Going Self Employed - Legal Aspects.

[Radlam]

Hey All,

I've taken the plunge and decided to go self employed. I am currently in the process of getting all the paperwork sorted out, wow there is alot to do!

So far I've designed all my invoices, quotes, job sheets, service sheets, time sheets, business cards, letter headed paper amongst a few other things.

On the legal side, I've got my refrigerant record log sorted, COSHH data sheets, F Gas Record sheets, TREM cards...

Is there anything else I've missed off the list? I want to make sure everything is squeeky clean before I even go and do my first job. I want to start as I mean to go on with all the required paperwork.

Also, has anyone got any good insurance companies they can recommened. I've had a few quotes already but would like a few more first before I go ahead.

Same goes for Van insurance if possible

Think thats about enough for one post. If anyone has got any good advice, id really appreciate it!

Thanks

Rick

[frank]

Hi Rick

It's nice to get all the legal stuff in place from day one but the most important thing in any business is 'CUSTOMERS'

Without customers, you have no need for all of the paperwork.

I know it sounds like pouring water on all your aspirations, but you need some one to charge for all of your expenditure.

Try to concentrate on where your money is coming from.

Good luck with your venture though.

[Radlam]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for your input.

I am in a good positon at the moment where I can build up my customer base without the worry of how im going to pay my bills etc. My startup costs so far have been reasonably low as I already had most of my own tools etc which account for alot of the initial cost.

I am starting on Thursday going to visit various potential customers. I am going to start with the Conservatory companies in the area as it seems a good place to start as any

Rick

[Grizzly]

Rick.
Been self employed twice in my Career.
And to add to the good advise you have allready had is..

Check out the payment terms... You can have all the work you can deal with and more.

But if no-one is paying you your dead in the water.

You need to be aware whether it's 60, 90, or even 120 days payment.

It used to be known as CASH FLOW. Don't know what the young and clever call it now.

But my sincere best wishes. I truly hope it all works out.

By the way have you also got risk assessments.

They used to build rooms to house computers now they build them to house the paperwork they produce!

Grizzly.

ps I have had good results in the past using those Insurance web search sites. The ones that advertise a lot. Plus check out N.F.U. I have heard they can be good.

[Radlam]

Hi Grizzly,

Yeah, that is a concern of mine about being paid from jobs. Ive heard of a few people going under due to large unpaid invoices from big contracts. I will be getting deposits upfront for any large work carried out to cover the cost of equipment/materials. Some people don't like doing this, but why should we be taking all the risk??

As for service work, I will try and get paid on completion of each job if possible. If not I will give them 30 days payment which will include a credit charge. This will hopefully encourage them to pay on completion rather than waiting and paying an extra 5% or whatever I decide.

Risk assessments, Is on my list to do and I have got some "templates" to hand to use as "research" Do you all just use a generic risk assessment for various jobs, or do you carry out one on every site?

I have always been told that if your generic risk assessment is thorough, a mental risk assessment carried out on each site is enough?

[The Viking]

I have always been told that if your generic risk assessment is thorough, a mental risk assessment carried out on each site is enough?

Legally, they do need to be site specific.

Realistically, at least change the name and address of the customer.

[eggs]

Hi Rick

It's nice to get all the legal stuff in place from day one but the most important thing in any business is 'CUSTOMERS'

Without customers, you have no need for all of the paperwork.

I know it sounds like pouring water on all your aspirations, but you need some one to charge for all of your expenditure.

Try to concentrate on where your money is coming from.

Good luck with your venture though.

Can i second what Frank says?
I don't mean to dampen you enthusiasm, but i feel there are some very hard times ahead in our industry, especially at the bottom end of the market, like conservatories and domestic work etc...
I'm in the same neck of the woods as you and a couple of big names have gone !pop! recently in the NorthWest. I know of one other winding down, another making redundancies and another with lads cleaning there vans and sweeping the workshop.
I don't mean to sound despondant, but i have had my worst year in 9 years of trading.

