Re: Refrigerants for Sale
hey DaBit, what do you guys use water as refrigerant for?
rccarps2, champ - have you ever seen the picture of the world taken at night time? theres only one country lit up like a christmas tree lol.
we cant buy r12 here anymore, not for years - and our phaseout for r22 is 2010 not 2030 - we must reclaim old gas and account for every gram of refrigerant both recovered and installed into new/old systems after repairs etc. if we cannot do this apon audit onspot fine - if the auditer picks up our r22 bottle for instance and says how much gas is left? we shouldnt have to weigh it to know.
already good quality a/c systems are going towards so called greener alternatives here such as 407c (daikins) and 410a the latter which seems to work great. my only problem is where does all this end? will the newer refrigerants of today be banned in 20-30 years for making birds fly north for winter or be found to be the cause of kangaroos growing 3 legs?
but serious champ, dont go giving yourself the nod of approval because of your justifications - and really you had better move out of your glass house before you start throwing stones. the actions of minoritys sadly get projected to appear to be the way of the masses today, especially with the US media... its about time as a country you forgot about the dollars and got some more cents.
Re: Refrigerants for Sale
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
hey DaBit, what do you guys use water as refrigerant for?
rccarps2, champ - have you ever seen the picture of the world taken at night time? theres only one country lit up like a christmas tree lol.
we cant buy r12 here anymore, not for years - and our phaseout for r22 is 2010 not 2030 - we must reclaim old gas and account for every gram of refrigerant both recovered and installed into new/old systems after repairs etc. if we cannot do this apon audit onspot fine - if the auditer picks up our r22 bottle for instance and says how much gas is left? we shouldnt have to weigh it to know.
already good quality a/c systems are going towards so called greener alternatives here such as 407c (daikins) and 410a the latter which seems to work great. my only problem is where does all this end? will the newer refrigerants of today be banned in 20-30 years for making birds fly north for winter or be found to be the cause of kangaroos growing 3 legs?
but serious champ, dont go giving yourself the nod of approval because of your justifications - and really you had better move out of your glass house before you start throwing stones. the actions of minoritys sadly get projected to appear to be the way of the masses today, especially with the US media... its about time as a country you forgot about the dollars and got some more cents.
Here we go again, maybe you should do a little research before you go making assumptions.
Take a look at this link and try to re-think your statement. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ima...2_dmsp_big.jpg So you can take your "lol" and throw it out the window....
In the United States R-22 production/importation will cease in 2020. No new equipment that uses R-22 will be produced past 2010. The change over to the Alternatives of R-22 (407C/410A) has been almost non-existent beyond large commercial systems. Due to patent laws in the United States Dupont and Honeywell are able to artificially hold the prices of the Alternatives above the international markets average price. Since R-22 is roughly 25% of the cost of 404a pound for pound in the United States, R-22 will continue to be the dominant Refrigerant.
Even when 2010 and then 2020 arrives there still will be an enormous production of R-22 worldwide. Right now China and India produce almost all of the R-22 for the world markets. Considering those contries still produce R-12 in high volumes I doubt that R-22 will be any different once it is banned in United States and Europe.
I am not saying that the US market wont embrace 407 and 410, but until 2009 when the patents run out for Dupont and Honeywell and importation of the alternatives is allowed, the cost basis favors R-22.
I totally support the development of new "Enviornmentally Friendly" Refrigerants, but they carry very large price tags compared to the standards of the Industry, and in an economy you will not be able to justify a enormous price increase due to small enviornmental gains.
You will most likely see a shift towards R-134a once R-22 is phased out. That will reduce high conversion costs of systems due to pressure increases of the Alternatives.
As far as throwing rocks in my glass house? You need to realize that an economy is based upon costs, supplies, and demand. I dont really care how much everyone says we need to switch to cleaner refrigerants. Unless the change to a better refrigerant is cost effective, no rightful economy in the world will support a change to something new with costs ranging from 10, 20, 30, 40 times more than the original system. With the exception being changes in the Laws governing that specific country.
My justifications all provide me more enough reason to sleep well at night......
Re: Refrigerants for Sale
Hi Guys,
rccarps2 is not wrong. There is a big demand for R-12 in the third world, it is manufacture in China all the time and being used widely. Its one of the best refrigerant man kind has invented and I don't think that anyone can come up with anything like it.
Within the next 10 to 15 years the biggest economy power in the world will be China and a lot of things that we take for granted, will change dramatically.
I sleep good at night like Peter and rccarps2, but one day I will wake up and all the roads signs, will have a Chinese translation.
They suck all the material from the rest of the world and the quality is rapidly improving.
Those who want to survive, will have to cooperate with them or disappear from the economic map.
I have met with a delegation from China just a month ago, they came here to learn about desert irrigation and fish growing in the desert.
They have refused to discuss anything about China and refused to answer any question.
So personally, I don't thing R-12 will ever disappear from our planet, on the contrary, I expect it to make a comeback.
Time will tell if I was wrong.
Chemi :)
Re: Refrigerants for Sale
R12 is a great refrigerant, but I don't see a way for it to be compatible with a capitalist world. If used frugally and recovered properly, it would present little threat to the ozone layer. However, in our world, it is too easy for people to profit at the expense of the ozone layer. I cannot see a way that it can be used responsibly - there are too many people who would sacrifice the long term future for short term gains.