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  1. #51
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump



    on and on with no photos of your real "dreams", seems like someone else is the master of spin....
    desA, our sales are just fine thanks to your ignorance....I can find nowhere any data on what you have been doing "in the lab"...let's put your money where your mouth is.....You have no idea who I am nor what my technical experience is...I did not insult you and your background until you started with cheap shots of your own...Back up your mouth! you see what we offer, the performance you have already found, so see if you can calculate it yourself....I ask you once again, what over blown claims do you refer to? state exactly where I overblew a claim? Also, none of you naysayers had a pompous remark about the link on CO2 cooling and heating in American Office bldgs you looked at....seems if no stupid comment, then you must agree with it's content....
    as you know MF, this unit can easily achieve a 194 F hot water outlet temperature...but of course at a lower capacity, COP...What you see on the data sheet is real data, proven over and over...And please don't bash our compressor...you know it is made by one of the most experienced and respected industrial compressor manufacturers in the world for over 80 years now, and this was developed for this application, is bullet proof and with little current comparison made in one of the most advanced compressor facilities available.
    Last, it is not anger or seriousness applied, rather PASSION for technology and how it is applied, why my responses are what they are. It was never said this was the wonder machine, or the only thing to buy, or the greatest thing since sliced bread, rather a good alternative for certain applications. Passion steps in when ridiculous remarks and unbacked claims are made with little regard to professionalism...
    back in the chill mode.....



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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Would you please post up some CoolPack snapshots of your technical claims. Showing someone else's brochure, with their logo blocked out simply will not pass muster, I'm afraid.

    It is free download software. http://www.ipu.dk/English/IPU-Manufa.../CoolPack.aspx

    Any techie worth his/her salt will be able to prove their point using this simple simulation environment. Give it a whirl - it even has CO2 modules.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Pic as requested, made for the farm industry. No bell and whistles. priced RRP US$8000 (ish)
    Heating cap at 15-85C single pass max 22.2kw
    Cooling cap (trade secret) 16.4kw
    Power draw 4.9kw
    COP 7.9
    Boost unit.PNG

  4. #54
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    That's a nice machine, MK. Excellent.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
    on and on with no photos of your real "dreams", seems like someone else is the master of spin....
    desA, our sales are just fine thanks to your ignorance....I can find nowhere any data on what you have been doing "in the lab"...let's put your money where your mouth is.....You have no idea who I am nor what my technical experience is...I did not insult you and your background until you started with cheap shots of your own...Back up your mouth! you see what we offer, the performance you have already found, so see if you can calculate it yourself....I ask you once again, what over blown claims do you refer to? state exactly where I overblew a claim? Also, none of you naysayers had a pompous remark about the link on CO2 cooling and heating in American Office bldgs you looked at....seems if no stupid comment, then you must agree with it's content....
    as you know MF, this unit can easily achieve a 194 F hot water outlet temperature...but of course at a lower capacity, COP...What you see on the data sheet is real data, proven over and over...And please don't bash our compressor...you know it is made by one of the most experienced and respected industrial compressor manufacturers in the world for over 80 years now, and this was developed for this application, is bullet proof and with little current comparison made in one of the most advanced compressor facilities available.
    Last, it is not anger or seriousness applied, rather PASSION for technology and how it is applied, why my responses are what they are. It was never said this was the wonder machine, or the only thing to buy, or the greatest thing since sliced bread, rather a good alternative for certain applications. Passion steps in when ridiculous remarks and unbacked claims are made with little regard to professionalism...
    back in the chill mode.....
    Jack is flowing nicely chilled, so I did not bash your compressor, the compressor chosen in my base sample was a semi hermetic, you had assumed that i had choosen a a hermetic (this is what i meant)
    It is good that you passion, so do we, I agreed with you on many aspects, I see so many times clients who have purchased equipment that has promised the earth, where sales have overtaken engineering reality. It is more to do with clients understand, they tend to take the high selling point (general rule) and many times and not able to understand the difference between engineering fact and sales hype.
    I will try explain better without getting bitchy.
    You stated that you can reach 194F (I agree this can happen)
    It was stated that a COP of 8 can be reached.
    You and I know that the 2 facts above can not occur at the same time.
    But in the clients mind it may (this does very much depend upon the sales guy/girl and how much he wants the sale) we all need to make money.
    This is where i felt there was some mis-leading information. Thus i felt it need to be clarified, whilst also finding out more performance information for an application which has arisen.
    Photo sent.