Good Luck

eggs

[declan simmonds]

hello rick sounds like you have most things sorted,i have been self employed for about 8 years my self its not all plain sailing as the other members said its all about cash flow
If your not getting paid on time it can make things difficult i know the market is struggling at the momment as one of the members said, personally i have always done work for hospitals and other offcical goverment departments as they always pay on time and you know that the work you do will be paid unlike your local chain of resturants also you have to trust your accountant as some are very happy to take your money but not so willing to help you out.
good luck

[Radlam]

Wow, some interesting comments so far. Fingers crossed the industry will pick up again for everyone.

I think the key to my success will be keeping the business at a reasonable size I can manage. I don't want huge overheads which could cause the business to fail if 1 customer doesn't pay his bill. I want to build it up gradually without the need to borrow from the banks as this is where alot of people fail. Too much initial borrowing without the regular income to meet the repayments!

Anyone got any more info on insurance before I take the plunge on my biggest 1 outlays so far?

[paul_h]

Not local so can't help much, but I did start my own business.
For insurance get public liablity, vehicle and trade tools coverage.
Many insurers offer it as a package here, as "tradesmans insurance".

Insuring the tools and equipment in your van is a must if they get stolen or damaged in a crash, normal vehical insurance doesn't cover them or charges way more than the public liablity insurers charge. You can;t work without tools, you may not be able to afford replacing them out of your own pocket in a few months from now.

I started my business 2 months ago, all from my own savings. I'm happy to hear that's your plan too.
I would have been screwed if I borrowed money for my van, tools etc. But I'm earning enough to pay my living costs so I'm happy.

Customers are hard to find, so I'm only getting 20hrs a week, but I admit I haven't tried too hard.
I don't want to get too big too quick or work on things I'm not really confident to touch.
Right now I'm doing mainly splits and ducted, as I know what I'm doing, and have not had any callbacks of the bad kind, so I must be doing something right.
I've got to say though, I left and started my own business in dealing with split systems because I realised only a handfull of people in my city knew more than me, most people in the trade didn't have a clue, and so for that's not egotistical since the custmers are saying the same things.
I started the business because I had a niche and lots of knowledge compared to the competition. Just make sure that you think you were the most qualified person in your company before you take the plunge. An average tech starting their own business has nothing offer against the more established businesses with advertising budgets, more staff, more industry contacts etc

[Grizzly]

Not local so can't help much, but I did start my own business.
For insurance get public liablity, vehicle and trade tools coverage.
Many insurers offer it as a package here, as "tradesmans insurance".

Insuring the tools and equipment in your van is a must if they get stolen or damaged in a crash, normal vehical insurance doesn't cover them or charges way more than the public liablity insurers charge. You can;t work without tools, you may not be able to afford replacing them out of your own pocket in a few months from now.






I started my business 2 months ago, all from my own savings. I'm happy to hear that's your plan too.
I would have been screwed if I borrowed money for my van, tools etc. But I'm earning enough to pay my living costs so I'm happy.

Customers are hard to find, so I'm only getting 20hrs a week, but I admit I haven't tried too hard.
I don't want to get too big too quick or work on things I'm not really confident to touch.
Right now I'm doing mainly splits and ducted, as I know what I'm doing, and have not had any callbacks of the bad kind, so I must be doing something right.
I've got to say though, I left and started my own business in dealing with split systems because I realised only a handfull of people in my city knew more than me, most people in the trade didn't have a clue, and so for that's not egotistical since the custmers are saying the same things.
I started the business because I had a niche and lots of knowledge compared to the competition. Just make sure that you think you were the most qualified person in your company before you take the plunge. An average tech starting their own business has nothing offer against the more established businesses with advertising budgets, more staff, more industry contacts etc

Paul
Sadly in U.K. Theft from Tradesman's Vehicles has got so bad that.
It is almost impossible to get Insurance for tools.
And definitely not if left in your Van / Vehicle overnight.

