R12 substitution?

**pirestani** · 10-10-2003, 12:19 PM

dear friends:
we,re looking for a satisfactory substitution of R12 (with similar property)
please forget R134a because we have too much difficulty on it & its lubricant in our large systems.
how do you see future.
thanks a lot for a best suggestion.

**chemi-cool** · 10-10-2003, 03:29 PM

Hi pirestani,
Your problem is not new. In the past years I have changed many refrigeration systems to r-22. you will need to change the expantion valve and the compressor the rest is usually ok.
the evaporator temperature is important, r-22 will have some problems returning oil at low temp. if condensor is higher then the evaporator.
chemi-cool

**Latte** · 10-10-2003, 06:40 PM

Hello Pirestani,
How long are you looking to keep the unit(s) going for.
i am sorry to say but most gas companies seem to think he long term replacement for R12 will be either R134a or R414a.

As far as interim gases go, i always use R409a and havn't had any problems. Also i am told you can use R401a or R413a but i havn't had any dealings with this.

Just bear in mind that a lot of these gases contain R134a anyway.

**Latte** · 10-10-2003, 06:42 PM

CORRECTION :-
The top paragraph should say R134a or R413a NOT R414a

Sorry

**herefishy** · 10-10-2003, 08:20 PM

Hi Pirestani,

For medium/high temperature applications, R-416A is a good replacement, with similar if not lower pressures. R-416A is NOT a good low temp drop in, however. You will likely have to give a TEV one turn to a higher superheat setting if you drop in some R-416A. Always be sure to check and adjust superheat after switching gasses.

R-409A runs higher pressures, and in medium temp applications you may run into some problems on some equipment that is applied in the upper range of it's recommended application.

R-401A runs about the exact same pressures.

R-414B ("Hot Shot" is a common brand name) from what I understand is a very good replacement for all applications. I hear everyone brag about it. I haven't used it myself, but looking at the P/T chart, it looks good.

**frank** · 11-10-2003, 06:23 PM

We always drop in R49. More or less the same as far as duty and pressures are concerned.

**Andy** · 11-10-2003, 07:57 PM

Hi

R49 will increase system capacity, so watch out if your condenser is already tight. Good gas but does not suit all application, i.e. flooded operation, refrigerant is unproven and may stratify into layers of refrigerants, all boiling at differing temperatures.
I use 401a, which gives me slightly lower condensing pressures than 409a in the applications I work on.
Regards. Andy.

**Latte** · 11-10-2003, 09:16 PM

Don't know about commercial operations but on transport systems, especially carriers found problems with R49 at low temps not returning the oil & knocking out compressors.
I always use R409 and havn't had major probs although i would normally chage at 10% less first and see how it goes

**Prof Sporlan** · 11-10-2003, 10:46 PM

The Prof suspects he might have been on holidays when refrigerant R49 came about. Is this refrigerant ISCEON 49, aka R-413A, a refrigerant blend of R-218/R-134a/R-600a (9/88/3 mass percentages)? He has a file showing ISCEON 49 originally developed by Rhone-Poulenc. But Rhone-Poulenc is apparently not manufacturing refrigerants anymore. A web search shows at least part of this firm being acquired by Hoechst AG, a firm the Prof recalls manufacturing a refrigerant called HX4. A web search also shows Rhodia is distributing, and perhaps manufacturing ISCEON 49. If someone could fill in the blanks here, it would be appreciated

**Latte** · 11-10-2003, 11:32 PM

Hello Prof,
R/Isceon 49 that i used came from Isceon Distribution Services in Bristol (UK). Their website is WWW.idsrefrigeration.co.uk

I havn't been on the website so don't know if they still sell it as a R12 replacement and must stress if was about 2 years ago we tried it.

Regards

Raymond

**frank** · 12-10-2003, 12:55 PM

I stand corrected Prof. R413A is the correct name.

http://www.isceon-refrigerants.com/product/isceon49.htm

**Andy** · 12-10-2003, 08:09 PM

Professor,
Isceon 49 was developed by Rhone -Poulenc and Forbes Pearson (who owns quite a bit of Star Refrigeration) and as stated it is sold in Europe by Isceon Distribution Services. I will enquire who now makes it. There is a range of similar refrigerant drop-ins for R502 and R22, R69L,R69S and R59. which are good drop-ins, but what I would call not mainstream drop-ins.
At present a new R22 drop-in for flooded operation is being tested.
Kind Regards. Andy

**MRW** · 15-10-2003, 10:24 PM

Can anyone suggest an R12 replacement gas for an A/C system on a Lear jet?
the system is located in the wing and is subjected to temps as low as -50c when at altitude and up to 40c when on the landing strip in the mediterainian.
The gas that is used must also have an certficate of compliance to satisfy F.A.A regulations.
we had considered using 49L but wondered what effect the cold ambient would have on the oil with this gas.

**MRW** · 15-10-2003, 10:25 PM

Can anyone suggest an R12 replacement gas for an A/C system on a Lear jet?
the system is located in the wing and is subjected to temps as low as -50c when at altitude and up to 40c when on the landing strip in the mediterainian.
The gas that is used must also have an certficate of compliance to satisfy F.A.A regulations.
we had considered using 49L but wondered what effect the cold ambient would have on the oil with this gas.

**Andy** · 15-10-2003, 10:38 PM

Hi MRW

The oil for R49 is as per R12. Apart from changing the oil for new as good practice dictates the oil is not an issue. However I have a feeling that the -50 deg C might cause the mix to separate out.
If in doubt contact Isceon Distribution Services who will I'm sure help out.
Kind Regards. Andy.

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