Releasing ammonia into the environment.

[Tycho]

There is a case going here in Norway at the moment government vs Teknotherm.

One of their engineers dumped 250 kg of liquid ammonia into a 1000 liter tank of water.

The tank was later tipped over and after some time the ammonia/water mix ran through the groundwater and into a fishing stream/river, killing lots of fish.

The engineer was heavily fined, and so was the company... (they are still fighting in the court).

Another engineer at teknotherm was also fined $500 for using a bucket of water to absorb the ammonia gas from a piston compressor and later pouring the water out on the ground.

In the court, they are treating the ammonia/water spill with the same rules as if you had dumped 250 kgs of mercury and similar substanses...

Now, of course you shouldnt dump ammonia into a river like that, but it was an accident... ok shart happens.

If the state wins it will set the presedence that ammonia is to be treated as highly toxic to the environment and lots of rules will be made, making customers flee from ammonia and find other more environmental damageing refrigerants... after all, ammonia is a natural product.


The law says noting about it being illegal to vent ammonia into the atmosphere, and if they are gonna hang me for using water to absorb it, be it in the ocean or in a bucket of water... and since I have yet to see a commercial available reclaiming unit for ammonia, well from now on I'll be the only guy working in the building or ship as I'll put on my mask, open the valves and go about my way.


any thoughts?

[Pooh]

Tycho
in the UK we work to the same rules, if you vent ammonia gas to the atmosphere and do not cause a nuisance by doing so it is OK however if you release it and it effects the health of any other living thing then you have a problem. As for perging into water that is OK but the water must then be treated as a controlled waste and handled as such making sure it does not enter the water course or effect any plant or animal life.
My usual way of getting rid of the water is to wait for a nice sunny day and find a large concrete area and pour it over it and stand back 5minutes later it has all gone.

It is a nightmare but the guy concerned was unlucky for it to enter the river and kill the fish.

When our local ice factory closed apparently 8 tonne of ammonia was purged into the dock while nobody was looking.

Ian

[Plank!]

... and since I have yet to see a commercial available reclaiming unit for ammonia,

I'm not sure if its commercialy available yet, polar pumps supplied us with an NH3 version of this unit:-
http://www.polarpumps.co.uk/products/spec_oilless.html
Works ok, just a little slow on bigger systems.

May well be worth dropping an email their way see if it's available yet.

[taz24]

I'm not sure if its commercialy available yet, polar pumps supplied us with an NH3 version of this unit:-
http://www.polarpumps.co.uk/products/spec_oilless.html
Works ok, just a little slow on bigger systems.

May well be worth dropping an email their way see if it's available yet.

They are.
Iv'e seen them and I've also seen the internal working of them.
They are extreemly well engineered.

Cheers taz.

[TXiceman]

Ammonia and water....what do they think the farmers use to fertilizer the fields. Aqua Ammonia is used as fertilizer in a controlled concentration.

Sounds like some government officials need to get there head removed from a certain location....suffering from a severe cranial-rectal inversion.

Ken

[PaulZ]

They have tightened up on what we can do with ammonia saturated water in Aust. The EPA is pretty strict these days and if we have a leak the Fire Brigade waht to know how much escaped as they report this to the EPA. Where possible we run a hose to the top of the condenser near the fan outlet, turn the fan on and let it go, have to be careful which way the wind is blowing. If we blow down into water we throw it on the concrete as mentioned before and let it evaporate.
I once tipped it down what I thought was the sewer, it was a stormwater drain. Fire Brigade came out looking for an Ammonia leak that was reported 2 bolcks away, didn't do that again.
Most governments are making it harder for us to do our job, too many rules and regulations, after all it is a naturally occuring gas.

[Mobbsy]

I recently made a number of inquiries within Aus, to find out the legally accepted method of the disposal of aqeous ammonia. After talking with the EPA, the water board and ARC, I was left with varying opinions, I say opinion as none seemed to be legislative fact. One thing is for sure and that is, the dumping of ammonia into stormwater, is a massive no no, due to among other things the effects on marine life. There are numerous cases of companies successfully prosecuted for dumping ammonia-water mixtures into river systems throughout the world.

After a number of conversations with government agencies, I was told (whether practical or not) that trade waste companies should remove it, what they are supposed to do with it, I don't know, one option as allready mentioned is to use it as a fertilizer.
I was also told that certain amounts could be dumped down the sewer, but levels would have to be tested and a permit granted, I stress that this was later contradicted and any dumping of ammonia-water mixes into ant waste system is unacceptable.

As we are at the dawn of a new era in the use of natural refrigerants, one of which is ammonia, an excellent refrigerant in it's own right; that has withstood the test of time.
Increased education into the safety issues of such refrigerants should be of the utmost importance of the HVAC & R industry worldwide; this should include the practical and safe disposal of natural refrigerants.

[Tycho]

Thanks for the input guys.

I was thinking yesterday if it was possible to mix something in the water/nh3 mix to neutralize it, would it only even out the acidity or remove the smell as well?


Another thing was a 3 meter long pipe at the end of a hose, with x amount of propane burners pointed at the end of the pipe... Voila, your very own personal incindiary tower <--- that one was mostly for fun, but the thought keeps getting more and more appealing

Imagine being on site, pull out 30 meters of hose, connect the pipe and 250Kw worth of propane burners.

Light up and open for ammonia a big black cloud covers for the sun for three hours and upon questioning by the police you answer "Well, I had 0.5 bar of pressure left in the crankcase"

Ok, I'm at the airport and bored out of my brains, waiting 3 more hours for my next flight bah...

[NH3LVR]

Thanks for the input guys.

I was thinking yesterday if it was possible to mix something in the water/nh3 mix to neutralize it, would it only even out the acidity or remove the smell as well?