  6. #56
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown,
    but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...

    desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
    Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Tried to download on site performance, sorry file to big for this site. (not a computer wiss)

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
    MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown,
    but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...

    desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
    Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....
    Thanks coldwine, yes is smaller, i do not see a major market at present for purpose built larger ones.
    For this reason only did I have to choose a simulated machine.(not actually based around this technology)
    Yes machine is designed and produced for its particular market. (not limited to dairy but this where the target market is)
    The internal components are where possible NZ made, so high quality (???) Japanese electrical control gear, designed for very easy service, we also include full CIP, at these temps fouling is always a problem. Installation can be completed with out removing asingle cover. Simple fault diagnostics (for the farmer) many levels of protection, auto reset for non critical faults, no comms, not needed.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Coldwine is it possible that you could give me the performance data for a CO2 Ecocute?
    Hot water entering 15C heated to 85C
    Cold water enterin 20C cooled to 15C
    Flow rates as required
    showing heat out put,
    cooling output
    and power draw.
    Thank you

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
    MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown,
    but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...

    desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
    Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....
    The fact that you have a product on the market doesn't make it a good product... nor does it demonstrate any particular expertise on your part... so you can drop the superior attitude.

    (and you have the audacity to call others pompous)
    Last edited by Gary; 26-02-2010 at 08:52 AM.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    CO2 is just another refrigerant, and not a very good one. If it weren't for all of the environmental nonsense, nobody would be seriously considering using it.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
    but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...
    You simply cannot walk your talk, can you?

    MF is being very gentle with you...
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    CO2 is just another refrigerant, and not a very good one. If it weren't for all of the environmental nonsense, nobody would be seriously considering using it.
    It has a very serious problem when the Te,sat rises too high. Reason : this gets close to the critical temp for CO2. It plays havoc with line sizes & the pressure drops go through the roof - can be as high as 300%!

    The bi-stability issue is a serious one & has to be carefully managed by the system controller. If not careful, the system can flip into a mode where little, if any, heat is pumped. The CO2 industry generally chooses to overlook, or to not discuss this fact.

    There are 'issues' to be addressed here. CO2 is not a 'wonder technology'. I happen to like the fact that we can make hot water using CO2. But, of late, the aggressive marketing tactics displayed by the CO2 devotees have become a little unbearable. This is across the board - not only the current proponent under inquisition.
    Last edited by desA; 26-02-2010 at 10:57 AM.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    MF, thank you for your explanation and I agree your unit shown is a nice packaged unit for your intended market.. ....nice job.
    desA....it is you that cannot back anything up you say...it seems you are like a little bird on a few peoples shoulders, and when they speak up, you chime in with them....never on your own with your OWN knowledge.....you state a few issues that you maybe read in one of your knowledge magazines, known about CO2 in a closed cycle that were addressed years ago in the development of this product. Bi stability and 3 point is a non issue here, and we do not overlook anything. One is not a manufacturer for over 80 years with worldwide installations, if they overlook critical or even not so critical issues. Our business is on repeat clients.
    Show me your pictures, I'll show you mine...
    And then there's Gary....one who claims that I relentlessy market my product here, from the same guy that has on EVERY post comment he makes a little ad for some product he is trying to sell...we don't have the choice of not seeing your ad everytime you write...seems like relentless marketing to me....upon Sherlocks further review of the product, it seems it is based on 12 to 15 year old technology...maybe you are missing the chapter on CO2 refrigeration?...time to update the material.....stop looking for the hanging "chad".....lol...The environmental issues are real, they might not be as big as some suggest...but common sense tells us we cannot pollute, use massive amounts of energy with little disregard for the earths cycle. I am not a "greenie", but these are real issues.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Coldwine, what's in fact your intention? If you come here to poke around a bit, then you better leave your sarcastic undertone in your messages.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Coldwine, can not agree more "massive amount of energy", regardless if you beleive in global warming or not, we are using the earths resouses quickly.
    Changes are being made, at what rate, I see as being dependent on education (turning appliances off at the wall, no standby with the remote etc) and capital cost.
    There are always those who are fortunate that they can purchase the best technologies (in all fields).
    If I look at your ecocute product, (hope you are not offeneded) it is a top end product, maybe overtime with practical experience, some of the techniquies presently used, maybe eliminated, or changed to reduce the capital cost, open the market to a greater client base. As production increases, costs should reduce.
    we also have many agruments around, the laws of diminshing returns.
    On an engineering point related to refrigeration, the higher the COP, the less stress is applied to the refrigeration machinery, hence increased longevity.
    We are likely to disagree on refrigerant choice. But life would be a bit boring if we did all think the same.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Peter....I have no intention here other than to reply to a comment regarding the name ECO Cute and that a unit is available...pure and simple...I apologize for any comments made that offended anyone....it seemed to spark a big debate...which is good in this industry in our opinion, unfortunately some rude and disrespectful comments were made, so we fired back.
    I have been a member under a different user for almost 9 years now, so I am not poking around.
    we will now stop on our side and let the product stand on it's own. Again it is only for certain engineered applications, is not at all a wonder machine, nor is CO2. It must be applied correctly.
    Sorry again if anyone was offended. Best to all.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Will the Earth get warmer? Maybe, maybe not. But that isn't the point.