Having lost 2 van-loads whilst self employed.
I was overjoyed when I discovered ebay!
Grizzly

[paul_h]

That's sad to hear.
I was afraid of getting my ute broken into as well.
I got a good alarm that comes with microwave sensors.
I used the standard door switches for the front, and kept the microwave sensors to install into the back, and had knock/glass breakage sensors installed.
Alarms don't help much if you don't hear them, but mines really loud and I'm never too far away from the ute.
That is unless I'm out for a drink I guess, but my neighbours either like me enough to look out for it, or hate me enough to check up on the noise for something to complain about

[Grizzly]

Paul
As I believe you guys say? BEAUT!
Grizzly

[richardb14]

hi mate, I could give you lots of advice, first thing is GLADIATOR insurance is your best friend, you can get your van insurance and public liability from them.

http://www.gladiator.co.uk/

secondly you need to think about this carefully, what is it about your business that makes you better or make people want to change?

keep your overheads to as near as nothing as possible, it would be nice to have a good van to go about in but realistically get yourself something to do you two to three years. you will also work from home - DONT go overboard on the advertising, yell.com brought me one customer and i had the sponsored link

yellow pages brings you a multitude of domestic calls, and not a lot else. best way of advertising is word of mouth, you also need to go walkabout and introduce yourself to people.
the best solution for starting up is get yourself some good sub-contract work, depending on what you are looking for, but bear in mind most of these companies work on 90 day accounts so be prepared to wait a while for your money, you will also find you spend countless hours chasing money.


so why should people use you?

[freezy]

Hi mate


I've been self employed for a few years.

I will be getting deposits upfront for any large work carried out to cover the cost of equipment/materials. Some people don't like doing this, but why should we be taking all the risk??

You'll be doing well to get money up front. It's normally 2 or 3 months down the line, after countless phone calls and getting totally wound up by it.

I thought I was mild mannered but you wouldn't beleive the rage that rises up inside when someone shirks paying you...... arrrrgh.

All the best

[andy c]

Hi Rick,
I've been trading for 3years now, and the best thing I did was get a good accountant, It will pay dividends in the long term, because he will advise you best on paying your taxes and so on. I run sage program for my books, and it is really good once you get your head around it, and your accountant is there to help when you get stuck. The tax man will want to get his grubby little hands on as much of your money as he can.
On the other side of it, you really could do with trying to get a few regular customers on board who already know you, and doing subby work for a year or so will help. I did an £18K job before christmas and still waiting for payment, so be mindful of what jobs you take on. Oh, and by the way, don't be nicking any of my customers, cos you're on my patch!!!!!!!!(lol). Good Luck. Regards, Andy C.

[monkey spanners]

Iv'e found NFU good for insurance.
If you are doing work for private customers or small shops, pubs, restaurants etc then bill them on site. They are a pain in the ar*e to chase up if they don't pay. I've just had one return their bill claiming to have moved. I am thinking of making vouchers to give to friends so they can go and eat there for free and get the money out of them that way.
Make sure you are getting good prices from your wholesalers, shop around. My old boss quoted on a 7.5 hp scroll replacement once and another company quoted the whole job cheaper than we were buying the compressor for!!!Get a few accounts with different wholealers so if you are on stop at one you can still trade. Its no good not being able to do any new work because one customer is a few weeks late on paying you.
If you have a warranty issue with some equipment you have bought and fitted, get it sorted before paying for it. It helps give you supplier some enthusiasm for sorting it out, otherwise they may give you a credit note which is no good if you don't buy anything for a few months or so.
It can be handy to know a few other companies who will give you work when you are quiet. I'm not too fussed what i'm doing so long as i'm payed so i could be labouring for a sparky company i know, helping out a builder mate of mine or working at one of the colleges in oxford in thier works department if i'm short of work. Its not ideal, but it pays the bills.


Jon

[paul_h]

Hi mate


I've been self employed for a few years.



You'll be doing well to get money up front. It's normally 2 or 3 months down the line, after countless phone calls and getting totally wound up by it.

I thought I was mild mannered but you wouldn't beleive the rage that rises up inside when someone shirks paying you...... arrrrgh.

All the best

One of the best parts of doing domestic is being paid in cash or cheque on the day.
That's about the only positive part of it though.
The only two occasions that I didn't get paid on the day (landlords not present at the tenants house) have given my the run around, but paid after two weeks or so.
The big company I worked 5 years for always demanded payment on the day for small jobs under $1k, most people are used to it here.

[SUBCONTRACTOR]

Hey All,

I've taken the plunge and decided to go self employed. I am currently in the process of getting all the paperwork sorted out, wow there is alot to do!

