Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    28
    Rep Power
    0

    Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison



    All,

    Now I have received two quotations from two different suppliers for 100 HP Ammonia compressor. With in the quotation of the first supplier mentioning “that the his screw compressor is designed to provide 90.8 TR of refrigeration at 30 °F suction, and 90 °F discharge”. The second supplier mentioned his compressor is “100 HP screw compressor 74 Tons @ + 12 °F suction and 90 °F condensing”

    My questions:
    1-Are they comparing apple with apple?
    2-How can we compare and know with different suction temperatures?
    3-What does the change in suction temperatures effect?

    And is there some thing else I have to know? and is there any trick with that?

    Thanks in advance.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    malaysia
    Posts
    159
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison

    Hi power(N,6)!

    i feel they have not give you some in common ground to compare.

    if you wish to have better ideas, ask for their capacity chart. mostly it will be in +35degC condensing temp.

    high suction temp >> high input power.

    computation of motor power is also important because both may have very different factor uses.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,330
    Rep Power
    19

    Re: Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison

    Compressor performance quotes are tricky to read. You were wise to question this.

    Ask for the compressor performance to be quoted with the following:

    Evaporating pressure
    Suction line pressure loss
    Suction pressure & temperature

    Plus

    Discharge pressure
    Discharge line pressure loss
    Condensing temperature
    Amount of subcooling used

    Then

    Ask for the compressor displacement (CFM - the swept volume of the compressor at it's rated speed of rotation)

    And,

    Ask the vendors to provide the compressor capacity delivered and the power required at the operating conditions you specify.

    If the compressor CFM of the two compressors is fairly close and the quoted performance is similar (based on the same operating conditions specified above) then and only then can you try to understand what you are buying.

    NEVER, NEVER, just ask for a 100 HP compressor! That does not mean anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNNNNN
    ...the quotation of the first supplier mentioning “that the his screw compressor is designed to provide 90.8 TR of refrigeration at 30 °F suction, and 90 °F discharge”. The second supplier mentioned his compressor is “100 HP screw compressor 74 Tons @ + 12 °F suction and 90 °F condensing”
    What are your operating conditions??? Is it 30°F or 12°F? That is a big difference!

    Quote Originally Posted by NNNNNN
    Are they comparing apple with apple?
    NO! You have apples and oranges my friend.

    Let me guess...both quotes are from screw compressor salesmen, right?
    If all else fails, ask for help.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    28
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison

    Hi Iceman,

    We are operating at the time being at 26 psi suction pressure.

    Below is what I have got a reply from one of the suppliers (Dis not get any thing from the other):

    1- Capacity Chart? ............................ 90.8 TR
    2- Evaporating Pressure?....................... 30 degF
    3- Suction line pressure loss?................. 2.0 psi
    4- Suction pressure & temperature?............. 44.9 psig & 30degF
    5- Discharge pressure?......................... 165.5 psig
    6- Discharge pressure loss?.................... 5.0 psi
    7- Condensing temperature?...................... 90 psig
    8- Amount of subcooling used?................... 2.0 degF
    9- Compressor displacement (CFM - the swept volume of the compressor at it's rated speed of rotation)
    ....186.9 CFM @ 3550 RPM
    10-Compressor capacity delivered and the power required at the operation conditions? 90.8 TR using 93BHP
    = 1.02 HP/TR producing 82DBA
    11-Operating conditions? 30 degF & 90 degF

    Is that what I have to get or some thing else?

    Thanks.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,330
    Rep Power
    19

    Re: Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison

    Hi,

    Well, the first problem is the compressor is rated for a suction pressure higher than you are currently running. (26 psig is about a 12°F saturation temperature while the quote says the compressor is rated at about 45 psig, which is a saturation temperature of about 30°F).

    If the system runs at 26 psig, then the compressor should be rated at that condition.

    I will say the rating data you provided looks like a reasonably well stated set of rated operating conditions because they include pressure losses (suction & discharge). However, I question the subcooling. You do not typically get subcooling on a condenser in a properly operating condenser. By adding the subcooling this tends to artificially increase the rated compressor capacity. In all likelihood, you won't get that capacity if you were running at 45 psig suction.

    Without getting into a math exercise, the CFM you provided looks more like the gas volume flow at the rated condition. From a quick check I did, that's what it looks like instead of the compressor displacement. For now, I'm not going to worry about it.

    I did quickly check the performance for a recip. compressor at the 45 psig & 90° condensing temperature... the BHP/Ton for a recip at these conditions is: 0.92, which is about 10% better than the screw compressor.

