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  1. #101
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland



    No - Not one sensible answer.

    Lots of useless facts and figures, but not one person has actually read the question and responded to it.

    too busy getting their own point across in petty arguments unfortunatley,

    If anyone does actually have an answer to the opening question it would be appreciated.

    Thanks



  2. #102
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland

    .

    Quite right. This thread disappeared into nonsense long ago.

    But, what did the Swiss authorities say?

    Have you asked them?

    .

  3. #103
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland

    134a is the worse schitt they made. I'll be glad when it's gone. was it just coincidence that they banned r12 the same time duponts patent ran out? I like "hot shot". put it right on top of r12 and is a replacement for 134a.

  4. #104
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    Banning is more political than engineering reality

    Most refrigerant replacement occurs when a company's license expires & generics flood the markets -- for example Dupont R12 & R22 patents expired so they come up with 134a & 410a to attemp to control the market.

  5. #105
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    I disagree with this statement

    The fact is a properly installed & maintained system doesn't leak -- I've seen plenty examples where chillers haven't leaked from 20 or more years of service -- more unqualified contractors & engineers should be held accountable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tapas K Mitra View Post
    It was perfectly right to ban R134A. In fact R404a should also be banned. If we don't try to save our planet even now, human race will history in another 100 years. Then we will not be there to blame the Greenies. Do you traces of vegetation is found in Antarctica. What are we heading at?

  6. #106
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    Global warming is CO2 based, not refrigerant

    CO2 emissions from power plants, especially coal, cause 10 times more global warming than refrigerants.

    Next we need to consider cars & trucks.

    CO2 causes global warming -- refrigerants cause ozone depletion that can cause skin cancers, etc.

    Hey -- why not capture the CO2 emissions from these processes for refrigeration -- know that's a novel idea!

  7. #107
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    Re: I disagree with this statement

    Quote Originally Posted by EmCoastHVACR View Post
    The fact is a properly installed & maintained system doesn't leak -- I've seen plenty examples where chillers haven't leaked from 20 or more years of service -- more unqualified contractors & engineers should be held accountable.
    I disagree with this statement.
    Every system leak, even "hermetically sealed", no matter how good is commissioned, only difference is how much.
    If every step of commissioning is done with great care and expertize, than we could expect many years without need to add refrigerant, in order to compensate for, inevitable, but small leak.

  8. #108
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    Re: Global warming is CO2 based, not refrigerant

    Quote Originally Posted by EmCoastHVACR View Post

    refrigerants cause ozone depletion that can cause skin cancers, etc.
    And global warming! Familiarize yourself with term Global Warming Potential (GWP).

    http://tinyurl.com/2omxbd

  9. #109
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland

    What about banning Sulfur hexafluoride? Are "scientists" so busy with refrigerants?

  10. #110
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    Re: Global warming is CO2 based, not refrigerant

    Quote Originally Posted by EmCoastHVACR View Post
    CO2 causes global warming -- refrigerants cause ozone depletion that can cause skin cancers, etc.
    I heard that R134a can cause testicular cancer.
    Can't remember where I heard it from though.

    Chillin
    IF AT FIRST YOU DON`T SUCCEED.
    DESTROY ALL EVIDENCE THAT YOU TRIED!
    and go get a cuppa

  11. #111
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland

    I also heard that women in bikinis can cause testicular cancer

    the key word in GWP is "Potential"

    the fact is CO2, unequivocally, causes Global Warming -- based on current academic & government research -- HFC & HCFC refrigerants deplete ground level & atmospheric level ozone -- huge difference.

    Some of the chiller systems that I service leak between 1 or 2 lbs a year to a few thousand lbs a year -- i've seen it all.

  12. #112
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland

    IF AT FIRST YOU DON`T SUCCEED.
    DESTROY ALL EVIDENCE THAT YOU TRIED!
    and go get a cuppa

  13. #113
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland

    Here is a reply from the Danfoss product manager in Switzerland Dominik Regenass:

    To my knowlegde, there is no change for any refrigerant in Switzerland for the 1.1.2008

    It's true that we have since 1.1.2004 a kind of license for new plants with more than 3kg HFKW.
    But it's not prohibited to use this refrigerant.
    You have to argue why to use a HFKW and you have to argue why a natural refrigerant is not possible to use.
    For HFKW plants with more than 3kg, you must have a maintenance and service document and also a checkup of density (thightness).
    There must be a technical service on those plants at least once a year and you have to document this.

    See the following text from an official document:

    The construction of equipment for refrigeration, air conditioning and heat pumps containing
    more than 3 kg of refrigerants stable in the air - mainly hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) - has been
    subject to licensing since 1 January 2004. A licence is granted if, according to the current state
    of technology, no alternative substances or other technologies are available, and emissions are
    restricted as far as possible. This guide is intended to provide practical help for the implementation
    of licensing. It defines the current state of technology for different fields of application
    (trade, industry and air conditioning). It includes compatibility with the environment, energy
    efficiency, the level of technological development, reliability in operation, availability on the
    market, economic acceptability and the safety of persons and of the environment. Since the state
    of technology is evolving, the guide is updated periodically.

    Regards Jorgen Bargsteen Moller, Danfoss

  14. #114
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    Re: R134A Ban in Switzerland

    Jorgen,

    Many thanks for throwing some light on this subject and bringing it back on topic.

    From your explanation and recognising the fact that Switzerland is not an EU country, the measures in place there for F Gas plant echo and predate some of the requirements in the current new EU F Gas regulation, especially leak tightness and regular checks.

    As far a permitted licensing of plant is concerned, as you describe in the second part of your post, it seems similar to the current rules in other European countries, notably Holland, Sweden etc.

    It may seem odd to some in the UK and elsewhere, where the use and sale of refrigerants is virtually unregulated, but some countries have more stringent rules, though not particularly onerous in my opinion.

    .

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