So far I've designed all my invoices, quotes, job sheets, service sheets, time sheets, business cards, letter headed paper amongst a few other things.

On the legal side, I've got my refrigerant record log sorted, COSHH data sheets, F Gas Record sheets, TREM cards...

Is there anything else I've missed off the list? I want to make sure everything is squeeky clean before I even go and do my first job. I want to start as I mean to go on with all the required paperwork.

Also, has anyone got any good insurance companies they can recommened. I've had a few quotes already but would like a few more first before I go ahead.

Same goes for Van insurance if possible

Think thats about enough for one post. If anyone has got any good advice, id really appreciate it!

Thanks

Rick

You are getting ready for a storm but it will just be a light drizzle.

[eurocooling]

Hey All,

I've taken the plunge and decided to go self employed. I am currently in the process of getting all the paperwork sorted out, wow there is alot to do!

So far I've designed all my invoices, quotes, job sheets, service sheets, time sheets, business cards, letter headed paper amongst a few other things.

On the legal side, I've got my refrigerant record log sorted, COSHH data sheets, F Gas Record sheets, TREM cards...

Is there anything else I've missed off the list? I want to make sure everything is squeeky clean before I even go and do my first job. I want to start as I mean to go on with all the required paperwork.

Also, has anyone got any good insurance companies they can recommened. I've had a few quotes already but would like a few more first before I go ahead.

Same goes for Van insurance if possible

Think thats about enough for one post. If anyone has got any good advice, id really appreciate it!

Thanks

Rick

Hi

Do the little jobs in and out plus you get you money quicker stick with local work if you can, I work for my self for a few years with 1800 people lots of out goings Regards J

[Abe]

This is my advice

Payment: Dont flinch, Work out an appropriate hourly rate that reflects your skill, worth, experience, and stick to it

When doing a job, dont wait till end to get paid, if the job extends over a period, get remunerated periodically

[taz24]

Hi Rick.

Good luck with the new buissness.

Try the Pearl for insurance. When I went on my own the were good for me and good price.

taz.

[Radlam]

Thanks so much for everyones comments, I have taken them all on board!

Its great to come to a community like this and receive such valuable advice from members

Im going to ring round the insurers again on monday and will check with the ones mentioned. Fingers crossed 1 of them gives me a good price!!

I have also decided to use my personal Mondeo estate for the time being as I dont want to finance/lease a commercial vehicle until I have decent cash flow...

Plus from looking at some of the vans out there, I reckon i can squeeze more in the boot of the trusty 03 plate mondy

Thanks again to everyone who inputted

Rick

[The Viking]

Careful with that old car.

Those Mondeos are dangerous!

The way they attract trees are something else. We used to have a lovely Mondeo, until a big willow got attracted to it and wrote it off.
(It almost looked like if it had been rolled after the willow had smashed the roof in)

[norfolkboy]

hi radlam,
i am insured through trade direct now, their service seems ok but touch wood i have not had a claim, their phone no is 01483 521650
Otherwise good luck but be prepeared to wait for your money, and accept that sooner or later someone will not pay you, its the way it is, its averaging out a grand a year for me it can hurt when it happens but its not personal.

[RONB]

Hi Radlam

Just another bit of advice you must be prepared for the lean times. Like from early December to almost late January when things always go a bit slack. It is worth putting a bit of cash by during the year to see you through. Also make sure you have a decent personal accident/sickness cover it may cost a few extra quid a month. It is worth the expence if anything happend and you could not work. It"s not all negatives though I have been by my self for a few years now and it is the best thing I have ever done. Good luck !

[old gas bottle]

some good advise for you there,i would add.

get a good accountant,small set up but ask if they are upto date with small company matters.

go ltd as soon as possible for protection and better tax benifits.

i would try and stretch to a new ex demo little fiat doblo or similar [1.3 TD] for a good image,there only 6.5 k new.

try and get as much work lined up as you can before taking the plunge.

if you open a bussiness account at the bank they may do the insurance,ours does. HSBC.

keep all your tickets upto date for insurance purposes.


and just work hard,spend a little for the first year or so,get stressed out and end up like us lot.

