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Thread: Flares .....?

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    Flares .....?



    .

    Cooper flare joints have been used in small units of all types for decades. They are easily constructed and dismantled in the field, but so are other types of mechanical fittings.

    But why did the small commercial and domestic refrigeration and air conditioner industry adopt on this type of joint in the first place in preference to other types of joint?

    My own theory, for what itís worth, is that the small refrigerator industry, extending from small commercial devices into homes as domestic fridges originated in the US during the 1920ís, dominated, it would seem, by a number of large manufacturers, prominently Frigidaire.
    Prior to the use of CFC in the early 30s the main refrigerants in use were Ammonia and Sulphur Dioxide. The former had to use steel pipes, the latter could use copper.
    Frigidaire was instrumental, with DuPont, in developing CFCs commercially for refrigerant use and was, I believe, at the time a division of General Motors.

    Did the flare type joint stray into refrigeration territory from the motor car industry, where a similar joint was used in hydraulic and brake systems?

    Has anybody got any ideas?


    .



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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argus View Post
    .

    Cooper flare joints have been used in small units of all types for decades. They are easily constructed and dismantled in the field, but so are other types of mechanical fittings.

    But why did the small commercial and domestic refrigeration and air conditioner industry adopt on this type of joint in the first place in preference to other types of joint?

    My own theory, for what itís worth, is that the small refrigerator industry, extending from small commercial devices into homes as domestic fridges originated in the US during the 1920ís, dominated, it would seem, by a number of large manufacturers, prominently Frigidaire.
    Prior to the use of CFC in the early 30s the main refrigerants in use were Ammonia and Sulphur Dioxide. The former had to use steel pipes, the latter could use copper.
    Frigidaire was instrumental, with DuPont, in developing CFCs commercially for refrigerant use and was, I believe, at the time a division of General Motors.

    Did the flare type joint stray into refrigeration territory from the motor car industry, where a similar joint was used in hydraulic and brake systems?

    Has anybody got any ideas?


    .
    I've never thought of it before.
    But your account is very plausable.

    Cheers taz.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Argus.
    I agree with Taz. I would also add that a taper faced ( flare joint ) makes absolute sence. As it's the simplest Joint to make, given the pressures involved.
    And given that we are talking about 70 to 80 yrs ago. The portable hydrolic equipment and other innovative joints were yet to be invented. Plus it would of been a bitch brazing with a pumped up paraffin torch. ( remember them the nearest thing to a flame thrower, I ever got hold of when I were a lad!)
    As I said, I can't nor would want to. Dispute your
    reasoning. We have a lot to thank the Americans for not least maintaining Imperial measurements. Even if it is there version of some measurements.
    Hopefully someone will have a more astute answer for you?
    Meanwhile I must ask where in the United Nations do you live?
    Cheers Grizzly.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Hi Argus,

    Your logic in detailing the originating source of the flared connections appears to be spot on. That would have been my guess. When the "*****s" were being developed, Frigidaire was owned by General Motors.

    I think it's also interesting to note that two types of flare nuts were made (long shank and short shank). The long shank version provided more support for the tubing at the flare, than the short shank versions which seem to be so popular here in the US.

    What is the common type everyone uses?

    In my later service years I made the switch to using hydraulic fittings and tubing, instead of flares and copper tubing. This resulted in complete reduction of problem leaks and call backs due to flared connection issues.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    Hi Argus,



    In my later service years I made the switch to using hydraulic fittings and tubing, instead of flares and copper tubing. This resulted in complete reduction of problem leaks and call backs due to flared connection issues.
    Just for information sake!
    I personally have mounted about 2000 split systems air conditioners. That is 8000 flaring joints. Very little (maybe 10-15) units have got leak problem in warranty period (2 years) and beyond. I know that because I servicing them regularly. I don't consider flared connection more problematic then brazed joints when they are maid correctly. Right tools and attention to details makes that happened.
    A also have some 15 years old split systems with flare joints on which I never connected pressure gauges and they are working now as at first day.

    Also, I think that they are not good solution where they are exposed to vibrations.
    Now, when I am officialy citizen off EU, I am looking for decent job! For any job offer please check my profile!

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    Hi Argus,


    I think it's also interesting to note that two types of flare nuts were made (long shank and short shank). The long shank version provided more support for the tubing at the flare, than the short shank versions which seem to be so popular here in the US.

