Need some advice in conservatory air con-heating

[deanH]

I also forgot guys
What do you lot make of "york air-con" units?
He told me to ring a trade company,and they suggested a york 3.5kw cooling/3.5 kw heating with 12000btu for 305+vat

[Karl Hofmann]

Just an update guys,spoke to the fitter,and he quoted me £150 to fit
All i have to do is sort the unit and double check with him its the correct split system.
Price includes full install,and mounting the fan unit on a set concrete slab with polystyrene (he said this is better to avoid excess noise and vibration)

He also said to avoid DC invertor models as he said they actually dont cost any less to run,and the claim of using say 1kw in and producing 3kw out isnt exactly true

Then I would say that he is probably worth the money that you are paying..

[deanH]

Karl
He normally works on big industrial units mainly at airports alike etc
From what i understand he normally earns in excess of double what he is charging ,but he is a family friend doing me a favour i guess
he said it would only take half a days fitting as the position of the pipework and drainage pipe couldnt be more better placed.

[Makeit go Right]

"he said it would only take half a day's fitting."

So, presumably there's not going to be much time wasted on a pressure test and a decent vac-out, if he's going to crash the thing in in just 4 hours.

And, if he does not know about the 1kw in and 3kw out principle of heat pumps, nor the reasons for better energy consumption from inverters, not to say anything about a non-inverter's impact on the TV etc (flicking each time it starts up) well, £150 is about right for that kind of installation. You get what you pay for.

Also, Deal, as you are to be an Operator, of an Air-Conditioning system containing an F-gas...........

Since July 2007, the new EU F-Gas Regulations require Operators (end-users) of
air-conditioning systems to ensure that only engineers that have obtained the legal minimum certification be engaged to carry out any tasks involving handling of the
F-Gas refrigerants (eg R407c and R410a). This would include all new installations, and the maintenance, repair, or disposal of all existing air-conditioning systems.

Statutory Instrument SI2008/41 lists out the current legal minimum certification required to be held by engineers assigned to handle the refrigerants covered by the
F-Gas Regulation. The certificates are: “City & Guilds 2078 HANDLING REFRIGERANTS ASSESSMENT” or an approved and current “REFRIGERATION HANDLING ASSESSMENT” by the CITB. Operators are legally required to only use engineers that hold one of these certificates.



Suggest you check his certificates are in order before he gets his tools out, just in case he is lacking this legal requirement (being placed on your shoulders).

[deanH]

I dont mean to sound rude to anyone but the fitter is a very experienced engineer,and i did say he was doing it as a favour to me and i am sure he has all the needed paperwork,otherwise i wouldnt have asked him,and i guess he wouldnt be allowed to work at the major airports either.
Its correct he said it would only take half a days fitting,and you have wrongly assumed he works a 8 hour day.
I never did say anything about him testing the system,I only said he will take him half a day to fit it.
he will test it afterwards he has said.
In respect to the dc invertors,i have spoken to a york air con distributor,and i put to him the pro's/cons with the dc invertors,and he said you most likely gain a saving of no more than 10-15% in energy costs against a fixed speed unit.
I can see some are trying to justify why some charge over £500+ for a residential install,but i am not prepared to pay that amount.
If anyone wishes to come and inspect the install to see what a mess he has made,they are more than welcome (I dont mean to sound sarcastic,but i must defend the guy in his absence as i know he is more than capable of doing the job)

I didnt know about the "tv" flicking everytime the unit starts so i am glad you pointed that out,so thats something i will put to him,and see if i can stretch to a DC invertor unit

Its all about budget and what i am prepared to pay and the end of the day.
Just because i am not employing a company with massive overheads doesnt mean i am getting a second rate job.
No one here can assume that without actually knowing the engineer in question.

[Prince Vaillant]

Try a VAILLANT V11-025 W CLIMAVAIR PRO 2.5KW FIXED SPEED WALL MOUNT or a racs09 Diy Air Conditioning Unit 3.5kw Heating and Cooling.