[eggs]

I don't mean to sound despondant, but i have had my worst year in 9 years of trading.

Good Luck

eggs

Then this morning purchase orders turn up for everthing i have quoted for in the last six months.

Help a new tax year has begun, i off fitting some fridges and splits

eggs

[IceMan08]

On the legal side, I've got my refrigerant record log sorted, COSHH data sheets, F Gas Record sheets, TREM cards...

Hello all, Im also starting up my own business, in the early stages yet! would just like to know where I can get the above documents from? any help would be gratefully received!!!thanx guys

be cool!

[Radlam]

Another question for you all,

Has anyone got a contact who can print my NCR pads for invoices, commission sheets, job sheets etc?

[Radlam]

Im just in the process of drawing up some maintenance contracts.

I have finished mine, but was wondering how people work theirs?

Do you do as I have done and give a couple of options, ie the main one which conforms to the F-Gas regs plus filter clean, performance check etc.

And then ontop of that I have offered interim maintenance visits charges at £X per unit.

I felt this was the best way of doing it so the customer can decide, with my help, how often they should have their systems maintained by me.

I didn't want to just give them 1 quote for a 12 month period and then have to go and clean their filters whenever they ring me. Surely no one operates like this do they? Some sites I work on in pubs/clubs need their filters doing every 3 months at least due to all the fur they gather! It just wouldnt be cost effective to offer a reasonably priced 12 month all inc pacakge to them. I think it would scare them off!!

[bebad]

Not local so can't help much, but I did start my own business.
For insurance get public liablity, vehicle and trade tools coverage.
Many insurers offer it as a package here, as "tradesmans insurance".

Insuring the tools and equipment in your van is a must if they get stolen or damaged in a crash, normal vehical insurance doesn't cover them or charges way more than the public liablity insurers charge. You can;t work without tools, you may not be able to afford replacing them out of your own pocket in a few months from now.

I started my business 2 months ago, all from my own savings. I'm happy to hear that's your plan too.
I would have been screwed if I borrowed money for my van, tools etc. But I'm earning enough to pay my living costs so I'm happy.

Customers are hard to find, so I'm only getting 20hrs a week, but I admit I haven't tried too hard.
I don't want to get too big too quick or work on things I'm not really confident to touch.
Right now I'm doing mainly splits and ducted, as I know what I'm doing, and have not had any callbacks of the bad kind, so I must be doing something right.
I've got to say though, I left and started my own business in dealing with split systems because I realised only a handfull of people in my city knew more than me, most people in the trade didn't have a clue, and so for that's not egotistical since the custmers are saying the same things.
I started the business because I had a niche and lots of knowledge compared to the competition. Just make sure that you think you were the most qualified person in your company before you take the plunge. An average tech starting their own business has nothing offer against the more established businesses with advertising budgets, more staff, more industry contacts etc

that is one of the most sensible comments i've heard on this site so far. well said. #;~)

[frank]

that is one of the most sensible comments i've heard on this site so far. well said. #;~)

Nice to know that the forum has narrowed the gap between the continents.

[IceMan08]

hi all,Im a little bit behind some of you guys, I understand that refrigerant logs need to be kept - are these to be kept on site and a copy at home?
also what is the difference between the f-gas log and the refrigerant log???
Also could someone explain how I get a TREMcard? when I googled it, it was software?? if so is this available from anywhere else free??? questions,questions,questions!
your helps appreciated guys!

[freezy]

Hi IceMan 08

Refrigerant logs should always be kept at home by all engineers.....It's the Law!

F-gas logs burn better than refrigerant logs due to their saturated combustion temperature.

TREM cards are available from your local bank. If they don't have any , just use a standard VISA......they work just as well.

Hope this helps

Freezy

[IceMan08]

Hi IceMan 08

Refrigerant logs should always be kept at home by all engineers.....It's the Law!

F-gas logs burn better than refrigerant logs due to their saturated combustion temperature.

TREM cards are available from your local bank. If they don't have any , just use a standard VISA......they work just as well.

Hope this helps

Freezy

Hey Freezy,
do these Logs have standard sheets for this or do we 'make' our own on, say, excel?

LMAO about the logs!

As for Trem cards- my local bank?!?