methods,and look at the self install systems you can buy off the shelf,as i cant afford that sort of outlay

[stevo]

Hmm
didnt think the costs were so much, surely frank that refrigration engineers working for a company dont earn that much money?,maybe if they are self employed i could believe it
But like you say frank,that price is as a business. where i work,we charge our printing presses at over £250 per hour,as all the overheads are taken into account
i was thinking more along the lines of someone doing a little moon lighting,

maybe i need to look at alternative methods,and look at the self install systems you can buy off the shelf,as i cant afford that sort of outlay

You need to wake up ! you are asking to heat & cool a conservatory for under 1k !!.. why don't you DIY and see how easy it is ! If you want cheap you are heading for trouble ! seen it all before, & "WHEN" it all goes tits up, you will have to ask a properly trained enginner to sort it out ! CAP IN HAND ! Go for the Yama it has probably got a decent yamaha engine in it or if you want really cheap use one of these !
http://www.bluefishpromo.com/index.c...w=Personal+Fan

[Peter_1]

refrigration engineers working for a company dont earn that much money?,maybe if they are self employed i could believe it(

You're approaching this not correctly: surely the employer doesn't earn that money and surely this is the price the company has to charge.

From the price the company is asking you, insurance for their employer must be paid, social insurance if existing must be paid for the employer, taxes on the wage and the profit on the materials must be paid to the state, the tools to do the job must be paid, the van must be paid, the insurance for the van must be paid, the fuel must be paid, the certification for the company must be paid, the certification of the technician must be paid, the annual holiday days must be paid from this wage, ...

You understand now why so many small companies went bankrupt the first half-year in Belgium? It is the highest rate ever.
And it will not be different in the UK.

[Peter_1]

Oh, I forgot that from that wage, the 'non-chargeable' wages must also be compensated/paid.
Not chargeable wages for me: work that has to be done under warranty which rarely is paid back by the manufacturer, going on site to measure everything, make a quote in the company, go to the customer to explain your offer, go back a second time after some modifications, finally loose the job because they found someone cheaper, courses the employer and the company has to follow to be update, .....
All work that must be done unpaid to be sure that the employer get paid for every minute he's in the company.

[Peter_1]

Superswill started another thread which confirms somehow what I said.
I say to those who thinks that we all earn big money: why are you then so stupid not to start you own business?
We earn good money, mostly because we work 60 hours a week, taking sometimes risks, big risks,...

[Karl Hofmann]

We'll all be out of business at those prices!

Have you not seen the back of my van?


Dean, at the price R1976 quoted, he is making a wage, not a fortune..

[Peter_1]

MrCooling MAgic, I understand what you're saying but if that is Dean's choice, then we have to respect this.

If he wants to drive with a BMW and doesn't want to spent or hasn't not the money to buy a new one, then he always can bey a second-hand car.
I have also a BMW bike, but bought it second hand for several reasons although I could afford a new one.

That's choices you make and you know the consequences of it.

Anyhow, he will use his AC not that much, it is only while watching television and even then only in hot summer days.
If it consumes then a little bit more power, then he can run it many years before he gets to the price of a decent unit.

We're in a changing market, globalization they call it sometimes...
Dean wants an AC and he has different choices to do this.
He asked us for advice and we gave it him as technicians, how we see it.
But then, you have the market with good machines and let's say, not that '100% machines' but performing well to very good for most applications.

On the other hand, he said what he thought without harming someone. I liked that he didn't ended the discussion. I like open minds.

And anyhow he has somehow a valid point, he must pay almost a 2 month wages for a small airconditioning which he will rarely use.
I can understand his point of view and I hope Dean will buy a decent unit - whether it will be a well known brand or a ChinChangChong - and that he may have luck with hit.
You even can have troubles with a Daikin.
I only can add that he better let it install by a competent technician, and if it's a friend working in a AC company, well the better for our environment. This man will do it the proper way for a cheap price.

I personally think that the cheap goods will always be there and we will have to learn live with it.
But don't worry, this will change anyhow in a global market.
Fuel prices are sky-rocketing (2.45 USD/l fuel or 9.27 USD/USGallon in Belgium) and this will led to increasing transport costs for large volume and cheap goods. I read an article that this can be the end of cheap China toys: a toy is mostly very cheap but takes a lot of volume.
On the long term, only qualitative toys will remain.

[multisync]

Let him try getting his BMW serviced for less than £75.00 ph !!

Refrigeration & a.c engineers get paid as much as a garage mechanic have a higher 'running cost' (Van Mobile etc etc) yet the going rate is nowhere near theirs.

To post a competitor's rates as a way of justifying yours appears somewhat weak... I suggest we should all be pushing the rates up not down..

My employers rates are currently £40.00 and he doesn't live in some huge mansion I can tell you!!