    The big question is, will impoverishing the masses (not to mention future generations) and allowing the environmental nutcases to dictate our every waking moment, stop Mother Nature from doing whatever she wants to do? Seems highly doubtful.

    It's all a big money grab. They point at the environment with one hand and pick your pocket with the other hand. The environment is the distraction. It's all about picking your pocket.

    I'm all for improving technology, saving energy and saving money, but talk of saving the planet just twists my tail.

    Anything CO2 can do, other refrigerants can do better, safer and a whole lot cheaper. Prove me wrong.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
    desA....it is you that cannot back anything up you say...it seems you are like a little bird on a few peoples shoulders, and when they speak up, you chime in with them....never on your own with your OWN knowledge.....you state a few issues that you maybe read in one of your knowledge magazines,
    I don't normally bother to rise to the personal attacks, but, it seems like this is now necessary. You know, here's a thought for you to think about in more detail. If a salesperson has to resort to attacking the customer, or someone who challenges their technical claims, then they are either imposters, or their claims have no substance.

    Personally, I think that you are trying to use RE to stir up controversy over CO2 in an effort to pursue your own marketing agenda. Frankly, you have done nothing other than to prove yourself to be a snake-oil salesman & charlatan. If you were at all confident about 'your' product, or work, you would not attack as you do. You have, unfortunately, come across as an immature, petulant blowhard, activist, bleeding-heart type. You, in all likelihood, seem to have no product of your own. You have plagiarised the work of others, in a very amateurish manner, passing them off as your own product. This is IP theft.

    For the record, my product brand name is registered under the natural initiative drive. I happen to subscribe to the idea of CO2 & alternative refrigerants, each with their own place, amongst the other refrigerants. I do not, however, subscribe to claims about CO2 that are simply marketing hype from a person who really has no idea on the subject matter at hand.

    You & your tirades are in danger of bringing R744 into disrepute. You should think more deeply on this.

    known about CO2 in a closed cycle that were addressed years ago in the development of this product. Bi stability and 3 point is a non issue here, and we do not overlook anything.
    All well & good. Then, please explain for the RE readership what the specific remedies are/were for the bi-stability, or multi-stability phenomenon. This would be helpful.

    One is not a manufacturer for over 80 years with worldwide installations, if they overlook critical or even not so critical issues. Our business is on repeat clients.
    Another unsubstantiated claim. You seem to be dreaming.

    Show me your pictures, I'll show you mine...
    You have not yet shown a single set of calulations to back up your claims. I expect that you will continue to bluster on, but never produce anything of substance, simply because you don't have the faintest clue.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    @coldwine:
    Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, let's change tack a little - an offer of assistance.

