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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.
Nice info, and something we can make sense of (as we have done with ecocube data).
Load is load, that is one thing that can be judged on the site, so presume all is equal. Why is there saving!
The defrost first, I think that the forced draft nature and the longer dwell times (off periods covers this) and yes the ecocube gives longer period between on and off (for high and medium temp) low temp, I am also struggling, the only expalanation is that if you a multiple evaps in each room that some moisture is passing from coil to coil (vapour pressure) , The large difference in cycle time will aid in defrost for high and medium temps, not alot of argument at this point
As far as the screw loading and unloading. I suggest that the previous method of room(s) control and the influence of the dead legs (off cycles), did cause considerable issues with control of the PID loop, I would suggest that your data indicates considerable over and undershooting of suction and the corresponding changes in discharge pressure. Yes with many room cycling rapidly, your load is going up and down like whores draws. The ecocube of course dampened the cycle rate, which allows your suction controller, to stabilize the system. What you have said makes sense. The ecocube has shown you that you did have failings in the old control method, Because our larger system are controlled by SCADA and PLC, most systems have run on/anti cycle timers in place, to cover this exact scenario, but not for the direct energy saving that you see but just for stability of a system. sort of a similar result coming from 2 different directions.
If you do not have the control options that that are common here, just a simple stat, then this well be a good option for your application. It would be nice to know, what the air temps are with the eco cube in place. This is really the data that is missing (before and after, in the same location as the ecocube) With large rooms fluctuations should not be as big as with little rooms, basic fundamentals, "thermal mass"
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers
Just change your dead band to 4 degrees, same thing really
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.
Great info?.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.
Let me review operation of your plant regarding to energy efficiency.
1. Operating screw compressors below 50% is very inefficient. I don't know type of your compressors, but it is better to reduce speed of the compressor down to minimum 20-30Hz than use slide valve.
2. It isn't clear for me why you have swing of the load if you have evaporator fan VFDs. Probably, something wrong with the settings. To minimize swing, you should increase suction pressure. It is better for the efficiency especially for the plants with evaporator fan VFDs.
3. Running evap. fans nonstop it is bad idea. First they use energy. Second they release this energy in the cold room as parasitic refrigeration load. To remove this load, additional energy is required.
3. Probably, you over defrosted evaporators before. Right now you cut defrosting, but it is nothing to do with endocube. By the way maximum run time shouldn't be greater than 48 Hrs. Minimal positive effect to run it longer, sometimes even negative effect. If you have a doubt, I can show the numbers.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.
I don't understand this statement. You put hot gas in the coil. Why to load compressor? High stage or low stage compressor? Until load removed. What is this load? Why it should be removed? Where did you get this formula? Can you give us one example?
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Gentlemen im going to call it a night. Ive got a date with a fes shaftseal in the moning. Nice sharing thoughts with you
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Well it was nice to see someone else has seem similar results and wanted to get stuck in with their more in depth explanation. Sometimes you wonder if you should keep your mouth shut and not type your thoughts on these threads. BUT I DID, and lets be honest the banter has been quite good fun to see everyone point of view. :D Servicefiter562 I would like to here more on what results you have had. We are mainly working on commercial Walk-ins and not larger plant. from what you have shared I have now got more information myself for some of the larger facilities we do work for. if this is actually doing what we are seeing and you are currently seeing, this could be a massive breakthrough in both the energy saving and food safety sectors for refrigeration
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
Well it was nice to see someone else has seem similar results and wanted to get stuck in with their more in depth explanation. Sometimes you wonder if you should keep your mouth shut and not type your thoughts on these threads. BUT I DID, and lets be honest the banter has been quite good fun to see everyone point of view. :D Servicefiter562 I would like to here more on what results you have had. We are mainly working on commercial Walk-ins and not larger plant. from what you have shared I have now got more information myself for some of the larger facilities we do work for. if this is actually doing what we are seeing and you are currently seeing, this could be a massive breakthrough in both the energy saving and food safety sectors for refrigeration
What!