Multisync
London

[Peter_1]

Multisync, I totally agree with you but the worser the market is going, the lower the prices are going also.
especially like we see here in our country where many one-man companies are starting because they all think they can make big money.
They're responsible for the low prices and working alone, they can work at a cheaper rate.

[fridge doctor]

Dean, give it up mate, if you think you can get a decent job done for anything less than a grand then you're a fool. This gear costs money, and our professional time and experience is worth much more. Get yourself a fan and suffer.

[multisync]

Multisync, I totally agree with you but the worser the market is going, the lower the prices are going also.
especially like we see here in our country where many one-man companies are starting because they all think they can make big money.
They're responsible for the low prices and working alone, they can work at a cheaper rate.

We could all see this thread turning into a Dutch auction and it's mid summer-not a good sign.

Indeed the Uk has 'suffered' from this with the added 'bonus' of many imported engineers. -Why some are even have safe handling (but that's another story)

The next few years will see many of those O.M.B's disapearing- both local labour returing to the security of a big company and the imports heading off back..

As mentioned on other parts the tightening of legistlation will see the market returing stronger with enforced restrictions. Sadly we have years of pain to go through before that particular Nirvana.

The 'who's slow' thread may well be the tip of the iceberg

Multisync
London

[philfridge]

Maybe i need to look at other options,as in my mind i was looking at paying £300-500 for a split system,and on top of that,had a guess a installment fees of around the £150-200 mark

You could buy the system dean but the cost of the system is not the problem. Its getting it installed which is the real cost involved , I guess you do not understand the work or skills involved to do this job. Nobody will install your own system anyway as you are cutting their profits and for the £150 -200 it is not worth it im afraid you have no chance.

[Makeit go Right]

Well, this is a useful lesson to us all.

The customer says I want aircon and we fly into what he needs for that application and give him a pucker quote for a suitable inverter system with photos and all the info, and he says "How much??"

Particularly in the domestic area, one has to ask, "What kind of sum are you thinking of paying for the aircon?" He says £500 all in, and then you know he's not talking about a custom installed split system.....he is talking about 1-2 Portables, or maybe a supply-only thro-wall jobbie, or possibly a DIY klunk-click split. All of which are not our zone.

Politely direct him to B&Q etc and get back to what you were doing before.

In a year or so, if he goes for thro-wall/portable(s), he will develop into someone who wants proper aircon and will have a sensible budget. Costs him more this way but he has to travel this path, normally. Then you can talk aircon with him and get going with a proper quote.

[deanH]

Thanks for all the replies guys,much appreciated
And for those that i guess didnt understand my position,i never really did say that install prices are a rip off
I merely stated,that i wouldnt want to pay that much ,and thus i would take a different route
I had no idea what these cost,hence the reason i came onto this forum asking for professional advice so i knew in my mind what i was dealing with,before i rang for some quotes and knew what to expect
If my budget allowed for a decent system,then thats the choice i would have made.
In my own mind,i was hoping i could buy a half decent split system for £400 or so,and then get it installed,possibly by someone doing a job on the side for about £200 tops
we all know this happens,people working for firms doing a little moonlighting.
I am hoping to speak to a family friend who fits these for a living also,as he is now back from spain from a six week trip.
I wil let you know how i get on with the quote

[multisync]

Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Multisync
London

[Peter_1]

Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Is this threatening? I think we may not try to be more holy than the Pope, everybody is searching for his profits and it's not up to us in this forum to judge this.

[deanH]

Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Multisync
London

Company details?
Now why on earth would you want those?,I dont own my own company,nor have i said i own my own company
so why would i be dodging the taxman?
If you are saying you have never done a job for cash,or avoided paying tax on goods in whatever capacity,then i'd guess you must work for the church and be a truly holy man.
If you wish to threaten me,then just come right and say it,I'd gladly welcome you to come around my house,and i'd give the details face to face,and then maybe we would see if you were so quick to judge.
You can PM if you so wish,and we can exchange details


I dont want this thread to turn into something that it isnt as most of the information has been very helpful,and opened my eyes into air-conditioning,and the costs involved which i sadly over-judged.

So the moderators can gladly close it on my behalf

[Peter_1]

Multisync, although English is not my language, you went a little bit too far, your comment had nothing to do with the subject at all.

[Daddy Cool]

I think Makeit Go Right hit the nail on the head. We know what's reasonable and what's not as we do it everyday, but domestic end users don't have a clue what's expensive and whats not. Don't mis-understand me, i find it frustrating and try to avoid domestic jobs for this very reason, they cost too much of my time for too little return.

[frank]

Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Multisync
London

It's not illegal for someone to employ a tradesperson and pay them cash.

What would be illegal is for that tradesperson not to declare the cash payment on their end of year tax return.