    We are getting closer....
    If all else fails, ask for help.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    28
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison

    Hi Iceman,

    Below is the reply for the second supplier:

    "
    1- Capacity Chart? - to follow

    2- Evaporating Pressure? - Which evaporator are you asking about?

    3- Suction line pressure loss? – This is function of the system piping not the compressor however past tests have shown that there is less than .5 psig between the LPR and the compressor suction. – The balance of the evaporator coils require higher suction pressures. The line losses were designed for approx 2 psig pressure drop.

    4- Suction pressure & temperature? - Where are you asking about? The LPR should be around 25 to 26 Psig which would be 11 – 12 °F

    5- Discharge pressure? - This is controlled by the size and setting of the condenser. Normally if everything is working properly your peak condensing temperature would be 90F or 165 Psig. I will be higher on start-up and on extreme high humidity days.

    6- Discharge pressure loss? – The system was originally designed for 2°F pressure drop in the system discharge piping to the condenser.

    7- Condensing temperature? - Original design 90F

    8- Amount of subcooling used? – Subcooling is not used in the calculations of a system like this because typically there is none. Anything that appears from time to time under specific operating conditions is a bonus but cannot be counted on for system design.

    9- Compressor displacement (CFM - the swept volume of the compressor at it's rated speed of rotation)? - to follow

    10-Compressor capacity delivered and the power required at the operation conditions? - 74 Tons @12F SST, 90F SCT, and 98 BHP

    11-Operating conditions? - 74 Tons @12F SST, 90F SCT, and 98 BHP
    "

    What exactly that means?

    And Kindly I would ask you what does each mean?

    Thanks.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,330
    Rep Power
    19

    Re: Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison

    Oh Boy, here we go...

    These answers revel why the selection and rating of compressors is such a mess. All of those questions I asked originally pertain to how the compressor capacity is determined. The answers tell a lot!

    #4) You need to know the suction temperature and pressure because this helps to show the amount of suction superheat, which detracts from the compressor capacity. High suction superheat = bad.

    #5) The discharge pressure equals condensing pressure + the discharge line pressure loss. Asking for these helps to tell if the compressor rating is based on actual operating conditions or fictitious examples.

    #8) I agree with.

    Based on the two examples you provided, each are quoting a 100 HP screw compressor. However, both have quoted this under very different operating conditions.

    Based on these quotes, all you can expect to get is a compressor with 100 HP motor.

    What I was trying to show with this exercise was, you need to be very specific when you ask a question or for a quote. If not, you get all sorts of strange information back that may not mean anything.

    Apparently your system runs about 25 psig suction. OK, then why is the first guy quoting 45 psig?

    If the compressor CFM is similar between the two compressors and both have 100 HP motors, they should do about the same capacity at the SAME operating conditions.

    My guess here is... Your system is a lot like most others. It was designed to operate at 25 psig and use back-pressure regulators on any evaporator at a higher temperature. This is a nice cheap way to design systems that cost a lot of money to operate.

    Your last quote is probably closer to something that represents your actual operating conditions based on the information you have provided.

    However, this is such a complex subject I refer you to the above red highlighted text.

    I would also suggest you get a quote on a recip. compressor for comparison of cost and efficiency.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


  8. #8
    XJR1200's Avatar
    XJR1200 Guest

    Smile Re: Suction and Discharge Temperatures for Ammonia Compressor Comparison

    Interesting comments from all. To obtain a quotation for two similar compressors is not difficult, but the information from the suppliers needs to be interpreted correctly. Most Screw Compressor manufacturers have similar sized compressors. You will normally find that they all have a relativley similar COP, Swept Volume, Absorbed Power etc. However most manufacturers performance data is based on what is occurring at the compressor ports. They do not normally allow for system line loss unless specifically asked to do so. Just ensure your conditions for each option are the same to ensure an accurate comparison of performance data.

Similar Threads

  1. discharge superheat
    By philjd26 in forum Trouble Shooting
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-01-2008, 07:48 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-10-2006, 08:32 PM
  3. Interesting Problem
    By NH3LVR in forum Industrial Compressors
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-08-2006, 10:27 PM
  4. Bearing trouble - rotary compressor
    By rosetennis in forum Industrial Compressors
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 18-05-2006, 01:26 AM
  5. temperatures of the suction and discharge lines
    By VIXS in forum Air Conditioning
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 17-05-2006, 07:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •