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Anyone had any experience with additives such as Zerol Ice or Fridgi-tech. Both claim to improve the lubircity of refrigerant oil, thus saving energy(money).
Unless some miraculous product has been discovered, I was always of the mind that there are only two things that should be in a system- refrigerant and oil.
Best regards...
Quote:
I was always of the mind that there are only two things that should be in a system- refrigerant and oil.
and thats about answeres the question right there.
Only way to improve the oil is go out and buy the highest quality of oil that is right for the aplication.
Hi mojopt,
How are things down there?
I would not recommend any oil additive that was not approved by a compressor manufacturer. There are a lot of people/firms selling snake oil.
We recently had another RE member who found this out.
If someone wants to save money during operation, they should make sure the condenser is clean, etc.
That will save more energy than improving the oil lubricity.
I would stick with your answer.
Take care.
Hello Mojopt,
I am the member who found out that it was an terrible waste of money ( alot) and time. They had a good sell so the boss bought it.....Lots of promises with that stuff. I wouldnt waste time on it.
Thanks for the unsolicited testimonial giovanni. :D
with all the replys I've been getting it feels good to answer a question US Iceman
Couldn't find anything on Fridgi tech, but the Zerol Ice does seem to have some claims, doesn't it? www.zerolice.com Not sure the reduction in running current could be purely due to better lubrication, unless the oil is thinner and the comprssor spins more easily. There are some interresting photos in the Testing section, a lot of copper plating!
Anyway, product-bashing aside, I'm with Pony/Iceman. Oil manufacturers spend a lot of time and trouble on their products, the odds of finding something you just lob in and it all works so much better are not good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Rod
A lovely bit of copper plating in most of the pics.
Antway, it's academic. This ZEROL Ice stuff may not be street legal in the UK because, according to the MSD, the propellant is chlorinated.
(Clorinated propellants are banned here)
I just looked at the Zerol Ice website Johnny Rod posted. By golly you're right there is a substantial amount of copper plating on the samples.
Now if I was slightly cynical I might ask where this came from.
The test procedure said they use this...
Which in my opinion is a sure way to have copper plating form. If the compressor were tested under similar conditions, then I would suspect a similar finding in any metal part exposed to this same environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Zerol Ice website
So... If you wanted to compare two compressors, one without the additive and one with, that might make a compelling story. I don't think I could buy into it though.
In fair defense of new technology though I am aware of a process where metal bearings are impregnated with a compound to improve bearing life and reduced wear.
Another interesting fact from:
If the vapor pressure of the propellant is different than the refrigerant the propellant would be the same as introducing non-condensable vapor into the system. Plus a potential contaminant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Josiah Sodd
Copeland will not provide warranty coverage of any compressor if an additive is used. That to me is the answer.
I've used Zerol Ice for R22 systems and its brother Ice32 for R134 systems and have had great success with both. Think about it why would a compressor manufacturer tell you to put something in their compressor that would make it last twice as long. Thats not what companies want, they want you to keep coming back to buy replacement compressors, it keeps them in business. Its easy to sit back and say something will not work, but until you get out there in the field and put it to the test you really don't know. There is a auto compressor manufacture who now puts Ice32 in all of its compressors its Four Seasons.
Hi everyone!
I can ensure that the oils approved by manifacturer have already anti-wearing additives, tested and therefore approved with comparative analysis.
Do not even add any of those leak detection stuff (green, red) you never now the chemical reaction with the oil components (unless approved).
Cheers
Every time we have a debate on oil its the same.
Why oh why would you want to put somthing in the compressor that did not come in the compressor from new.
I've said it before and i'll say it agian.
I don't care what it claims on the label if the compressor manufacturer wanted it in the compressor then he would put it in himself.
Right I'm not playing now.
LISTEN TO YOUR UNCLE TAZ.
DON'T PUT ANYTHING IN THE SYSTEM OTHER THAN GAS AND OIL (for or friends over the pond gas is refrigerant and not the stuff you put in your car, but don't start me on that.):mad::mad::mad:
Rant over.
taz takes a deep breath and throws a couple of :):) and a :p to eliviate any tension.
taz.
Just had a look on the zerol site, now correct me if i'm wrong but if it improves heat transfer as they claim the surely the suction pressures should go up and not down? If you have dropped the suction pressure a bit then i'm not surprised the run current has dropped too.
Also surely you'd measure the energy savings by comparing energy in verses energy moved and not just run current?
Hi Guys.
I agree with everyone else about adding additives to Oil. Although I did once have success in finding a troublesome leak in a large Cold Store Evaporator, 30ft in the air!
When the National Cold Store Group I used to work for decided. To change from Good Old Shell Clavus 68 Mineral Oil, to one of the Mobil Arctic Oils.
