PermaFrost... any good?

[sprockett]

We are running a ~600 ton, Frick screw, flooded 2 stage ammonia system in hong kong.
Last week a sales man came to me and the manager to explain the significent financial savings of adding PermaFrost (.permafrostonline.com) into our system.
I have never been a believer of the "magic pill" as they normally do more damage than good.
Has anyone used this product? what does it do to to your plant.. any long term damage? or is it really all they say
Is it really going to mean I can run fewer screws more of the time? and cut my running costs by 20%?
I am after some real data(not pimped from one of the many PermaFrost websites) to advise my boss so he dosent make a big mistake that I have to clean up later.

Thanks

[NH3LVR]

Sounds like what we call "snake oil" in the USA.
I would caution you against it.

[750 Valve]

just going by the below pic from the permafrost website, would the oil not then form a layer just under the permafrost coating? Thereby still "reducing" the heat exchange efficiency as permafrost claim?

[US Iceman]

Reducing the operating costs by 20% is a reasonable number for other discussions, but NOT for an oil additive. I simply don't believe an oil additive can do that.

Here's a few questions you can ask the salesman...

If we were to use your product can you guarantee the reductions over a specific time period?

Will you provide a complete equipment replacement over that same time period if your product has adverse effects on our equipment?

How will you determine the savings, and what must we do to ensure the conditions are met to your satisfaction in case a claim is made by us for equipment repair or replacement?

These questions will probably make him want to leave quickly or get off of the telephone!

[chillywilly]

did not have any effect on new small tonnage units.

Their data shows performance increases on used equipment which may be the case.

[keepitcool]

You hit the nail on the head NH3LVR. This sound like snake oil to me. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.

[lucky131]

i have read a great deal about the thoughts of Refrigeration engineers about Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives., Many thoughts have been to simply write this stuff off as "snake oil". Some of you guys have backed the science behind the theory but doubted that they would work in practise and others (not many) have supported them.
Last month i witnessed the use of 30ml of a product called Permafrost being applied to a 5 year old split system 8KW air-conditioner. The ambient outside temperature was 30 degrees celsius (yes i'm metric). We had an infra red thermal gun aimed at a set point on the vent outlet. The airconditioner had been running for 1 hour and the compressor was running. The permafrost was administered and within 5 minutes the temperature had dropped to minus 2 degrees celsius a temperature difference of 9 degrees.

It was one of the most impressive tests i have ever witnessed. Added to this was the fact that the compressor was distinctly quieter.

Can anyone tell me what possibly could cause such a dynamic change in this split system other than what PROA's are designed to do? I am cynical and skeptical in most things, but i am afraid that seeing is believing and unless someone can tell me what else could possibly have caused the change i mentioned above, then maybe the 70% of PROA skeptics might want to re-think there position.

Am i alone in this matter or are there others out there who have witnessed PROA's in action?

[The MG Pony]

i have read a great deal about the thoughts of Refrigeration engineers about Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives., Many thoughts have been to simply write this stuff off as "snake oil". Some of you guys have backed the science behind the theory but doubted that they would work in practise and others (not many) have supported them.
Last month i witnessed the use of 30ml of a product called Permafrost being applied to a 5 year old split system 8KW air-conditioner. The ambient outside temperature was 30 degrees celsius (yes i'm metric). We had an infra red thermal gun aimed at a set point on the vent outlet. The airconditioner had been running for 1 hour and the compressor was running. The permafrost was administered and within 5 minutes the temperature had dropped to minus 2 degrees celsius a temperature difference of 9 degrees.

It was one of the most impressive tests i have ever witnessed. Added to this was the fact that the compressor was distinctly quieter.

Can anyone tell me what possibly could cause such a dynamic change in this split system other than what PROA's are designed to do? I am cynical and skeptical in most things, but i am afraid that seeing is believing and unless someone can tell me what else could possibly have caused the change i mentioned above, then maybe the 70% of PROA skeptics might want to re-think there position.

Am i alone in this matter or are there others out there who have witnessed PROA's in action?

We have an amazing saying here too: Theres a sucker born every second, and you're one!

Another faverit of mine is: Any thing is possible when you don't know what your talking about, again mate you fit the bill.

Why don't you go learn some things and then you'll know why we write it off! Cheaper to wright off the crap their pushing then to wright off our equipment!

[The MG Pony]

FYI when your air con finaly blows up and is utterly un-repairable lets see if you're singing the same tune I wager you won't be so impressed any more!

Oh and man have I seen PROAs in action, seized barrings, metal grindings in the crank, badly scored pistons and warren journals, snapped rods due to seizing, dam does it ever work great at killing em! Works long enough to make the sucker think its fixed and gives the peddler time to skip town with the cash!

