VRF opinions and a little Rant!

evening!

Just wanted to gauge some sort of opinion.

Maybe its just me but my personal opinion of VRF systems is not very good, every system we have come across just seems to be a pain in the back side especially when tracing for leaks.

It seems a little silly with all the regs being battered on to us to have 40kg of refrigerant chundering around a building in one system with about 4 million flare connections, im yet to come across a system with adequate zone valves/acess fittings, i understand the argument against these:

Engineers forgetting to open valves after service work completed.
More Brazed joints.
More cost at install.

Finding a tiny leak on a VRF with 20 indoor units would be far easier if we could isolate the condenser and 4 sections and pressure test individually, without cutting into the system and fitting new fittings to do this.
Pressure drops would be much more noticeable over less period of time.

Ban flare connections.............


Moan Over!:p

Fair comment but as usual it all comes down to cost.

Who pays for the extra fittings and someone is bound to say that you don't need them because they do a superb install. ;)

It is all down to the standard if installation.
Plenty of nitrogen when brazing, proper strength and leak test, then a triple vac.

I'm a ducter ;)(with a few clever tools) and i have never had a problem with gas leaks yet.

In fact i have never had one yet on one of my installs.

Eggs

a flair point but as said by brain and eggs,its quality of install and cost,many leaks ive had on VRF systems have been straight forward one's on flares or at the condenses but ive had a few nightmares on brazed joints above solid ceilings ect ect i think it all comes down to good practice a job thrown in on the cheep will cause problems a job were a conscientious team have been there wont just my 2 pence worth

Fit Henry Ball valves with a schreader connection on part number 937203 3/8 HENRY SCHRADER BALL VALVE 937203 for instance?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prince Vaillant

Fit Henry Ball valves with a schreader connection on part number 937203 3/8 HENRY SCHRADER BALL VALVE 937203 for instance?

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And where would one obtain such a Henry Ball valve with a schreader connection on part number 937203 3/8 HENRY SCHRADER BALL VALVE 937203, pray?


Don't tell us - I've guessed it ....... you sell 'em!

Shame on you for sneaking in a quickie advert.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argus

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And where would one obtain such a Henry Ball valve with a schreader connection on part number 937203 3/8 HENRY SCHRADER BALL VALVE 937203, pray?


Don't tell us - I've guessed it ....... you sell 'em!

Shame on you for sneaking in a quickie advert.


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Would that be the same place where i have still not had a quote back after 3 weeks of waiting?
I hope their back up is better than their sales team.

Eggs

Most of my work is vrf in hotels each hotel is about 250 units so just think of the cost of fiting valves to all that!! what i would say is why have we still got flare nuts? with the f-gas should we not have weilded joints as that would cut down on leaks and instal time.

havent they got rid of flares in holland or am i talking crap?

i agree get rid of them

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argus

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And where would one obtain such a Henry Ball valve with a schreader connection on part number 937203 3/8 HENRY SCHRADER BALL VALVE 937203, pray?


Don't tell us - I've guessed it ....... you sell 'em!

Shame on you for sneaking in a quickie advert.


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I know well i keep trying to help but if all i am going to get is stick when i do, i will stop bothering. Yet its ok for others too. Oh well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdunc2301

havent they got rid of flares in holland or am i talking crap?

i agree get rid of them

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Well, yes and no…. so to speak.

What they have prohibited in Holland for many years now is conventional pipe flares – the type of flares joints that distort the end of the copper tube.

What the Dutch have NOT banned is the use of mechanical joints. So, you can still use a conventional 45 degree flare connector that are on almost all small units. To comply with the Dutch rules, the connection must be made with a brass fitting with a matching nut and a collar that the pipe is first brazed into. The joint is then assembled with a copper gasket that should be replaced every time that it is disturbed.


Incidentally, if you read the European Safety standard, EN 378, they have stopped short of an outright use ban of flares and just ‘discourage’ their use.



I agree with you that flares should be phase out because, often poorly done or repeatedly over tightened, they are a source of unwanted leaks. At the same time get rid of Schrader valves as another source of unnecessary leaks.



I believe that one of the major supermarkets in the UK has already banned the use of flare joints – no names, but every little helps.




.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdunc2301

evening!

Just wanted to gauge some sort of opinion.

Maybe its just me but my personal opinion of VRF systems is not very good, every system we have come across just seems to be a pain in the back side especially when tracing for leaks.

It seems a little silly with all the regs being battered on to us to have 40kg of refrigerant chundering around a building in one system with about 4 million flare connections, im yet to come across a system with adequate zone valves/acess fittings, i understand the argument against these:


Engineers forgetting to open valves after service work completed.
More Brazed joints.
More cost at install.

Finding a tiny leak on a VRF with 20 indoor units would be far easier if we could isolate the condenser and 4 sections and pressure test individually, without cutting into the system and fitting new fittings to do this.
Pressure drops would be much more noticeable over less period of time.

Ban flare connections.............


Moan Over!:p

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In the maritime industry we can not use flare fittings and I agree they are a pain in the arse.

I had a Toshiba VRF system newly installed by others, which kept having LP problems in it's first year of use. Take out the R410a, find it has lost a few kilos, can't find the leak, even pressure test at 38 bar overnight. :rolleyes:

Try this a few times, then install refrigerant dye and run for 6 weeks. Found that out of 14 indoor units, I had 22 flare connections showing a very small trace of dye. When I opened them up and cut them off to re-flare them, I found they had been badly flared and over-tightened. (you could shave with the edges) :(

Carefully de-burred them, flared them using an eccentric torque-controlled flaring tool (great invention) and no problems since then. :)

BAN FLARE CONNECTIONS!!!!

I love flare nuts, speedy little chaps.:)

Time is money:D.

Splits are down 50%+ and VRF is down 43% this year.Can you honestly see them banning flares when they know it will cost them even more sales??