    What is the common type everyone uses?
    .
    I was always told and from experience upto the 90's that long shank flares were not to be used in freezers and around TEV because of ice expansion spliting the nuts.

    Noadays with metric fittings and brazed joints the flare nuts seem to be made from the smallest amout of brass imaginable.

    Cheers taz.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24
    I was always told and from experience up to the 90's that long shank flares were not to be used in freezers and around TEV because of ice expansion splitting the nuts.
    Now that's a valid point. I had forgotten that.

    The biggest problem with flare nuts on TXV's I have seen is they want to loosen up after some period of use. So this makes a pretty good case for using LeakLock on the flares on a TXV.

    Nike123 brings up a good point about vibration also. This problem generally centers around the compressor(s) so the long shank flare nuts can provide more support for the flared connection tube. I also agree with his comments concerning the low rate of leaks if the flares are made correctly.

    I have seen similar results with very low flare problems too, but any leak that can be prevented is a good thing. This is why I started to use the hydraulic fittings to achieve a zero leak rate on connections. The fittings and hydraulic tubing cost more, but the results were excellent.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    This is why I started to use the hydraulic fittings to achieve a zero leak rate on connections. The fittings and hydraulic tubing cost more, but the results were excellent.
    Hi US Iceman,
    Do you have any internet link to that hydraulic fittings you are referring to?

    Nike
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    Re: Flares .....?

    .


    Thanks for the replies.

    I have managed to find out that the suffix ĎSAEí often found with flare measurement when describing the angle of the flare is ĎSociety of Automotive Engineersí.

    Apart from the origins, we seem to have identified a number of vulnerabilities where flare connections are concerned.

    Whatís the advantages?

    1. Well established Ė in use for decades.
    2. Low level of skill needed.
    3. Convenient Ė time consuming, but does not involve bulky equipment.
    4. No burning involved - therefore no need for permits to work where hot-work permits are required.


    Consider the disadvantages:


    1. Strength Ė the immediate area of the seat of the joint and the rear where the anchor nut connects is weak due to stress in the deformed pipe.
    2. Ice Ė present in many evaporators, flares and flare nuts are vulnerable to ice distortion. For this reason they are banned on TX valves and discouraged elsewhere in some standards, typically the European refrigeration safety standard that Iím familiar with.
    3. Itís a permanent joint. Despite many opinions to the contrary, flares are never intended to be dismantled and re-tightened for routine service items such as driers. Good practice states that they are made and assembled once only. The reason is that the seat of the joint is copper pipe deformed to fit the face of the flare connector. Assuming that it has not been over-tightened when is made in the flare block; the copper seat is subjected to a work hardening process twice. Once in the block, then again when the joint is tightened up.


    Whoís using Flares?

    With regard to TXVs, the European Safety Standard (EN 3778) prohibits the use of flares in this position and discourages their use elsewhere if there is an alternative Ė to my way of thinking, thatís anywhere that ice can form. I have seen both long and short-shank flare nuts crack from top to bottom. In the 60ís there were long-shank flare nuts available with a series of holes, about 3 mm diameter drilled around the neck of the nut to prevent freeze-cracking.

    For example, Holland has ruled against flares Ė canít use them at all. Itís not the mechanical joint they rule out Ė itís the act of using a piece of work-hardened, distorted pipe as the basis of the seat. They substitute an alternative fitting, and I've put in a picture below. The copper ring is renewed each time it is dismantled.

    In the UK, at least one very large supermarket that I know of has a clause in their supply contract that prohibits flares.

    The point with flared pipe connections is that they have been in use for so long, that it is almost impossible to change to anything else, even though the fact that they are a high risk source of leaks is well known.

    .
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argus
    In the 60ís there were long-shank flare nuts available with a series of holes, about 3 mm diameter drilled around the neck of the nut to prevent freeze-cracking.
    Frost-proof flare nuts. I have not thought about those in a long time. This thread is bringing back a lot of old memories I have not used in a long time.
    Last edited by US Iceman; 28-01-2008 at 06:08 PM. Reason: editing
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by nike123
    Do you have any internet link to that hydraulic fittings you are referring to?
    Here is a link to the fittings I used. Without exception, I used these on the compressor locations since this is where the greatest vibration level was found. I can say I never experienced a leak associated with the use of these fittings.

    http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_...0000212/type-1

    Kudos to Argus posting this topic. It is one that is often overlooked as a simple joint connection which has a huge ramification in our industry.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: Flares .....?