I suggest you call in a REAL tech to get the problem fixed properly and check the HACK at the door!

[750 Valve]

probably clogged the metering device just enough to lower the sst and decrease the air off the coil.....


power input probably went through the roof while you were staring at the infra red gun pointed at a duct.


I will never believe it unless provided with a lot more data than a temp gun pointed at a duct. Got any?


Also lucky131 I note you list your occupation as "electrical" - did they have a special on temp guns at JR Turk's? They meant for you to check for hot joints with them mate, wielding a temp gun does not mean you are a fridgey

[keepitcool]

Snake oil is not a phrase that was made up on this forum. I have seen people add these things to compressors and yes maybe at the very beginning they reduce friction but you can not convince me that the big boys (compressor manufacturers) have not spent millions if not billions researching these or any possible product to get out in front of the competition. Some guy selling this stuff out of the back of his Buick does not have the backing or credentials to add anything to the compressors I have installed or service. I would spare no expense to keep my good customers from using this garbage.

[referdogAC]

Permafrost is not a PROA. PROA was invented by PolorShield a long time ago. ( I guess I'm showing my age here). They made a lot of product and there is still a lot of old product out there. My opinion was it was snake oil then.

Permafrost is a relatively new technology from what I understand by the same chemist that founded PolarShield.

I wouldn't use a PROA because that technology was developed al long time ago for different refrigerants. And there are a lot of bull**** companies trying to sell old proa product. We did our due diligence and man there is a lot of weird **** out there. But when you look at the patents it pretty clear who the real deal is.

But PermaFrost does work very well. We have it in 5 chillers and a lot of DX and the stuff works.

Initially I was a skeptic. And it took a long time to prove to our organization that the product does work. But after about 2 years of testing... You can't fight the data when it stacks up against you.

As far as the manufactures supporting the products, ya right. You think a manufacture is going to recommend a product that makes your system last longer and bring the SEER rating back to what it was when it was new. Not likely. they make their money on new equipment. I don’t know any companies that recommend products that reduce their revenue. I guess I’m guilty here I have a Dyson vacuum.

We tried it, it works. The manufactures website is powertronglobal com. They are in the usa and they back the product 100%. All the other sites are resellers or whatever.

Everyone has their own take on it I guess but I can generally accept the fact that oil migration is a problem. Why keep the coils clean. Go sling some mud on them and see if that effects the power bill. I didn't get it at first either so I'm not slamming anyone. I'm just saying if you haven't tried it you just don't know.

Due your due diligence on anyone claiming to be a proa, because of all the technologies we looked at Permafrost was the only one that was legitimate. Just do your research and ask lots of questions and look at who owns what patents.

[Gary]

Hmmm... everyone who likes this stuff has 1 or 2 posts. Not sure what that means, but its an interesting coincidence.

[lowcool]

dont suppose the coincidence would be pure alcohol

[Gary]

If somebody, in their very first post says, "this product is wonderful", I'm thinking spam.

If one first poster says, "is this product any good?", and a second first poster says, "this product is wonderful", I'm thinking team spam.

Throw in a third first poster and we have a spam sandwich.

... or maybe its just a coincidence.

[Frickman]

Dont worry guys they will be replacing seals and strainers and major equitment for years if theyve add this stuff. These wonderful guys need to think about when a sytem is designed (or a compressor) the oil is part of the design! DUH thats why theres 50,000 different oils on the market!

[cajunkid]

We are running a ~600 ton, Frick screw, flooded 2 stage ammonia system in hong kong.
Last week a sales man came to me and the manager to explain the significent financial savings of adding PermaFrost (.permafrostonline.com) into our system.
I have never been a believer of the "magic pill" as they normally do more damage than good.
Has anyone used this product? what does it do to to your plant.. any long term damage? or is it really all they say
Is it really going to mean I can run fewer screws more of the time? and cut my running costs by 20%?
I am after some real data(not pimped from one of the many PermaFrost websites) to advise my boss so he dosent make a big mistake that I have to clean up later.

Thanks

You WILL definitely cut your costs by 20% easy. I'm in Vegas & my bill on a 3000 sq. ft. home on avg. July/August summer months less than $180 2 units . All of my neighbors bill from Nevada Power are above $300. Installed in my vehicle over 4 years ago & it's still ice cold 11 degrees vent. temp.. ONE TIME APPLICATION & It's Green Friendly

You hear about replacing orings & gaskets but this stuff actually helps the lubricity of your eqpt..

The PermaFrost is not designed to replace ***** or one of the many oils preinstalled on eqpt.. I'd bet my Harley Softail the stuff is Guaranteed 2 work on any type of refrigeration. Bam, I said it..2 all of u skeptics out there.