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  1. #51
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!



    Try this one. The maintenance guy at our local dairy, well the only dairy, this is a small island. He used to cut an opening about 2 to 3" sq into the side of an old 1 gallon metal oil can. Put the lid on and then purge a little Ammonia into the can. After which he would take a liquid dropper and drip one small drop of water through the opening. The can would collapse in on itself!



  2. #52
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    I have worked with ammonia for more than twenty years now and still deal with it every day. I have about 20,000 pounds of ammonia in my small system. I'd like to address the original topic of NH3 "finding" the water in the bucket. Every expert will tell you ammonia is drawn to moisture, and given the right circumstance NH3 vapor will in fact "find" water. It isn't magic or even a fairy tale. I am certain the story was highly embellished to awe the novice, but it was based upon well documented fact. Ammonia likes water.

    I have been a refrigeration engineer for more than 20 years and I am trained as a HazMat responder to deal with ammonia releases, and frankly I find it to be terribly exciting more than anything. Ammonia isn't the boogie man everyone makes it out to be. I'll be rebuilding NH3 pumps and valves, replacing old pipe, moving thousands of pounds of ammonia around the system , and giving my compressors a good going over during the next few weeks before production.

    I LIKE AMMONIA!

  3. #53
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Hell yeah!

  4. #54
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
    We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
    If in doubt read the instructions. If still in doubt follow them.

  5. #55
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrocer
    In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
    We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
    I don't see where this has anything to do with ammonia systems other than the scratching the crown jewels part. Sweat and ammonia makes for an interesting case of diaper rash in the summer.

    Other than that, the rest is guilt by association.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


  6. #56
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrocer View Post
    In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
    We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
    Probably, he didn't have shower for a few weeks. Any connections with ammonia refrigeration plant?

  7. #57
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrocer View Post
    In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
    We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
    I liked the comment Greengrocer, how many of us older "Stinkies" have stood in a plant room smelling of Ammonia.
    And said to the new trainee "smell! what smell?"
    My wife goes nuts for days after I have used my purge lines and returned them to the car.
    She sometimes forgets that it is my working vehicle.
    Grizzly

  8. #58
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    it's not the refrigerant that is dangerous, it is the idiot with the wrench. Rented a house with a Arkla gas AC, called landlord for service. he called his company for service. When the idiot could not solve the problem, he stuck a tube of lip balm under the sail switch. I noticed the safety violation and called the land lord but he had already paid for the "service".
    I think NH3 is safer. NH3 is not used in the local residential market leaving R22 and the like. Sometimes I run into R22 that pops-out of an oil trap when brazing. Hate that, because I know what it does.

  9. #59
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Quote Originally Posted by hendry View Post
    haven't been there lately ...
    hearsay, they found cheaper refrigeration "specialist" ...

    we move on ... with dignity!
    yeah .. i've news on their latest leakages.
    last friday!

    this round from an abandoned northstar ice machine!

    anyway, i only observe from as far as 100km away.

    Hendry, on wesak day holiday.
    Hendry

    "What uncertainty means to you, and you only?"

  10. #60
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Your never too old to learn!
    Whilst purging off a faulty EVRA 20 (Hot Gas Line Solenoid Valve).
    I managed to find a little pocket of liquid Ammonia which sprayed out,when I broke the seal between the armature and body.

    No problem I thought as I was prepared and had carefully loosened the bolts, diagonally.
    So whilst holding my breath I snapped shut the valve and made a Hasty retreat to-wards the plant room door.

    Having reached the safety of the fresh air outside the plant room. I took a big gulp of Air.

    About the same time as I realised that the fresh air stank of Ammonia, a precious part of my anatomy started to burn. Burn maybe not, but it was getting rather warm in that region!

    Only then did it dawn on me that the stream of liquid Ammonia had saturated
    the waistband of my overalls.
    Which now having found a heat source was boiling off.
    So instead of fresh air I was breathing high concentrations of Ammonia vapour.

    By this time the 2 site engineers that had led the rapid Exodus from the plant room.

    Were doubled up in laughter at the sight of yours truly jumping up and down gasping for air.
    Whilst trying to rip my overalls off!!
    I did laugh eventually once I had got my breath back.
    Despite this minor setback. The valve was fixed (which had a perforated diaphragm).

    And the Engineers gave me a nice bag of Crabs Claws packed in ice for supper. (It's a Ice Plant!)