[deanH]

Try a VAILLANT V11-025 W CLIMAVAIR PRO 2.5KW FIXED SPEED WALL MOUNT or a racs09 Diy Air Conditioning Unit 3.5kw Heating and Cooling.

I did look at vailant air con units,i have a boiler made by them and it is very reliable
I looked at the prices and they seen very reasonable
Might even beable to stretch to a DC unit
I seen the VAH 6-035 NW for £417 and the VAHE 039 NW for £528 which are both DC
Seems they are new to the u.k market,so i dont know how good they are or what warranty they come with?

The more i look at though,the more i get confused.
I would love to have a top unit,along with being DC,its just the price thats hampering me
It might be a case of waiting a few more weeks and save a little more to stretch that little bit further in terms of price

[Brian_UK]

Nice to see this thread churning along but it is beginning to get a little heated chaps.

Poor Dean only wants to get his conservatory heated or cooled for the minimum amount and with as little trouble as possible.

Be honest now, we all want that when we have to pay for it ourselves.

Also, as has been said above, there are rules and regulations coming into play but I expect Dean will have sold his house and moved on before it has any impact on the domestic market.

I'm with Karl on the CORGI comments and perhaps as the domestic market increases things will change.

However I think that we should relax a little bit and not high-jack Dean's thread for an anti-privateer rant.

For my two-pennys worth I would try for an inverter Dean if only to give you a quieter system; as well as the softer start.

Thanks all, Brian

[Peter_1]

"he said it would only take half a day's fitting."

So, presumably there's not going to be much time wasted on a pressure test and a decent vac-out, if he's going to crash the thing in in just 4 hours.

And, if he does not know about the 1kw in and 3kw out principle of heat pumps, nor the reasons for better energy consumption from inverters, not to say anything about a non-inverter's impact on the TV etc (flicking each time it starts up) well, £150 is about right for that kind of installation. You get what you pay for.

Also, Deal, as you are to be an Operator, of an Air-Conditioning system containing an F-gas...........

Since July 2007, the new EU F-Gas Regulations require Operators (end-users) of air-conditioning systems to ensure that only engineers that have obtained the legal minimum certification be engaged to carry out any tasks involving handling of the F-Gas refrigerants (eg R407c and R410a). This would include all new installations, and the maintenance, repair, or disposal of all existing air-conditioning systems.

Pressure testing and vac-out (only 2 tot 4 meters tubes of 1/4 an 3/8, done while connecting electricity and drinking a beer) can perfectly be done in a 4 hours install.
Leak check has to be done only on 4 connections.
We've installed Thursday a wall unit, lines through the roof, drain to existing point, power already available in 4 hours with 2 man.
We've done in the past 3 (easy) installs/day and Chemi did once a similar job which went even faster.


Is there already the possibility to take the necessary exams/test to be UK certified (personal and company certification)?
I thought that the UK wasn't ready yet.

[Peter_1]

That's why we ask our price - 40 €/ hours + transport time + transport costs at high fuel price + additional items (brackets, condensate pumps) and all with a reasonable margin on it) and if it's too expensive, well, then they have to search for another one who can do it cheaper.

And they will find that other one, especially amongst the techs who are working for a company and can do this of course for a much smaller rate in the black circuit.
You can't avoid this and this is the nowadays market.

I always refuse to install anything another one gives me.
Even it's a socket, a fuse, an AC, a compressor, ...
This should something basic for every self-respecting tech but you will always find techs who really needs the job.

Like another posted said: I try to figure out what price the customer has in his head. If it's not a fair price, then I even don't give a quote for it.
I even refuse to give a quote when I hear that some of my 'bargain competitors' are giving also a quote.
Like said in another thread: Daikin "A" installed by company X is not the same as Daikin "A" installed by company Y.

I also refuse to install monobloc units for the same reason.

