Automotive Air Conditioning

Do car garages have to be covered by 2079 to use R134a in vehicles?

Thanks Turbo.

‘Anyperson recovering or handling fluorinated gases including R134a the refrigerantused in automotive A/C systems must hold a nationally recognised qualification.It’s the law.’

The above has been extracted from the ProAuto website. I have no connection with this company, just found it via "Google".

Hi Guys.
Turbo you may have a good point there.
The way I read it (and it is not that obvious) 2079 covers working on systems over 3kg charge.
Sounds daft I know but I cannot find anything that says, to work on Mobile Air-con (Cars) you need 2079.

I may be wrong but I don't think the loophole has been closed yet.

Grizzly

Think there is a vehicle specific qualification just for mechanics but they can't work on fixed stuff. Our citb c&g etc thingies cover cars as well as fixed stuff.

Jon :)

307/2008 covers automotive
2079-11 or J11 covers all systems. Systems with less than 3kg charge are exempt from periodic leak checking but that is where the exeption ends, to work on any stationary refrigerant containing system you need to be certified to comply with at least 842/2006.
There is a lot of confussion around the 3kg charge the regs state that if you work on systems with more than 3kg you need to be 2079-11 or J11 certified, if you work on systems with less than 3kg you need to be 2079-12 or J12.

Thanks for the clarification Quality.
I think at this rate I am going to need to brush up on my maths!
So many combination of numbers to choose from.
Logically virtually all on this forum is going to need 2079-11 or J11.

So is a refrigerated truck or trailer Mobile or Stationary?
Grizzly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grizzly

So is a refrigerated truck or trailer Mobile or Stationary?
Grizzly

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I feel a silly answer coming on Grizzly; something to do with traffic lights etc. ;)

The way I read it, to handle refrigerants of any ammount you require a qualification. This includes putting on and/or removing gauges to a system. C&G 2078 has been superceeded by C&G 2079 and is no longer valid.

C&G 2079 cat 1 proves you can safetly and environmentally recover and recharge refrigeration systems as well as carry out pipe repairs properly to static equipment. It also allows you to handle refrigerants in respect of other equipment you are competant to service/maintain.

The 3kg (6kg if the system is hermetically sealed) rule concerns the requirement to have the system leak checked by a certified person at least once every 12 months. This leak checking can be carried out by a person who has C&G 2079 cat 4 and above.

Hi Reeferman.
Below is an Questions and Answers extract from the ACRIB website

I employ engineers who work on RAC Systems containing F gases – who needs re-training?
You must use only qualified personnel for installation, commissioning, service or other refrigerant handling activities on stationery RAC systems that use HFC or HCFC refrigerants. The qualifications that are acceptable in the interim period - CITB J01 and C&G 2078 - do not meet the new minimum standards set out in Commission Regulation 303/2008, but where individual hold these certificates issued before 9th March 2009 they are considered to be be valid until July 2011 to work on RAC containing F gases. The only exception is for those working on equipment with a refrigerant charge of less than 3 kg where there may also be the option to hold an in-house qualification or to apply for an interim certificate based on previous experience

Having read the above,
Which is what I based my comments on originally and why I am confused.

Does this imply that after July 2011 everyone has to have some form of 2079?

Or is there still a loophole?

Grizzly

Sorry to doubt those above.

I found this on the Defra site.
It would appear I have misunderstood.. Sorry!

Personnel Certification

After 4 July 2011 personnel wishing to undertake leak checking, installation, servicing and maintenance and
or recovery on stationary RAC systems containing or designed to contain F gases need to hold a full
qualification.

There are 4 different levels of certification which allow personnel to carry out different activities. The main ones are:

Category I

certificate holders may carry out all of the following activities for any size of RAC systems containing F gases - leakage
checking, refrigerant recovery, installation, maintenance and servicing. There are two Category I qualifications which are:

•

2079-11 City and Guilds Level 2 Award in F Gas and ODS Regulations: Category I

•

Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) J11 Category I – leak checking, recovery, installation, service and maintenance
of equipment

Category II

certificate holders may carry out refrigerant recovery, installation, maintenance and servicing, in relation to RAC
systems containing less than 3 kg of F gases (or less than 6 kg for systems that are hermetically sealed). Category II
certificate holders may also carry out leak checks on any plant provided that it does not entail breaking into the refrigeration
circuit containing F gases. There are two Category II qualifications which are:

•

2079-12 City and Guilds Level 2 Award in F Gas and ODS Regulations: Category II

•

Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) J12 Category II – installation, service and maintenance of equipment with a
charge of less than 3kg, (6kg if hermetically sealed) and leakage checking

Alternatively personnel may hold a full European qualification recognised under mutual recognition provisions.