It is a piece of plastic covering a temperature sensor!
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
So i'm going to throw a steak in the fry pan soon. Would it be economical to let the electric fry pan regulate it's own off cycles on pan temperature, or re-route the pans probe to read the meat's core temperature?
Two things come to mind. The outside of the steak will be charcoal, and the innermost, probe regulated area will be fine. Thermal conductivity comes to mind, and so does Gordon Ramsay. Would he, or any of us accept paying for a steak in that condition?
Same goes for food preservation. When cooling is required to keep within bacterial growth parameters, refrigeration is needed now, not 20 minutes later in 33 degree C ambient. (Forced defrost times has to be tolerated to get the system working again, at peak efficiency. ( freezer systems, and selected coldrooms.)
My focus is on coldrooms and the delayed off cycles and extended run cycle with this probe insulating device.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frank
Unless they are using proxy servers, they appear to be on opposite side of the world, 1 in Florida and 1 in Australia....at least that's what the IP addresses say.
Both have location of USA or united states thou... I don't need any convincing because it's extremely obvious this is a farce, but I doubt either of them set up their account in USA 5 days ago and have moved to oz since...
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
What a load of crap! As mentioned by Mad Fridgie the load is the load, putting a probe in an "engineered" plastic casing does not change the characteristics that make up the load - product specific heats, density, infiltration, thermal losses through insulation, etc.
All that ends up happening is the thermal lag means an overshoot on both the warm side and the cold side and the room/case temp fluctuates massively. I don't give two hoots if it gets an off cycle defrost because the cycle is longer - on the flip side the sst is lower (meaning more energy consumption if its a single system), or the cycle is increased dramatically if it happens to have an EPR fitted to limit the SST.
You get nothing for nothing and this is a perfect example of pulling the wool over people's eyes using false logic and selective engineering.
The way this thread was started and the posts by the two clowns with a vested interest in the product stinks.
The only way this thing saves energy is because the types of customers using it (Sodexo, Nandos, McDonalds, etc) have such poorly commissioned systems that it can have an affect. They are better off finding an engineer/fridge mechanic that can actually commission a system properly and get the same energy savings results plus some longer equipment life spans from better operation and maintenance.
http://www.allmaria.com/dastardly/images/blsht.jpg
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
I am pleased to see that from another engineer with years of experience has shed some light on what I said I was seeing. I was only putting my point across and some of you shot me down and other started to get some understanding. We are all in the same industry, and some of us don't like change, but fact is fact, and those who answer these threads and defend what I said in the first place I thank you for supporting my claim.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day
As stated by many we have used these devices before (not called ecocube), there is nothing new in the concept. Even though you did give better data, the data is still limited, and with what was given.
You or the ecocubes fans have given, no scientific or engineering basis for the improvement made.
I and other have given detailed descriptions of what happens, with the request for you all to prove our principle wrong or alternative to our principles.
As far as your set up goes, if the third party engineer excepted you sales without engineering proof, then I need not say any more.
I am no expert on US based NH3 systems, I know Segie has a lot of expertise in this field. So when he questions, I have no choice but to look. Convince him, then you are on track to convince others.
This was your thread
"The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers"
You state during a normal control, that he coil is not draining, so if the coil is not draining, it still must be refrigerating, yet the thermostat cuts back in, Does this not show you a probe position problem. "Are you measuring "air off" "
Prove the principle using engineering and science.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day
O.K. we are obviously divided over the insulating of an air temperature sensor. Going back to basics,.. air temp sensors are positioned in the warmest, and closest positions to the evaporator. All things being equal, why does the cooling process resume? The sensor detects a rise in air temperature. Why this happens? Ingress of heat through insulation, product, door openings... everything that does not mimic ambient,( outside) temperatures. [ assuming outdoor temps are higher than what we require]
If we wanted to delay compressor restart, we would use a simple delay timer. Set it for 5 minutes, or 10, in the extreme. While the product loses temperature waiting for insulated sensor to signal compressor restart, nothing is going to shield the product from continual heat gain... What is going to restore stability? What savings can there be achieved when product needs to be chilled to the origional required temperature as now, compressor has to work longer to get to that specific set point.