Don't forget also the well known manufacturing companies, offering direct to the end-user. In the AC box is a voucher 'good for 1 basic install'
The installer then gets paid +/- 400 Euros all included (power source, ducts, install, some small margin on the AC, warranty..) from the manufacturer and the installer must give also 1 year warranty.

I understand you and agree with you but you can be mad for this practices or turn your back to it. I'm turning my back and I concentrate me on the jobs where I can add some personal, additional value, sold to customers who it done properly and who wants also service afterwards.
I'm no longer concentrating my business on this market of small splits for very common domestic applications.

Realize that this DIY market is a growing market in every field: heating, plumbing, refrigeration, ...

And I understand also perfectly the end-users who're looking for a cheap solution of a small problem. And this solution exists.

We normally work here around 40 €/hour, industrial guys (NH3) working at 50 or 60 €/hour
I had a colleague working on NH3 at 30 €/hour. You could imagine that he could work 7 days a week/24 hours/day.
We're living in a free market.

Perhaps some fragmented thoughts but I hope you understand what I mean.

[Makeit go Right]

Leak check has to be done only on 4 connections.

Presumably you are testing for gas leaks after you let the gas go into the new pipework/system, and using soapy water on the flares, yes?

All you are testing that way is the standing pressure (possibly the working pressure if you switch on) of the system And possibly not the max working pressure of the system, as it fluctuates.

Soapy water on the flares may be a useful test for gas leaks on a system that has been previously installed and running, but it is not an adequate pressure test for a new system installation.

What I mean by a proper pressure test is a test with nitrogen to an appropriate test pressure for that system. And ideally you would leave it there over night, though 4hours would be useful (while you complete all the other bits and have your lunch/beer).

[Peter_1]

No, you may not charge refrigerant as long as you didn't perform a leak and pressure test according to EN378.

If I should have refrigerant on the lines, then I don't use soap but my D-Tek.
Testing with gas is not allowed.
Okay, let's say it otherwise, in 5', I have my bottle of nitrogen at the outdoor unit. I also have lines to my manifold of 5 m (15 ft) and 10 m (30ft)
After 2 minutes it's pressurized at 40 bar and use some soap and i don't look to the result.

In the meantime, connect electricity, load my van, clean the workplace inside and outside, bring the vac unit to the outdoor unit, ...All this takes 30 minutes and in the meantime, a Iregulary look if I don't see bubbles.

Nobody says it has to be done for 4 hours or a whole night.
This is economically not feasible.

If you made your own flares or soldering, then you know yourself and your work.
Most small installs even don't need a pressure test.

If my pressure is still 40 bar, I start the vac-out after releasing then nitrogen.

[jelecto]

hi. i m not english speaking. and i will do my best 4 help u.
the split system is really better, and more quite, due to the compressor are out side, and also they make it now vry efficiente.
also it is very easy to install and if you propous your self you can make it. without any help.
best regards javier

[stevo]

[deanH]

Hi guys,not posted here for a while
Not actually bought an air conditioning unit yet,as my cash flow had to be directed towards other things
the conservatory is being built as we speak though,so all being well cash flow wise,i will be dipping into the market for an DC invertor unit.
I was about to spend around the £700 mark,until i seen this offer at B&Q
Seems a very good sale price for a DC invertor set up
what do you guys think,....the information on it is a little thin
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/na...isSearch=false

[The Viking]

Good luck, all the best and all that..

[deanH]

bought the airforce invertor system for £294,12,000btu coolingcapacity with 3.9kw heat output
the price was to good to miss for an invertor,and its a easy d.i.y install so the tech guy at airforce tells me (not sure he knew what he was talking about to be honest,so he may be wrong),if he's right,i will install it myself
be o.k for we need i guess,and for the price of a decent invertor with a brand name,i could have bought 3 of these
The guy at airforce supplies couldnt believe b&q were selling them at this price,poor summer i guess is the cause for that...so it was a nice tip to the previous poster who told me to keep an "eye" on the website.

thanks for all your help guys