Grizzly

Hi Turbo,
Automotive air conditioning is covered by EC307/2008 the MAC directive. It's a separate directive to the FGas regulations.

Mechanics need to complete City & Guilds 5101 Unit 1 (or equivalent) to handle R134a

Re Refrigerated trucks etc this is still a loop hole, every member state will instil it's own statutes but here's a quote directly from the EPA in Ireland (though it contains a quote from the European Commission)
"
We spoke a few weeks ago about the need or otherwise for f-gas qualification for mobile systems where they are on board trawlers, for example. I contacted the European Commission and I have included a copy of the Commission’s answer below:

The core measures of Regulation (EC) No 842/2006 (F-Gas Regulation), including those laid down in Article 3, concern stationary equipment. However, Article 4(3) would apply to fluorinated greenhouse gas containing equipment installed in transport modes , unless serving military operations. On the basis of this provision, the gases shall, to the extent that it is technically feasible and does not entail disproportionate cost, be recovered by appropriately qualified personnel to ensure their recycling, reclamation or destruction. For recovery from refrigeration and ac in transportation modes there are currently no requirements, at EU level, for such personnel (neither for companies) with the exception of personnel recovering F-Gases from air conditioning in passenger cars (see Commission Regulation 307/2008).

In other words, the leak checking requirements required under Art 3 relating to containment do not apply to non-stationary systems but the general provisions regarding qualifications etc apply to all systems, including mobile systems, in accordance with Art 4 relating to recovery.
"

Hope that helps

Of course what constitutes 'disproportionate costs' is anyone guess

... I suppose if you needed to get a submarine to the bottom of the ocean to reclaim it, or simply more than the client was willing to pay me...

Thanks for your input RSTC.
I guess there are still loopholes albeit moving ones!
That all makes for interesting reading and has answered my question.
Meaning ALL Moveing Transport except those designated Cars are exempt.
WOW!
Does anyone work at Container ports?
This has got to interest some of the Commercial Vehicle Guys?

Surely the sub would not be necessarry in International waters?

Grizzly

Grizzly

There is a loop hole, particularly for leak testing and company registration for transport refrigeration, but what the EC are saying is that if you are handling FGases you should be suitably qualified. I would like to see a test case.

I believe that the regulations are under review and AREA are looking to address this along with the importing of precharged condesors.

This should be of interest to the reefer lads.

Rules of the game are not so well defined around the globe. When my ticket was broken down into 7 specific sections from the 2 that was required, i found myself back in the classroom to brush up on auto a/c. Most of the guys were there for a two day vehicle a/c licence. Two days!.. I was there to get a piece of paper and photo I.D. so i could maintain full licence that covers everything except ammonia and now hydrocarbons. CO2, that may be next..Mike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeref

Rules of the game are not so well defined around the globe. When my ticket was broken down into 7 specific sections from the 2 that was required, i found myself back in the classroom to brush up on auto a/c. Most of the guys were there for a two day vehicle a/c licence. Two days!.. I was there to get a piece of paper and photo I.D. so i could maintain full licence that covers everything except ammonia and now hydrocarbons. CO2, that may be next..Mike.

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Mikeref

Did you forget about auto parts recyclers? they dont even need to do a training course, If a damaged vehicle rolls into their yard no training required to recover the gas. Of course they still need to pay for a license though.

The ARC claim auto A/C is far to technical, for a refrigeration and A/C tradesperson to work on:mad:, if that is the case why can a spray painter do a 2 day course to work on auto A/C, if it is so technical? Makes no sense.

I can also go into a car A/C wholesalers and order a heap of automotive components and install them into a boat. Thats exactly what many marine techs do.

Im confused.

Sign in Halford's in Dublin which says basically if you can put air in your tyres your can repair your car Air Conditioning. And goes on to sell cans of R134a which will (reportedly) fill your system 2 or 3 times.

Worrying

any thoughts from RE denizens?

Writing a separate MAC directive seems to have taken away a lot of the regulating bodies powers to enforce. Here in Sweden you CAN'T purchase small containers of R-134a anywhere like at UK Halfords. What I've seen is that anyone can purchase the small cans in the UK, but now there is a £10 deposit on each can, and they now have a "safety valve" installed.

The technical expertise of most of the DIY mechanics is limited to "connect the can to a hose with a little gauge, connect the hose to the lowside fitting on the car AC, then fill the AC until the gauge reads in the blue zone". Pratically all of those DIY cans are filled with R-134a plus a quantity of oil and "leak sealer". Seems like the makers just add the leak sealer to convince car owners to not waste their money on having the AC properly serviced. I have never seen a package of glue or adhesive where it says it's OK to use it on oily surfaces!

Not sure how the law actually works, and requires a business to be certified while any private person is free to purchase and install refrigerant so long as it's a car.