    .

    Hi, Iceman,

    I've not seen these connectors. Generally, we are very conservative and reluctant to change when it comes to new products in this country.

    Are they flexible hoses? Do they connect to a conventional flare?

    Thanks for the complement. It all started when I began compiling a risk assessment based on the 'leakability' of the usual types of joints that we find in the field.
    I'm doing this as part of a training programme connected to the new regulations we have here that have just come in to law that states that all systems must be checked regularly for leaks.

    What the regulation actually says is, that parts of a system' that are most likely to leak' must be checked.
    So, how do you work that out? Obviously an assessment of the installation.

    Top of the list in terms of reliability are brazed and welded pipes with a certificate of testing.
    Bottom of the list? shaft seals, flares, driers and Schrader valves.

    Given a bit of thought, flares were slipping down the league table in terms of reliability, because it is so inherently weak.

    Frankly, I wouldnít be sorry to se the back of them - Schrader valves too, while we are about it.


    .

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    Re: Flares .....?

    This is video of how they are fitted:
    http://www.swagelok.com/FittingInstallVideo.htm
    Now, when I am officialy citizen off EU, I am looking for decent job! For any job offer please check my profile!

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    Re: Flares .....?

    If anyone chooses to investigate the use of these fittings there are some caveats to be aware of.

    1. Cost - they are not cheap, but you should never have to replace them
    2. The ferrules and fittings are selected for the specific type of tubing being used. As noted in the video link nike123 posted you do not want to mix and match pieces from different manufacturers or for different tubing materials.
    3. These are the same type of fittings used in industrial applications (screw compressors hydraulics) so they are noted for very good results.
    4. As with any type of tubing installation, you want to pay particular attention to the tube mounting to prevent abrasion and vibration damage.
    5. You can use the same lever type tubing bender for the hydraulic tubing also to make your installation very neat!
    6. By virtue of their construction the estimated operating pressure capability of these fittings is significantly higher than brass fittings, which may be important for those working with R-410.
    Argus, I concur with you thoughts. We as an industry need to do a better job at policing ourselves for better methods, rather than propagating past methods as reasonable practice. Waiting until a new regulation becomes law is tantamount to sticking our heads in the sand hoping "it" will go away.

    Not very proactive in my opinion. So, if you are doing risk assessments I would include a brazing qualification also. I'm not sure what you have there, but I feel brazing is one of those "arts" that are sometimes construed to mean "the pipe stuck together, so I'm OK".
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: Flares .....?

    I've been thinking about using these

    http://www.pipelagging.com/armacell-...ings-c-53.html

    Theres more info on the armaflex site but i could not make the link work saw them at the rac show and was impressed but no one seems to sell them, might phone armacell tomorrow.

    Jon

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by nike123 View Post
    This is video of how they are fitted:
    http://www.swagelok.com/FittingInstallVideo.htm
    So they're just a cone fitting?
    Plumbers have been using them for ages, I've even used them to redo my gas oven connections.

    I don't have leaks through any properly deburred flares, the only problems with flares is poor deburring and overtightening. Like nike123, I regularly service split a/cs more than 10 years old that has flare joins that have never leaked

    Surprised you are all using the memory time machine to remember frost proof flare nuts, still widely used here. We have 'short barrel', and 'long barrel'. The long barrel nuts have holes drilled through them to stop them cracking due to ice expansion.

    As far as the join most likely to leak, I nominate "rota lock" joins used on compressors and recievers. They alway leak due to vibration.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by paul_h View Post
    As far as the join most likely to leak, I nominate "rota lock" joins used on compressors and recievers. They alway leak due to vibration.
    Every one of them leaking all the time! I never, ever, found that Rotalock don't leak! (at least, with electronic leak detector).
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    Re: Flares .....?

    i seem to remember copeland scroll compressors leaking like sieves but we used stag on the nuts to stop them working loose with vibration when you get five compressors in the old enviropacks you made sure they didnt leak as most of these were on supermarket rooftops and humping bottles of gas up a vertical ladder at 02.00 in the morning was no joke

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    Re: Flares .....?