    If you would like to post hard test results - your design targets for your systems - I'm sure that MF & I could assist to turn these into something presentable.

    This could be informative to the RE readership & be of interest to many of us. The offer is presented in good faith - this is a technical discussion forum, after all.
    Last edited by desA; 27-02-2010 at 06:28 AM.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Des A
    I am watching with interest as well, me and Toosh are waiting, for actual figures.
    magoo

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Capture CO2 great.PNG

    Capture CO2 practical.PNG

    Here are some CO2 calcs showing reasonable results
    As with all refrigeration heat exchanger selection is Key.
    The 2 show what i think is practically great (but un likely)
    The second show what i would expext practically from evaps and gas coolers (not as good a heat exchange as phase change).

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    I think you will find, that at these exstremes, R134a and CO2 performance is very similar, both in theory and practice.
    I can see improvements on both methods. But cost aspects come into play. "law of diminishing returns"
    I would say the main point of difference is capital cost and service Knowledge (R134a well known by many, CO2 at this stage limited to the average tech.)
    Co2 is natural, and thus could been seen as benefit of CO2.
    I stiil believe that the yearly load profile is of the greastest importance.
    There are a very few applications where hot water use and cooling are balanced. most need one and not the other, or use is at different times. (in the small range (upto 250kw) For this reason capital cost plays a major," return on investment" or "payback"
    Last edited by mad fridgie; 28-02-2010 at 04:25 AM.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
    Peter....I have no intention here other than to reply to a comment regarding the name ECO Cute and that a unit is available...pure and simple...I apologize for any comments made that offended anyone....it seemed to spark a big debate...which is good in this industry in our opinion, unfortunately some rude and disrespectful comments were made, so we fired back.
    I have been a member under a different user for almost 9 years now, so I am not poking around.
    we will now stop on our side and let the product stand on it's own. Again it is only for certain engineered applications, is not at all a wonder machine, nor is CO2. It must be applied correctly.
    Sorry again if anyone was offended. Best to all.
    desa , i think according to this post Coldwine has retreated into his shell
    My wife used to say you never listen to a word I say at least I think that what she said

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Capture CO2 great.PNG

    Capture CO2 practical.PNG

    Here are some CO2 calcs showing reasonable results
    As with all refrigeration heat exchanger selection is Key.
    The 2 show what i think is practically great (but un likely)
    The second show what i would expext practically from evaps and gas coolers (not as good a heat exchange as phase change).
    Thanks MF. A very interesting comparison, indeed. The COP's vary enormously with what is an apparently minor spec change.

    Looks to be different compressor requirements for each option, no?
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    I think you will find, that at these exstremes, R134a and CO2 performance is very similar, both in theory and practice.
    I can see improvements on both methods. But cost aspects come into play. "law of diminishing returns"
    I would say the main point of difference is capital cost and service Knowledge (R134a well known by many, CO2 at this stage limited to the average tech.)
    Co2 is natural, and thus could been seen as benefit of CO2.
    I stiil believe that the yearly load profile is of the greastest importance.
    There are a very few applications where hot water use and cooling are balanced. most need one and not the other, or use is at different times. (in the small range (upto 250kw) For this reason capital cost plays a major," return on investment" or "payback"
    MF, could you look at a direct spec comparison for HFC's & possibly other 'natural' refrigerants? Would you also like to venture into Boost territory (without giving away your secrets, though)?

    These comparisons could be very useful.

    I'd also like to see the effect in CoolPack with elevated Te,sat - for heat-pump applications, on line size selection. I have seen NH3 muted as a potentially useful alternative refrigerant again - in a Rankine-cycle heat-pump system. Concern here with discharge temps & materials of construction - thermodynamically worked a treat.
    Last edited by desA; 28-02-2010 at 05:42 AM.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by Toosh View Post
    desa , i think according to this post Coldwine has retreated into his shell
    That would indeed be a great pity. Would be nice for him to pad up & bat an innings, or two.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    20/20 NZ verses Aus

    Have alook later

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    MF, could you look at a direct spec comparison for HFC's & possibly other 'natural' refrigerants? Would you also like to venture into Boost territory (without giving away your secrets, though)?