Data logger set for continual monitoring, at two minute intervals before, and after the device is fitted with a condom, will be the evidence i need for a product safe environment.. Mike.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months.
A product simulator is just one person/company's attempt at monitoring the core temperature of a certain type of product - nothing special and they have been around in differing forms for years there, so yes I have tested this before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers.
Quite possibly, I have dealt with quite a few energy engineers myself and they sell energy savings not food chain compliance. Most site engineers aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed now are they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified.
How can you be sure of this, were the limits of the plant pushed prior to installation of endocube? Was the room temp raised? Were larger differentials explored? I could go on but I think I'm talking to someone with a financial interst in a black box so I'm not going to waste my breath too much longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate.
Data can be manipulated to achieve desired results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day
It's a load of crap. It's laughable that 3 different users all pop up within days of each other spruking the virtues of this most wonderous black box that houses a probe. All of your posts, along with two other endocube fans, have all been in this thread. Got each other on speed dial? Or just like using proxy servers?
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
I think that it was good campaign to promote useless(to save energy) product.
Optimization of the refrigeration plant operation is the best way to save energy. We can improve condensing pressure, suction pressure, defrosting, reduce refrigeration load by preventing over cooling and etc. However, it can be done without endocube. This is the reason that endocube guys can't explain their energy savings. I have one suggestion to them. You've forgot about major energy saving measure. This is lowering condensing pressure. Very often it can give us up to 50% of total energy savings. Just tell everybody around that you were able to lower condensing, because of endocube. You know how to do that.
I have advice for servicefiter562. Don't believe in magic devices. They just don't exist. Become member of IIAR (international institute ammonia refrigeration). You can get many good technical papers about energy savings in industrial refrigeration.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
My concern is not does it do what they or not, But the totally dishonest nature in which it is marketed, and the effect it may have on industry as whole and the effect it may have on futures sales of little black boxes that may have proven and engineered benefits. (what ever they maybe)
Also my concern on the cold chain from sales to home to use. For the product to do as it claims, you must have a larger swing in air temp, if the swing is on the positive side, then surface deterioration must be occurring. This may not been in the short term "at the point of sale", but more in the usable life at home. Either the product has to be used more quickly, or becomes useless, or the home refrigerator need to become colder to compensate for the increased growth that has already occurred. So even if the energy saving were to be made, there would not be any actual saving made, on shifting the point of energy use. Which has absolutely no benefit to the environment.
I wish i knew who this large coldstore was own by. I would love to tell them that they are being hoodwinked,with false sales data, and manipulated performance data.
I am however willing to change my view if someone can show engineering proof of the claims!
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Sergei ,First off i am not promoting the cube, i simpley put the information out there for people to discuss. As far as your comments about plant operations all of the items you listed are alreary in place, your right it all was done with out the cube. I dont belive in magic devices thats why i tested it. So with a plant operating with all you have listed plus drives on compressors and condensers plus load shedding adding the cube allowed enhanced operation. End result 10% to 15% reduction plant in plant k.w. Just so you know i am a member of IIAR-20 years / RETA member-20 years /RSES 25 years and all offer great technical support
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
Sergei ,First off i am not promoting the cube, i simpley put the information out there for people to discuss. As far as your comments about plant operations all of the items you listed are alreary in place, your right it all was done with out the cube. I dont belive in magic devices thats why i tested it. So with a plant operating with all you have listed plus drives on compressors and condensers plus load shedding adding the cube allowed enhanced operation. End result 10% to 15% reduction plant in plant k.w. Just so you know i am a member of IIAR-20 years / RETA member-20 years /RSES 25 years and all offer great technical support
Just don't tell me that endocube reduced rate of frost formation.