    Grizzly

  11. #61
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Reminds me of a like experience about 30 years ago. A technician and I were bleeding down a line section is a closed engine room, exhaust fans running max speed, and we had on the ammonia mask to go in and break the control valve loose after the line was depressurized (mostly). It was August in North Carolina and hotter than hades. About the same time we both dropped the wrenches and bailed out, headed to the emergency shower and were fighting as to who got to strip the overalls and save the "family jewels" first. I was the large one and got the shower, the tech, dragged a box over and was cooling himself in the emergency eye wash.

    We got a big whoopie from the ladies on break at the back dock. Working with ammonia is so interesting...no telling what you will have to do day to day.

    Ken
    Last edited by TXiceman; 30-05-2008 at 04:45 AM.

  12. #62
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Quote Originally Posted by TXiceman View Post
    Reminds me of a like experience about 30 years ago. A technician and I were bleeding down a line section is a closed engine room, exhaust fans running max speed, and we had on the ammonia mask to go in and break the control valve loose after the line was depressurized (mostly). It was August in North Carolina and hotter than hades. About the same time we both dropped the wrenches and bailed out, headed to the emergency shower and were fighting as to who got to strip the overalls and save the "family jewels" first. I was the large one and got the shower, the tech, dragged a box over and was cooling himself in the emergency eye wash.

    We got a big whoopie from the ladies on break at the back dock. Working with ammonia is so interesting...no telling what you will have to do day to day.

    Ken
    "Ken" is Scottish slang for understand and as they say you have been there and had the teeshirt Iceman.

    Yep!
    It can be interesting and I am sure there are lots of the guys out there that can relate to both stories?

    I just posted it because it's yet another amusing story.
    With a happy ending!
    Grizzly

  13. #63
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycho View Post
    WROOOOOOOONG!!!!!

    Phosgene gas IS NOT the same as mustard gas...

    Phosgene is a mix of chlorine and carbon monoxide. It is colorless and odorless and it attacks the lungs, causing edemas... simply put, it drowns you in your own body fluids....

    ----------------

    Mustard gas is synthesized by treating sulfur dichloride with ethylene.

    copied from wikipedia: Mustard gas is a strong vesicant (blister-causing agent). Due to its alkylating properties, it is also strongly mutagenic (causing damage to the DNA of exposed cells) and carcinogenic (cancer causing). Those exposed usually suffer no immediate symptoms. Within 4 to 24 hours the exposure develops into deep, itching or burning blisters wherever the mustard contacted the skin; the eyes (if exposed) become sore and the eyelids swollen, possibly leading to conjunctivitis and blindness. According to the Medical Management of Chemical Casualties handbook, there have been experimental cases in humans where the patient has suffered miosis, or pinpointing of pupils, as a result of the cholinomimetic activity of mustard. At very high concentrations, if inhaled, it causes bleeding and blistering within the respiratory system, damaging the mucous membrane and causing pulmonary edema. Blister agent exposure over more than 50% body surface area is usually fatal.

    --------------------------

    you were correct in the fact that Phosgene was used as a weapon in WWI...

    I'm sorry, but it Pssses me of to no end when people mix these two up... they are not the same, never have and never will
    Whilst you are of course correct to say that Mustard gas and Phosgene are not the same, unfortunately, you accidently omitted the words "made from" :
    Phosgene is carbonyl chloride, [COCl2] , it can be made from a mixture of chlorine [Cl2] and carbon monoxide [CO]. Mustard Gas is ββ'-Dichloroethyl Sulphide, [ (ClCH2.CH2)2S ] and as you stated, can be made from ethylene [CH2:CH2] and Sulphur dichloride [S2Cl2] .

  14. #64
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    Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!

    Quote Originally Posted by ArthurLeigh View Post
    Whilst you are of course correct to say that Mustard gas and Phosgene are not the same, unfortunately, you accidently omitted the words "made from" :
    Phosgene is carbonyl chloride, [COCl2] , it can be made from a mixture of chlorine [Cl2] and carbon monoxide [CO]. Mustard Gas is ββ'-Dichloroethyl Sulphide, [ (ClCH2.CH2)2S ] and as you stated, can be made from ethylene [CH2:CH2] and Sulphur dichloride [S2Cl2] .

    pfffft...

    -Cheers-

    Tycho

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