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Can anybody tell me why we are getting screwed over with refrigerant prices. Just been told another 50% increase in r404a and another 20% increase in r134a. That means in the last few months r404a has inreased by 40% then 45% and from 1st July another 50%. Also r134a has gone up from £5.65kg to £13.95kg and is going up another 20% 1st July. Criminal
Get your R134a from auto factors, much cheaper. As for prices think its a mix of f gas phase down and shortage of flourospar to make the refrigerants.
The production of high GWP refrigerants is being regulated
and reduced which means that what there is, is going to
get more and more expensive as it gets less and less.
Time to look for other options I think :)
Rob
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Hard to explain them increasing the price of low GWP refrigerants!
I completely agree with you, with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by hookster
I used to work for a wholesalers and have colleagues
who work in the gas production industry and I have
talked with them in detail about the subject and
in simple terms it comes down to supply and demand.
Untill the new refrigerants are mass produced they will
continue to be expensive. When one or two individual
refrigerants are chosen as the favorite the price would
fall but until all refrigerants are produced in high quantities
to bring the price down, they will remain high.
Rob
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I now work for a Hugh company who has a direct contract
with BOC and I ordered some R449A the other day and was
told there was a 3 week turn around period while it was made.
So BOC make the stuff to order.
While it's like that, the price will always be high.
Regards
Rob
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Manufacturers and wholesalers are simply holding the industry by the balls and they don't even blink when they raise the prices.
there is no shortage of refrigerants but smaller quantities, plants don't shut down.
Too many industries depends on refrigerant, more and more domestic ac units are being installed.
I wonder how much tax the governments are taking per KG.
It's a cruel game where only the customer lose.
20% vat,that's all I can see it would be curious to know what the cost per kg it is in other EU countries
Some of the wholesalers are no longer offering special prices if you buy a reasonable quantity of cylinders of one flavour.
Everything is now based on the single cylinder price.
Not so bad if you are selling your gas to service customers who will be paying the current price, but definitely not good if you have a large fixed price project quoted back in February, which will be commissioned in September and requires 400kgs of refrigerant R410A. You can guess who is going to loose out on that one!
Just been quoted £539 for 12kg of r422a from the same wholsaler i paid £189 less than 2 months ago. Bloody criminal
They are bandits committing highway robbery in the name of environmental concerns, to boost prices on low GWP refrigerants while trying to price the GWP refrigerants out of the market to meet some BS environmental targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by doormaster2008
Our industry bodies need to start getting involved but as usual they are just pawns to the manufacturers/wholesalers and are more interested in corporate entertainment that actual policy decisions.
All we have from years of input is some crappy f-gas legislation that is unenforceable and refrigerants and equipment charged with refrigerants still being sold and installed by every Tom **** & Harry!
Sorry rant over but its hot and busy for us guys out there at the moment and all this refrigerant BS just winds me up!
Try explaining the constant rounds of refrigerant price rises to your client and he just thinks that you are scamming him.
I wonder how long the industry can afford to keep on accepting and passing on these huge price increases before something changes.
The commercial fridge end users are soon going to complain when the service bills start to skyrocket out of proportion.
Quite agree that the hot weather is probably making us all more tetchy and grumpy. Rant over.
Perhaps its time for some kind of co-op to be formed by refrigeration companies large and small to import these gases directly from china or wherever they are made.
A co-op would not work,if I am understanding the price increases it sounds like profiteering plain and simple what can be done I guess nothing,concentrating on preventing leakage is one way of keeping customer happy but quoting for a large install must be a nightmare but on the other hand everyone is in the same boat so to speak?,these price hikes are not happening worldwide it just seems to be in the UK from what I am told,co2 sounds like the future.
Just got to spend more time shopping around for the best price at that point in time. Wish we had stockpiled last year!
Just noticed that the price per kilo from D&W and HRP for the most popular flavours of refrigerant are almost identical. I appreciate that they are both owned by Beijer Ref and the price coincidence is despite being supplied by different refrigerant manufacturers. Is it just a case of because they can?
I paid over £200.00 for a dumpy of R422D in February, I had no choice as it was the only ideal drop in replacement for R22 that they recommended.
I wouldn't mind but on the next system it was the same compressor and almost identicle components and I used 407 C, and it worked just as good and was much cheaper about a third of the price. I know which replacement I will be using next time.
I have noticed D&W and HRP stock A gas and BOC and their prices are almost on par, like the other posts say its all down to greed and take it or leave it.