One simple example. Assume that during 1 week of operation 1000 kg of moisture went into the freezer through the doors. You should do defrosting to melt the frost and drain 1000 kg of water outside. You claim that endocube helps you get only 100 kg of frost on the coils. Where is going the rest 900 kg? Next week another 900 kg. One way or another you should remove this moisture from the freezer.
"..items you listed are already in place". Optimum condensing pressure for winter operation is 60-70 psig. Are you going to tell me that your plant operated at this condensing pressure all winter? To maximize energy efficiency of the refrigeration plant, you should do 3 steps. First. You should identify energy savings measures. Second. You should know optimum set points of these measures. Third. You should know how to implement these set points. If you done that, items are in place.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
servicefiter562
Sergei ,First off i am not promoting the cube, i simpley put the information out there for people to discuss. As far as your comments about plant operations all of the items you listed are alreary in place, your right it all was done with out the cube. I dont belive in magic devices thats why i tested it. So with a plant operating with all you have listed plus drives on compressors and condensers plus load shedding adding the cube allowed enhanced operation. End result 10% to 15% reduction plant in plant k.w. Just so you know i am a member of IIAR-20 years / RETA member-20 years /RSES 25 years and all offer great technical support
If you not promoting the cube, send all back bar one. Use a air sensor placed next to the cube, use the cube on/off as reference point, compare to air temp sensor, remove cube, adjust stat (set point and diff) to mimic cube.
On another site, it stated that there was limits on air temp within rooms, so air stats had to be close control, the cube keeps the same close control, so giving the impression that the air temp does not rise. BUT it must.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
My opinion is that endocube is beneficial to the refrigeration equipment since the time between START/STARTs are enlarged but it not beneficial to the product. Without endocube the surface and depth temperature is lower than with the endocube.
It's good to "cover" the real air fluctuations due to opening doors and defrosts and the client may be happier but the reality is another.
At first sign I confess that it looked a good idea but then after I reflect I have changed my mind.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
I think those who have tested the technology have seen results. Those who seems to duck around the idea the technology saying it doesn't, cannot comment unless they test it themselves. It seems many want to come up with their own conclusions. But in my own experience, you cannot make a judgement unless you have satisfied your assumption. So how engineer who are skilled in the industry can make direct comments without doing so is bizzare.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
I think those who have tested the technology have seen results. Those who seems to duck around the idea the technology saying it doesn't, cannot comment unless they test it themselves. It seems many want to come up with their own conclusions. But in my own experience, you cannot make a judgement unless you have satisfied your assumption. So how engineer who are skilled in the industry can make direct comments without doing so is bizzare.
Most who have commented have used similar products before, the principle has not changed. So we can comment, so not so bizzare, but before we just ignore it, we also have to give an engineering reasons for our dismissal, of a product and/or concept. This has been given, and to date no engineering based info has been given to counter our claims.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
I think those who have tested the technology have seen results. Those who seems to duck around the idea the technology saying it doesn't, cannot comment unless they test it themselves. It seems many want to come up with their own conclusions. But in my own experience, you cannot make a judgement unless you have satisfied your assumption. So how engineer who are skilled in the industry can make direct comments without doing so is bizzare.
What is the true of this poduct? Is that it allows the compressor(s) running longer without stop. OKAY, it's logical
Is that it allows the compressor(s) keeping longer without stop. OKAY, it's logical.
That allows to the core product be maintained aprox. at the desired temperature. OKAY, it's logical.
BUT as we approach to the surface product this one will feel a higher temperature. I personally prefer to have a lower surface temperature on the core to achieve a lower temperature on the surface.
With a conventional probe I can up the set point of the controller and increase the differential.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
I have to say I do like , the marketing.
No proof given of principle.
How do you know if you have not tried one?
So every refrig engineer, mechanic, tech, just gets one for testing. Regardless if it works or it does not.
