Best Refrigerant for New Design

[Andreas11]

I am an re-designing an HVAC for a locomotive, a transportation application. We currently use R-134a, but I see that Copeland is recommending R-410a for the latest residential air conditioning applications. Both R-134a and R-410a have zero ozone depletion potential and I suspect R-410a fares better in GWP. Most of our units are in N America, but a few may go overseas.

We would like this HVAC to be out there about 10 years before another re-design. It is easier for me to stay with R-134a, but does anyone have a strong opinion on which refrigerant to use going into the future and why (R-134a or R-410a)? Do you know of advantages and disadvantages of each? I imagine I could use a smaller system with the R-410a for one.

- Thanks, Andreas

[taz24]

I am an re-designing an HVAC for a locomotive, a transportation application. We currently use R-134a, but I see that Copeland is recommending R-410a for the latest residential air conditioning applications. Both R-134a and R-410a have zero ozone depletion potential and I suspect R-410a fares better in GWP. Most of our units are in N America, but a few may go overseas.

We would like this HVAC to be out there about 10 years before another re-design. It is easier for me to stay with R-134a, but does anyone have a strong opinion on which refrigerant to use going into the future and why (R-134a or R-410a)? Do you know of advantages and disadvantages of each? I imagine I could use a smaller system with the R-410a for one.

- Thanks, Andreas

I can't coment on 410, it relatively new so I imagine it will be around for the next ten years or so.

134a will not though, it will be on its way out in Europe.

Cheers taz.

[wambat]

Has EPA finalized the rule on restricting the sale of R-134a?
Answer:Is it still legal to purchase R-134a?
EPA has finalized a rulemaking (69 FR 11946; March 12, 2004 (PDF, 485 KB)) that does not include a restriction on the sale of HFC refrigerant R-134a
I would stay with 134a and save a lot of money

[Argus]

134a will not though, it will be on its way out in Europe.

Presumably you mean the EU, what's the basis for that, Taz?

[Lowrider]

There are plans to phase out R134a, but I'm not sure about the year.

R410a has a higher COP than R134a since the specific gasvolume of it is higher than that of R134a at the same temperature. But there are some other things to consider, such as the higher pressure's at the same temperature's as R134a. This puts a higher demand on the manufacturing of the systems.

Most manufacturers are already using R410a or are planning to do so in the near future!

[Argus]

.....There are plans to phase out R134a, but I'm not sure about the year.....

I keep hearing this about R 134a, but what are your sources?

There are no plans as far as I'm aware in the EU.

.

[The MG Pony]

I've read in allot of the manufacterors lititure that the phase out of 134a is good as gurenteed in the near future in the EU as well, just can't recall which one exactly I'm with Taz, go to R-410, seems worth it in all regards, that or go HC they're good gasses too!

[Thermatech]

Did you investigate what other manufacturers are currently using in train carrage air conditioning systems ?

Mitsubishi Electric have made train carrage a/c for many years & export arround the world. The famous bullet train in Japan & New York subway carrages for example.

The major global manufacturers in Japan like Daikin & Mitsubishi tend to lead with technology & new refrigerants & then all others follow.

What refrigerant are the leaders in transport air conditioning using & planning to use in the next few years?

I would suspect CO2 as a long term possibilty.

[ajr]

I have been using hydrocarbon refrigerants latley, there is a risk of flammability with them but 410a and all refrigerants for that matter are dangerous if not handled correctly, H.C refrigerants are a hit with me lower head pressures especially in the desert heat here in Australia.

[NoNickName]

Those who say that R410A has a higher COP are wrong. COP does not depend on refrigerant, but on thermodynamics.

As for your refrigerant of choice, in high ambient I would go for R134a, in low ambient R410A.