    think its worth a mension that the quality and wall thickness of the copper nowdays means that flares are more at risk than before and also the higher working pressures and new refrigerants find weaknesses far more easily, of course better flaring tools like the concentric type have helped loads. short and long flare nuts,that takes you back.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    I thought they made copper thicker these days to cope with r410a?
    At least that's what I've been told, ie you can't use existing copper from an old r22 installation, because it's thinner and not r410a rated, you have to replace the piping with new copper.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    wrong!, we fit mitsibushi replacement technoligy, use existing pipework if in good condition ,the system has a scrubing system to clean all the old oil and crap out, thats one example, i suspect higher testing may be order of the day but i see a lot of failed new systems where the condenser has split before taking the HP switch out when its been set a bit to high.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Oh, You mean the copper inside the units? I was talking about the copper you buy from wholesalers which is r410a rated (thicker).
    The copper quality inside the units will vary as the manufacturer tried to cut costs.
    It's extremely rare to get a leak on a fuji unit, and when there is, it's often a weld.
    But one domestic fridge manufacturer had a lot of copper split problems because they were getting bad cheap copper.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    paul, i mean the existing pipe runs can be reused from R22 to R410, if they stand the pressure test and are in good condition then you just put your new outdoor and indoor on the ends, i,am interested in other peoples input because i cant see the quality of anything going up only down, i agree the new copper [and whatever else is in it] must be tested to withstand higher operating pressures, i ,am pretty sure the older copper would have passed the current tests and maybe more so.

    must admit i prefer brazing as much as possible,that way if the pressure test holds theres less chance of future leaks, thats of course as iceman says the engineer can braze.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Wether we can braze or not will be irrelivant soon. Because if you read carefully the recent posts regarding "F Gas" regs. The general perseption from our trainers (UK) is that we, all engineers will have to
    attend a brazing course / assesment.
    So ability will be assesed!
    This is a brilliant post. Although I have no problem with flared joints. I would be more than happy to have to comply with the mandatory use of an alternative joint.
    Argus.
    You in my opinion point out a far far worse culprit.
    Shaft Seals how many people are taught that if a open drive Compressor is left turned off for any length of time. The viscous Seal dries out.(Oil between the 2 highly polished faces of the rotor and stator). From my experiance we allways advise site staff or if relevant the BMS Controls Engineer to rotate weekly Compressors to minimise the chances of a shaft seal drying out.
    I have seen many systems that are maybe 20 to 30 yrs old that have rarely ever lost refrigerant from a leaking flare joint. But they have lost huge amounts because site staff decide to shut down a circuit for any length of time.
    Shaft Seals are a real pain. But as far as I know there is as yet no real altenative apart from were possible using hermetic comps and pumps. The pumps are not such a problem, whereas compressor size regarding hermetic is!
    Also untill recently I would arrive on site to work on refrigeration equipment and be accompanied by a site engineer. These guys usually knew their plant inside out and were the first line of defence against all leaks breakdowns etc.
    Nowadays there are few sites that have Engineers available to assist or accompany you and all to often you are left to get on with it.
    Leaks from a plant are more likely to go unnoticed for long periods nowadays than ever before.
    Reason being Multi tasking Engineers (less needed save money ) So it's about time we started blaming Accountants for Global Warming.
    Grizzly
    Last edited by Grizzly; 30-01-2008 at 07:33 PM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Hey Grizzly,

    Now I think you are getting into the area frequently called "fugitive emissions". These are areas in the system where leaks are somewhat a fact of life, but we should find a way to mitigate as much as possible.

    Valve stem seals are another. Most ammonia valves typically are installed with just hand wheels. On the other hand though, valves are available with seal caps.

    Should we write procedures to have the valves with hand wheels "exercised" (manually opened and closed) on a regular basis to keep the valve stem and packing in good shape, or, just let it go?

    Or, should we be using seal caps on all valves except those which require regular use for operational considerations?

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    Re: Flares .....?

    I just remembered another questionable area for fugitive emissions. Purgers on refrigeration systems.

    These do loose some refrigerant over a period of time, so if we say after 5 years some refrigerant has to be added, how do we tell the regulators where the refrigerant went, and that it is not a leak (for which they cannot fine you!).

    While Argus started this thread concerning flares, I think the main issue resulting from this discussion is how to evaluate the different areas within a refrigeration system for leaks based on risk.
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:12 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    grizzley, we have to have a brazing ticket all ready and a electrical one over here, you can operate with just a refrigerant handling but if you had a accident or fire you would be in deep poo, just heard today that it may be back to school to get a MVQ2 qualification asswell.

    ages since i have had a school diner,39 years
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:12 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    oooooop,s missed the somerset bit
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:12 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by old gas bottle View Post
    grizzley, we have to have a brazing ticket all ready and a electrical one over here, you can operate with just a refrigerant handling but if you had a accident or fire you would be in deep poo, just heard today that it may be back to school to get a MVQ2 qualification asswell.

    ages since i have had a school diner,39 years
    OGB.
    OBVIOUSLY our pallettes need retraining 37 yrs for me. Which "Tickets" in particular are you refering to?
    Wether we can braze or not will be irrelivant soon. Because if you read carefully the recent posts regarding "F Gas" regs. The general perseption from our trainers (UK) is that we, all engineers will have to
    attend a brazing course / assesment.
    Above is my referance to the same articles we have all been reading. As previously posted many of our trainers are stateing the above. Which by the way may be a 3yr renewable "ticket"
    Grizzly
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:12 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    Hey Grizzly,

    Now I think you are getting into the area frequently called "fugitive emissions". These are areas in the system where leaks are somewhat a fact of life, but we should find a way to mitigate as much as possible.

    Valve stem seals are another. Most ammonia valves typically are installed with just hand wheels. On the other hand though, valves are available with seal caps.

    Should we write procedures to have the valves with hand wheels "exercised" (manually opened and closed) on a regular basis to keep the valve stem and packing in good shape, or, just let it go?

    Or, should we be using seal caps on all valves except those which require regular use for operational considerations?

    Isn't this fun??
    US Iceman.
    Fugitive emissions A good term new to me but has possibilities!

    While Argus started this thread concerning flares, I think the main issue resulting from this discussion is how to evaluate the different areas within a refrigeration system for leaks based on risk.
    Argus did not state a preferance, as we have strayed somwhat. But the point I would like to make is, following on from what you are saying is! ALL Engineers seem to be fully aware of the short cummings of flare joints. So logically, surely points you make. Re fugitive emmisions are more important than the humble flare joint.
    Or is that the very point you are making?
    thanks Grizzly
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:12 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    grizzly.we have CITB gas handling,brazing[part 1 upto 11/8] and basic electrics, even this is bare minimum nowdays,had theese nearly three years and there about ready for renewal, booked in on C/Guilds this time as it covers "F" gas and legal requirements for us. we all new it was comming and dont want to do it but needs must i suppose, better dig my counting beads out.
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:13 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by old gas bottle View Post
    grizzly.we have CITB gas handling,brazing[part 1 upto 11/8] and basic electrics, even this is bare minimum nowdays,had theese nearly three years and there about ready for renewal, booked in on C/Guilds this time as it covers "F" gas and legal requirements for us. we all new it was comming and dont want to do it but needs must i suppose, better dig my counting beads out.
    OGB
    Thanks for the clarification.
    I am ahead of you on the C&G rather than CITB wherever possible ,for the same reason as you.
    It's a difficult subject to accept (Ticket Renewal) when you have been doing the job longer than most of the instructors. But either way we are going to have to comply. When some of the engineering standards we come across are so appaling it's difficult not to justify retraining.
    And I suppose because it's difficult to single people out. Us all having to do it again makes sence.
    No matter how much us old timers may dislike it!
    Grizzly
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:13 AM.

  33. #33
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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly
    Re fugitive emissions are more important than the humble flare joint.
    Or is that the very point you are making?
    Sort of. While Argus started this thread based on flared connections, I think his premise for doing so was based on using a risk assessment of potential leak paths within a refrigeration system.

    I merely sought to expand on his thought process by providing alternative methods or other areas for future investigation or thought.

    There are a lot of potential leak paths we often take for granted, therefore my thoughts are: can we be proactive in addressing these, before someone legal beagle decides to make laws that might be less than desirable from our perspective?
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:13 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    There are a lot of potential leak paths we often take for granted, therefore my thoughts are: can we be proactive in addressing these, before someone legal beagle decides to make laws that might be less than desirable from our perspective?
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    US Iceman.
    Very Very good point sadly I fear as far as UK is concerned it would appear we have lost that one.
    To of been part of the process would of been good. He ho! stay tuned all will be revealed. Eventually.
    Back to the theme.
    Flares are good how we treat them may not be.
    Grizzly
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:13 AM.