Their reasons for doing so made sence.
1) The oil was good for 20,000hrs runtime. (debateable but much longer between oil changes than the mineral was achieved)
2) The oil contained "cleaning agents" which over time flushes the system and gives cleaner pipework ect.)
3) The properties of the oil ment better oil return and reduced oil carry over.
Anyway all 35 stores changed to the newer oils.
Probably 18 months into the changeover, myself and a large number of my Colleagues. Met for a Engineers Meeting and whilst talking to each other. We began to realise that we had all been experiancing Similar number of increased Shaft Seal changes. It transpired that a consequence of the "cleaning" properties, was that the loosened crud damaged the "Optical" Faces of the shaft seals.
After probably 2 yrs everything was flushed and all was good. (If I have already mentioned this before I appologise).
Although I did end up arguing with an Engineering Manager that insisted I carry out an Compressor oil
change after 5,000 hrs. Because the 20yr old Compressor Manual reccomended oil changes at 5,000hrs.
He would not accept that the newer oils negated this. He was ex Motor Trade and could not grasp the concept of improved lubrication!
Even the type of synthetic oil used matters. A large Ammonia plant we look after was regularly carrying over 30, 40, 50, ltrs of oil a month. From a Sabroe Screw on Variable Speed Drive. Despite fitting larger Coellessor ( can't spell that word) filter.
The plant was sized for a minimum 1meg load 24/7.
When in reallity the load dropped right off at times.
When we changed from AP Oil to POE Oil (a lot more expencive) It made a huge differance. Nowadays we are lucky to get 5ltrs a month of oil out.
So what Oil you use can make a huge differance and not always where you would expect it!
Cheers Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ons/icon14.gif
I still think we need a dedicated forum for oils, it is a really big factor in a system deserving of its own from and sub foroms for the main oils!
Oh and wonderfull post grizzly, it is nice to get such valuable first hand experiance like that!
Hi, all :)
good thread...nice posts....not too much to add, but for sure.....
....I will always try to use oil/s recommended by compressor manufacturer....simple reason is they invest a lot of money and time in searching for oil type best matching their compressors and system.....no need headache trying to invent "warm water";) (our expression for something been invented)...
Best regards, Josip :)
The only additive that should be put into any compressor is add oil when it is low
the use of additives in lubrication oil is not new. The best example is what we seen if we open a compressor in the old days we saw a lot of carbon, today the most compressor are very clean. other change is the development of multi grade oils in the refrigeration. unfortunaly, most suppliers of oil looking only to the lubrication site of the specification. Not to the site of separation from oil and the refrigerant.
every additive , which offers it self in a variable item in the separation system and can therefore change the adjustment design or ca be reason for correct the balance in a compressorunit.
Best regards
Martin Wierbosch
I have used Refrigerant Oil Additives for years. There maybe some bad ones but the product I am familiar with have had nothing but great results. I have even had another tell me they tried it on a car AC unit and got a 17 degree drop. I have not see anyone getting less than a 5% savings using the ArtiKool product. As with all things there are quality products and those that don't work and I guess the same is true with PROA's. That is why I have never had negative results and everyone I know using the same product I use always see savings. I am sure there are other good PROA's out there, but based on what some say there are some bad ones as well. The bad products should not represent them all. This is true in shoes electronics, and many other products on the market as well as with PROA's it appears.
There are additive for engines, gas, etc. and there are many that work but I hear there are some that don't as well. The manufacturers do not have these additive installed, but you can get them and many of them work for you to install yourself. A PROA for air conditioning and refrigeration is no different. There is also studies and documentation out there to substantiate they work as well.
As for the manufacturers of compressors would use PROA if they worked is not true. I worked for a compressor manufacture and they make compressors as low a cost as possible. They will not do anything to increase the cost or to extend the life of the compressor. If the unit fails in 5-10 year is better than the unit lasting 20 years as they see it. You are going to buy another unit sooner.
Thanks for all.
just for the fact alone you had to spam the forum with a pic of a flag I now do not trust you at all! flag wavers tend to be the least bright!Quote:
Originally Posted by Odomis
I am simply telling what I have seen. Just because I have used ArtiKool does not mean there are not other brands that are possibly equally as good. That is the brand I am familiar with using is all. For me to speak about another product I know nothing about would not be bright at all. I take it you have used the product, or are you speaking from ignorance vs. my experience and education as an engineer to know how to take proper readings to see the savings truly achieved. Those are the facts and to what impression you might get of me means nothing in this forum. Facts and experiences are what people are interested in here. I hope others who have truly tried these products speak of their experiences so people can learn the truth about these product from those who have real experiences with them.