    These comparisons could be very useful.


    I'd also like to see the effect in CoolPack with elevated Te,sat - for heat-pump applications, on line size selection. I have seen NH3 muted as a potentially useful alternative refrigerant again - in a Rankine-cycle heat-pump system. Concern here with discharge temps & materials of construction - thermodynamically worked a treat.
    Hi desa Here is one


    http://www.inive.org/members_area/me...997%5CP360.pdf

    Toosh
    My wife used to say you never listen to a word I say at least I think that what she said

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by Toosh View Post
    Wow, Toosh - another incredible find. Don't know how you do it...
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    Wow, Toosh - another incredible find. Don't know how you do it...



    Note the mathematical model COP against actual
    http://www.waset.org/journals/waset/v43/v43-48.pdf
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Note the tone of the introduction. How credible can a "scientific" study be when it is, by its own admission, politically motivated?

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Note the tone of the introduction. How credible can a "scientific" study be when it is, by its own admission, politically motivated?

    Hi Gary I totally agree they can`t run countries so they stick they`re beak in when they think its popular
    My wife used to say you never listen to a word I say at least I think that what she said

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    I do not know if it is worth doing other simulations, because all I would be doing estimating what I think may happen (even if the program is 100% correct, it is only as good as the inputed data.)
    I was hoping coldwine may have come back with real data.
    When it comes to whole systems there are so many variables
    Compressor, compression efficiency, moter efficiency. should we talk about Kw or Kva.
    I see in those articles tha Toosh provided, that the CO2 was oil free, is this actually the case, if not then some form of film is going to form, reducing heat transfer, then what about water fouling, this is going to happen at the high temps indicated.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    I do not know if it is worth doing other simulations, because all I would be doing estimating what I think may happen (even if the program is 100% correct, it is only as good as the inputed data.)
    I was hoping coldwine may have come back with real data.
    When it comes to whole systems there are so many variables
    Compressor, compression efficiency, moter efficiency. should we talk about Kw or Kva.
    I see in those articles tha Toosh provided, that the CO2 was oil free, is this actually the case, if not then some form of film is going to form, reducing heat transfer, then what about water fouling, this is going to happen at the high temps indicated.
    Very true. Perhaps we'll have to let things wait until 'coldwine' gets over his hangover?
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump



    This one?
    Last edited by desA; 28-02-2010 at 11:22 AM.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    slightly of issue but relevent.
    COP of 8
    COP of 9
    Saving differnce is 1.4%
    Always worth thinking about.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    ^ Very true... 1.389%

    Food for thought.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Round two has started the bell has rung, check your seconds and come out fighting. No kicking or low blows please just sound intelligent commentaries please.
    Toosh and I are waiting with baited breath.
    magoo

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by Magoo View Post
    Toosh and I are waiting with bad breath.
    magoo
    Say again...
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Hi desa this is interesting, about wear and tear under high pressures

    http://www.stle.org/assets/document/...ard_winner.pdf
    My wife used to say you never listen to a word I say at least I think that what she said

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by Toosh View Post
    Hi desa this is interesting, about wear and tear under high pressures

    http://www.stle.org/assets/document/...ard_winner.pdf
    Interesting article. I read into it that they are still testing at an operating pressure some 50% of the CO2 maximum operating pressure. We will probably have to see what practical information returns from the field.

    Somehow, this info seems to have been sparse - perhaps because most of the machines have been operatonal in Japan, where information flow often seems to be slow in coming, if at all.
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    My wife used to say you never listen to a word I say at least I think that what she said

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Very nice...
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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    wow after all that reading and excitement I'm pretty relieved this thread is over
    or is it
    Last edited by chillman; 05-10-2010 at 04:22 PM.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by Thermatech View Post
    I had hoped to flush out some Japanese engineers who watch this site with the post a few weeks back about EcoCute heat pumps.
    It would seem they are too shy to make any comment.
    • Here you go my friend!