Dean

I hope that you manage to get your install for a relatively small sum. One point of caution - make sure that the installer is qualified otherwise it may cost you a lot more than you think in the long run.

[deanH]

Thanks frank
I spoke to the engineer today,he is still in spain and is due to return on thursday
I cant see him charging me a great deal,and it will be interesting to know what he has to say
I will keep all posted in the outcome
Many thanks for all the advice and help,of which without,i would never have decided on what to do and which system to go for.
A decent split system is the only way forward,and if i cant afford it,then i will go without.
NO sense in installing a half **** applaince as in the long it may or wont pay off is the conclusion i have come to.

[frank]

Dean

Keep your eye peeled at B&Q. They were promoting the self install Air....... something or other split system, and a friend of mine purchased 2 of them a while back.

He's a Controls expert but he managed to install these himself in his home as they come with pre-charged lines. He says that since install ( over 2 years) he hasn't had any problems and he's very happy.
Just thinking that B&Q are not pushing these anymore but they are still for sale and may be sold off cheap as 'End of Lines' - especially as we are having crap summers for the past couple of years.

[p_p]

Its a good job he hasn't had a problem frank as the back up doesn't exist.
I personaly would not promote such rubbish, have you seen some of the diy installs on your travells they can only get the industry a bad name.
Maybe we could start a site where enginneers can post photos of diy installs that they see on there travells.

Regards

PP

[Peter_1]

p-p you can post these photo's here on RE, 'Trail of Tears' section.
Since many years, you have to take in account that you will have two different markets: the well known brands with high efficiency but not as cheap as these units you can take of the shelves in a DIY shop.
Each has his own public and as a technician, you must choose the brands which stands behind the techs.
But how long will it take before well known brands will be sold in DIY shops? I saw already many brands in the DIY shops here in Belgium, some well known by everybody.

[frank]

Its a good job he hasn't had a problem frank as the back up doesn't exist.
I personaly would not promote such rubbish, have you seen some of the diy installs on your travells they can only get the industry a bad name.
Maybe we could start a site where enginneers can post photos of diy installs that they see on there travells.

Regards

PP

I agree p_p but Dean hasn't got the funds available for a proper install.
At least with pre-charged lines he can fit it himself and save the £150 install costs he was looking to pay

[Peter_1]

And he will have what he needs: a fresh room and that's all what counts.

[Rhew]

The next few years will see many of those O.M.B's disapearing- both local labour returing to the security of a big company and the imports heading off back..
Ive been a O.M.B for over a quater of a century, so looking foreward to be getting the security,holidays,sick scheme,somebody else to cover etc, when I get taken on by a big company

[superswill]

what a great thread,Ive enjoyed this one from a far but now my 10p worth is coming

OK so we all know cant do these jobs on the cheap if your after a quality product and it being install correctly (duty,functions ect ect) i agree maybe they is a space for these DIY monsters in providing a little comfort cooling or heating but certainly not in commercial properties and surly not conservatories

but as dean said he wasn't expecting to pay anyway near what we in the trade would class as "the norm"
in the publics eye are we just seen as top it up and wipe it down men? have all these DIY systems on the market sold use as tradesmen sort? does every think i hung my door i can do the same with a split?

no-one bats an eye lid when they call a plumber,boiler man or spark out and pay they fees,why not us?

is it these DIY splits? or is it as an industry in the UK we are miles and have always been behind other trades in laws and qualifications (yes F gas is coming but hasn't it been for the last ten years!)?

just another superswill put the world to rights post

[Karl Hofmann]

no-one bats an eye lid when they call a plumber,boiler man or spark out and pay they fees,why not us?

Trust me, they winge like **** at having to pay for a gas man and they will do everything that they can to avoid having to call us out.. Sometimes they ar only found out when the TOFOs have changed their meter and capped their gas supply off due to leaks found.

Gas men have the same problem when the customer has been to B&Q, seen a £399 combi and then wonder why my quote is so high to fit a Worcester or a Vaillant.

Seen plenty of DIY boiler installs, hobs not fitted correctly and flueless gas fires with no ventillation and churning out Carbon Monoxide.. Many supplied by the big sheds or the internet, so I would guess that the other trades have the same problem too..

I would suggest that domestic ac work is totally different to industrial ac work and so it is difficult to price a domestic job using industrial rates...

[deanH]

Just an update guys,spoke to the fitter,and he quoted me £150 to fit
All i have to do is sort the unit and double check with him its the correct split system.
Price includes full install,and mounting the fan unit on a set concrete slab with polystyrene (he said this is better to avoid excess noise and vibration)

He also said to avoid DC invertor models as he said they actually dont cost any less to run,and the claim of using say 1kw in and producing 3kw out isnt exactly true