Would recommend that acid would be better to mix with the NH3/H2O mixture. NH3 and water makes about a 10 on the PH Scale. As to the burner idea has anyone tried it?

[brian_chapin]

I was thinking yesterday if it was possible to mix something in the water/nh3 mix to neutralize it, would it only even out the acidity or remove the smell as well?

I have a procedure written to treat liquid ammonia spills with a mixture of 3# Citric Acid/1 gal of water but have never actually tried it.

In the rare instances we bleed ammonia into a water bucket, we usually just let the bucket sit in the engine room for a couple days until the ammonia has dissipated.

[aawood1]

As to the burner idea has anyone tried it?[/QUOTE]
Have not tried it but seen a welder who would not be tould start to cut into an pipe line before I had compleated the pump out. He was not happy when he was kicked off site. If we can not move the Ammonia around the plant and have to use water drum, it's just put out side for one week and left open and then poured over the concrete roadway out side the compressour room. ( there is no drains on this roadway)
Arthur

[petrock]

Hey,, How do you know when you have breathed in too much ammonia.????????????....

When you fart and your ass freezez up,!

[claude11]

What amount of water / NH3 do they consider toxic ?? Most window / glass cleaners are a ammonia and water mixture . Better call the wife and tell to look around before she does the windows

[Tycho]

Hey,, How do you know when you have breathed in too much ammonia.????????????....

When you fart and your ass freezez up,!

I've always said you are not a real ref before your chest frosts over when you cough

[Tycho]

What amount of water / NH3 do they consider toxic ?? Most window / glass cleaners are a ammonia and water mixture . Better call the wife and tell to look around before she does the windows

Lots of fish died in that river, and I believe the concentration needed to kill said fish was 2 ppm of NH3 (not sure on the number, I can't find the magazine with the article, but I'm 70% sure it was 2 ppm)...

how they found that out, I don't know, but I don't think PETA would approve

[Buckiesr]

Talk about PETA, have you studied the MSDS sheets to see the test thye run, showing how many ppm the product takes to kill a certian kind of fish, then another level to kill a larger fish, etc. So now a new question. How many MSDS tests does it take to kill a boat load of tuna?

[Buckiesr]

Talk about PETA, have you studied the MSDS sheets to see the test thye run, showing how many ppm the product takes to kill a certian kind of fish, then another level to kill a larger fish, etc. So now a new question. How many MSDS tests does it take to kill a boat load of tuna?
Concerning aqua ammonia, give it to a farmer I guess. I think I will run a pH test on the mud puddle in the field next time when I see him side dressing his corn ground. His field is less than 300 feet from my CPR. and 100 from the nearest storm sewer. As far as dead fish, the Native Americans put a dead fish in the hole with the seeds to promote growth. Now we have a refrigerant, making a chemical fertelizer, resulting in all natural fertelizer. Talk about a reaction. I think you can clean you windows with ammonia cleaner but don't clean your sink or toilet with it When we used to clean out the chicken coup, we used to dump it in the pond for the fish to eat. We were told it was really good for them. My first exposure to high levels of ammonia was cleaning out the chicken house and come to think about it every time Dad said I had to do it, it did kind of frost my butt.

[Grizzly]

Hi Guys.
My understanding of the situation within the U.K. at least. Is that it is perfectly acceptable to pour ammonia saturated water over a suitable solid flat surface. ie. The Car park near the plant room. Allowing the ammonia to evaporate naturally.
But not without due consideration as to wether there are any drains or culverts where you could accidently introduce the Ammonia into the drainage
system. (Totally illegal)
Obviouslly you also have to consider the movement of vehicles and people withtin this area.
Simply put most of the dairies and cold stores I work at Have their own effluent plant or drainage holding tanks. This takes a lot of pressure off!
cheers Steve
ps why add anything other than good old fasioned water and copious ammounts to nuetralise the ammonia solution further? If necessarry!

[Zamman]

I agree with Brian. Whenever we have purged into water it has been left to evaporate. We dont deal with substantial amounts though.

[conrad]

as they say down the hatch

There is a case going here in Norway at the moment government vs Teknotherm.

One of their engineers dumped 250 kg of liquid ammonia into a 1000 liter tank of water.

The tank was later tipped over and after some time the ammonia/water mix ran through the groundwater and into a fishing stream/river, killing lots of fish.

The engineer was heavily fined, and so was the company... (they are still fighting in the court).

Another engineer at teknotherm was also fined $500 for using a bucket of water to absorb the ammonia gas from a piston compressor and later pouring the water out on the ground.

In the court, they are treating the ammonia/water spill with the same rules as if you had dumped 250 kgs of mercury and similar substanses...

Now, of course you shouldnt dump ammonia into a river like that, but it was an accident... ok shart happens.

If the state wins it will set the presedence that ammonia is to be treated as highly toxic to the environment and lots of rules will be made, making customers flee from ammonia and find other more environmental damageing refrigerants... after all, ammonia is a natural product.


The law says noting about it being illegal to vent ammonia into the atmosphere, and if they are gonna hang me for using water to absorb it, be it in the ocean or in a bucket of water... and since I have yet to see a commercial available reclaiming unit for ammonia, well from now on I'll be the only guy working in the building or ship as I'll put on my mask, open the valves and go about my way.


any thoughts?

[conrad]

Does anyone know a formula for calculating how much water is in the ammonia system.

[TXiceman]

If you want to burn or oxidize ammonia, contact John Zink Company in Tulsa, OK, USA. They build flare systems and oxidizers.

Ammonia will burn in the presence of a flame, but will not sustain a flame.

As for how much ammonia a given amount of water can hold, it is temperature and pressure dependent. There are charts for this information.

Ken