HOW MANY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WOULD HE MAKE.
No need for guarantees as it classed as a trial.
Or even better, he can do the install and the testing, and give you the results you think you want the hear.
Genius! I wish I had the balls, to push such a concept.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Not at all, NO FREE TRIAL offer, just cannot stand the fact other engineers are dragging something down we have had success with. We had the balls to try and only for the fact a customer had heard about it through a magazine in Canada about a company call Pizza Pizza who installed the product in over 100 restaurants, and had an overall 15% energy saving and a 50% reduction in compressor starts. So that is why we tested it on there behalf. And the product doesn't measure core temperatures, but 15mm below the surface in line with food temperature monitoring.
Maybe in six weeks, six months or even six years you will be testing this product or something similar, but at some point your customers will also be looking for food temperature monitoring instead of air temperatures. Please after speaking directly to the company, this product was originally designed as a food monitoring application, and the reduction in compressor starts and energy savings were stumbled upon as a secondary bonus.
"Remember those who bang the drum the loudest get heard"
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
Not at all, NO FREE TRIAL offer, just cannot stand the fact other engineers are dragging something down we have had success with. We had the balls to try and only for the fact a customer had heard about it through a magazine in Canada about a company call Pizza Pizza who installed the product in over 100 restaurants, and had an overall 15% energy saving and a 50% reduction in compressor starts. So that is why we tested it on there behalf. And the product doesn't measure core temperatures, but 15mm below the surface in line with food temperature monitoring.
Maybe in six weeks, six months or even six years you will be testing this product or something similar, but at some point your customers will also be looking for food temperature monitoring instead of air temperatures. Please after speaking directly to the company, this product was originally designed as a food monitoring application, and the reduction in compressor starts and energy savings were stumbled upon as a secondary bonus.
"Remember those who bang the drum the loudest get heard"
Now you are making some sense, the product is excellent for food temperature monitoring and temp indication dampening, as shown by many who have used all sorts, including a bit of gunk. And many clients have such products installed.
The anti cycling of course is a benefit, but this benefit has been known and used for "O" so many years, in the old days, it was standard to have large diffs on stats and pressure switches, which gave average acceptable core temps. But with the need for close control (real or not), is being implemented, yes short cycling occurs, but nowadays many instruments have anti-cycle times as standard, to reduce, not eliminate some of the starts per hour.
The refrigeration industry in general terms is there to ensure the food quality and life, is kept as and long as possible, If some one could find an exceptable system, that does the same job as refrigeration then they would likely use it.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
There is the area of genetically modified foods, as well as processed meats. Faster ways to grow all food types, then the methods farmers use on livestock to make them produce more milk, or bigger, heavier cattle and pigs, goats whatever, with what they are fed. One scenario leads to another. Are these products we see every day on refrigerated shelves or deep frozen in island freezers, likely to deteriorate more quickly with a wider variation of air temperature, when the thermostat sensor is in one of these endocubes?
What bothers me is the ever-present, and mutating bacteria and viruses. Call me old school with the care i take of my customers livelyhood, but i put my faith in maintaining the best possible method of preservation available today. Precise air temps.
Sea food must be one of the worst products to keep in check. Limited life span and can easily conceal Salmonella, if the coldroom air temperature is not kept within >< temperature. Doesn't matter any more if someone ends up in hospital because a retailer attempted to save some money on running costs of his refrigeration... He's lost a customer or two (hundred) and gone to the wall. Should the retailer/wholesaler go down, who will be next in line?
As "Mad" mentioned, "Close control"
Until there is solid, unquestionable methods of maintaining, or should i say, safely preserving products, then i will continue with the tried and true practice of today....Mike. :)
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Air temperatures rise much faster than food temperatures. but it isn't reading core temperatures. they say 10mm below the surface temperature. BIG difference wouldn't you agree.
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
The price of snake oil in USD/L?
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Re: Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!
Well it seems we have all sparked enough interest however negative or positive for the company to advertise on this site.