  35. #35
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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post

    .... can we be proactive in addressing these, before someone legal beagle decides to make laws that might be less than desirable from our perspective?
    I believe that we can.

    The situation envisaged here by USIceman already exists.

    All systems containing over 3 kg Fluorinated refrigerants must now be checked for leaks on a regular basis by law and a log book of results kept.
    I've always maintained that this is not particularly onerous for the owner or the engineers doing it (who are being paid for the privilege, after all).
    The actual checks amount to nothing more than best practice in my opinion.

    We know that there are fugitive leaks. Reality says that we keep these to the absolute minimum.
    This returns us to the question of why the industry still keeps to the old fashioned flare that has a high risk leak factor compounded by its inherent weakness and tendency to deteriorate with repeated disassembly and retightening.

    Manufacturers stating that they cannot change their fabrication processes to eliminate the flare has been disproved here in the UK. One of the biggest purchasers in the country banned the use of mechanical joints of all type some years ago for new equipment suppliers, not just flares.

    Faced with the certainty of no market at all with this very big player, global manufacturers are falling over backwards to provide a special range of units with no mechanical joints for them - all brazed.

    .
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:13 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    "But why did the small commercial and domestic refrigeration and air conditioner industry adopt on this type of joint in the first place in preference to other types of joint"?

    Well the domestic side didn't. As a Frigidaire apprentice I can tell you that we used the ' mech joint' on domestic gear. This was basically a compression fitting, but worked well.

    Argus, you are right in your assumption. Frigidaire was indeed a division of the giant US General Motors as indeed Prestcold was allied to PSC (Pressed Steel Company) who just happened to manufacture Morris motor cars in the UK. So your theory about the flaring of copper pipes almost certainly has it's origins in the automobile industry

    Altogether an interesting thread... The long/short barrel stuff was all about flare nuts attached to a TEX for (hopefully) obvious reasons.

    Someone mentioned flaring as being a low priority skill ... not true, it is a skill honed and developed over years. After a thousand or so you will always thereafter get it right. There is nothing (still) wrong with the flare as long as it is made properly.

    Trevor
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:23 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Quote Originally Posted by old gas bottle View Post
    paul, i mean the existing pipe runs can be reused from R22 to R410, if they stand the pressure test and are in good condition then you just put your new outdoor and indoor on the ends, i,am interested in other peoples input because i cant see the quality of anything going up only down, i agree the new copper [and whatever else is in it] must be tested to withstand higher operating pressures, i ,am pretty sure the older copper would have passed the current tests and maybe more so.

    must admit i prefer brazing as much as possible,that way if the pressure test holds theres less chance of future leaks, thats of course as iceman says the engineer can braze.

    I'll only reuse up to 1/2" from R22 to R410a.

    The wall thickness should be the same as the new 410 tube up to the 1/2" dia.

    As long as it's seamless copper tube it should be suitable 4 R410a.


    ant input??

    -Dogma_
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:23 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    I now days steer away from flares (I've never had truble making them solid) even schrader valves, I now opt for a proces tube type system that is 100% hermeticaly sealed.

    If you need to do any thing on the gas side there is some serious work involved and I hope it forces the guy to seriously think about breaking into the system (In other words fix the real problem)!

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    Re: Flares .....?

    How do you access the system when there is a system fault??


    Do you leave service tails on so you can break in with bullet piercing tools??


    I can't remember the standard here in Australia but I think there has to be 2 service points with a minimum of 100mm 1/4" tails... after opening a system you must leave a 100mm access point.


    Correct me if I'm wrong fellow aussies. I'll get back to this thread after I ask my guru friend which AS/NZS Standard refers to this.
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:24 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    I leave extra for a person to cut then rebraze, but I make it a royal pita for them to do as it is the last option, 80% of fualts will be electrical or mechanical out side of the compressor and gas charge.

    So to avoid people messing with the gas side of it, make it hard so that they concintrate on the real issues that and reliability goes to the roof!

    (FYI My niche is making small water cooled commercial kitchen fridges so far)
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:24 AM.

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    Re: Flares .....?

    Perhaps a small add: according to EN378, we may not longer make flares on tubes smaller than 9 m; So flaring 1/4 tubes is no longer allowed.
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:24 AM.

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