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    HW HW HS HS HW HS HC CC PWR COPh COPt
    OUT IN IN OUT
    ℃ ℃ ℃ ℃ L/min L/min kW kW kW - -
    90 15.0 20.0 15.0 17.5 195.0 91.4 68.0 26.3 3.47 6.06

    90 20.0 20.0 15.0 17.9 183.0 87.3 63.9 26.3 3.32 5.74

    90 25.0 20.0 15.0 18.3 170.3 83.0 59.4 26.4 3.15 5.40

    90 30.0 20.0 15.0 18.7 156.8 78.4 54.7 26.4 2.97 5.04

    90 35.0 20.0 16.5 19.4 206.4 74.3 50.4 26.6 2.80 4.69

    90 45.0 20.0 16.5 20.3 161.8 63.7 39.5 26.7 2.38 3.86

    90 50.0 20.0 17.0 20.8 161.6 58.2 33.8 26.8 2.17 3.43

    90 55.0 20.0 17.0 21.4 132.2 52.2 27.7 26.9 1.94 2.96

    90 60.0 20.0 18.0 22.0 153.7 46.1 21.4 27.1 1.70 2.49

    90 65.0 20.0 19.0 22.7 212.3 39.6 14.8 27.2 1.46 2.00


    There seems to be a fair bit of hype and fight over this product in this forum. here is the run you asked for plus several others so you can draw your own conclusions

    I am sorry I have been away from refrigeration engineer. I will answer what ever I think I can from what I have studied so far.

    I posted way back in 2008 about Eco-cutes name being very Japanese. at the time I did not realize how true this was. I have since been applying EC technology in engineering applications in the HVAC and industrial food industry.

    "Kyūtō-ki" is were the Cute comes from. "Kyuto" which stands for Hot water supply and "Ki" which is machine or equipment. Eco for economic or ecology Eco-Cute

    Eco-cute = Hot Water Supply Equipment, and trust me direct Japanese to English translations do not happen to make sense that often. but this one is the nail in the head

    Eco-cute or CO2 Trans-critical are not here to alter or take over the Heat pump market. Eco-cute is a great tool and/or weapon in an engineers arsenal, for HVAC design. Not a replacement.

    alot of the times if Eco-cute is compared in heating applications.
    Usually based on North American standard low delta - T 10-15 F 200-400 GPM to a market ready chemical/man heat pumps or boiler.

    Eco-cute will have a similar COPh with high water temperatures and lower flow. Not a great heating appliance for N/A.
    If one can use a modulating flow design, with a much larger delta T (45F is minimum required) Eco-cute can do a good job.
    but the design must be taken into consideration early so that it reflects the run characteristics of trans-critical heat pump instead of a standard heat pump appliance.

    Were Eco-cute performs is on projects were domestic hot water is involved.

    just like the EC name implies! Hot water supply equipment!
    High DHW demand suits Eco-cute's abilities well, then do supplementary space heating achieved through a plate exchanger.
    Pricing is another issue which is old as time but applied right Eco-cute can make project dollars and sense.
    Last edited by IceMan_4000; 17-05-2011 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Cause I have bad grammar and the chart looked like crap
    Refrigeration is not just cool, it is my life.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    Somehow, this info seems to have been sparse - perhaps because most of the machines have been operatonal in Japan, where information flow often seems to be slow in coming, if at all.
    OMG I feel this pain of information flow every day.. lol
    Refrigeration is not just cool, it is my life.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Quote Originally Posted by desA View Post
    To be honest, CO2 is really only where it is due to an excessive subsidy from the Japanese government.

    Let's give this technology some time to settle down, before making extraordinary claims. I suspect that in hindsight, that an alternative like HFO will come along for the commercial sector, & outpace CO2. Simplicity & price will be the keys.

    I frankly think that if you try to justify your prices on the latest environmental fad, that your business model may very well suffer.

    You are having a go at MF & I, for our comments. For the record, we are both designers of heat-pumps systems, amongst other things. So, practically, we, as well as many others on RE, are fully aware of CO2 - it is nothing new.

    I wish you all the very best of success with your products. Do try to chill a little. Sorry if you were offended.
    This guy if he was still alive might be mad... Yes the Japanese government had something to do with it but he did all the research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_...en_(scientist)
    Refrigeration is not just cool, it is my life.

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    Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump

    Thanks Iceman_4000 for some interesting information.
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