How does anyone in manufactruing equipment compete with exporting to the far Eastern market, that still use the old gases and only use the equipment in their own and meighbouring countries.
Just noticed that Beijer Ref announced an increase in profits this quarter. Strange that!
Erm,profiteering nasty word but something is not right
posts 11 & 12 mirror my views. Problem is there are too many different variant refrigerants out there now where in the past R11, R12, R22, R502 did most jobs. Also falling interest in membership of trade associations and zero effective lobbying on behalf of the industry don't help.
Either way, end users are feeling screwed by us, trouble is we don't feel the pleasure...
Just received notification that R404A is to go up by 50%, R410A by 30% and R134a by 20% as from 1st August. Guess it's time to get stocked up again. More prices to change on new quotations, just in order to keep up.
Holy smoke! glad to be out of the madness 50% on 404a!
R422d, R404a have very high GWP's so the price will rise and it is likely that these refrigerants will be withdrawn from sale early 2018. It is supply and demand. The chemical plants cannot just go and make some more. It is all on a quota if gwp. With regards to 407c as a replacement for 22, not a good idea. 22 worked with mineral oil. 407 works with synthetic polyolester oils. There will be a miscibility issue unless you have drilled the bottom of the compressor and done an oil change. Refrigerant issues are here to stay. R32 will be the last HFC for Aircon. See Kigali agreement for further info.
Hi Doormaster2008
Why you using R422a? has GWP on a par with R404a?.. Just curious..
Icemankool
Not a good idea using R407c as a drop in for R22,without an oil change and a system flush. R22 is designed for mineral oil, R407c is designed for use with synthetic oils. The chemical reaction between "new" refrigerant and "old" oil, could lead to waxing of the oil. You could be lining yourself up for a massive headache! That's not to mention the potential miscibility issues...
As a general rule (although not really relevant now as all the "old" refrigerants are banned) You can use the "old gas" on the "new" oil ("ester" / akylbenzene), but NOT the "new" gas on the "old (mineral) oil". (Well, that's how I remembered it back in 1995!!)
It's easy change the oil and flush,of course we all know that or at least we should if we passed f gas the profiteering is ridiculous,the end users of refrigerants are taking the brunt but preventative maintainance is the key and all of our customers need to be shown it's the future,we can all make more profit by this action then the greedy profiteers will adapt?
Next round of refrigerant price increases have been announced. Oh deep joy.
HA!
You guys should've seen the prices here when the Gov. had a CO2 tax a few years back.
All of a sudden, customers actually wanted you to find the leaks & fix them, instead of asking you to just top it up.
I know I was there in 2013 and have first hand knowledge of this
List price of 404a will be over a £1000 for a bottle of 404a as of 1st December and the so called replacements up by 10 or 20 percent and in short supply who is running this bloody shambles
Had to recharge a 20kg system due to pipe fracture with 407c customer queried price told him would have been twice as much if 404a and the replacement recommended not available.
Who do we complain to
jim
Who do we complained to? that's a good question
.
Don't shoot the messenger but....................................
I know this will not be popular but this is what the regulations are meant to do.
By reducing the amount produced the price will increase due to demand and it
will force the customers to choose to replace older systems with newer ones.
They (the wholesalers) are not profiteering, they have limited amounts of something
and lots of people want it. It's obvious that prices will rise, I'd challenge anyone
who has something somebody else wants, not to sell it at the best price possible.
Agree with the reasons why or not the fact is, this has been coming since 2007
and law since 2009. It should not be such a shock when all the training, information
and legislation has been telling us there will be a 72% reduction in fluorinated
refrigerants by 2030.
It was the same with R22. R22 was put on a controlled phase down 27 years ago
and only 2 years ago we were moaning about the price of the gas, after 25 years
of notice.
I'm only the messenger so don't shoot me but we did know this was happening
and we have been told since 2009, so why is it such a shock?
Rob
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On a different angle was there any pressure on makers of equipment to stop making their wares filled with r404a?,lots of new transport equipment is still available with this refrigerant.
.
Yes.
Supermarkets moved away from 404 about 5 years ago
and the likes of Fosters and Williams who make the commercial
range of fridges and freezers moved to propane and propylene
about 5 years ago also.
So all in all the big users and manufactures of systems using 404
started the transition about 5 years ago.
That leaves everyone else, I'm in exactly the same boat. A cylinder
of 404 at the beginning of the year cost us less than £200 now they
price it as £1200, that is a bigger rise than the 40% reduction in stock.
But it is supply and demand.
Rob
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.
We converted to R449A and apart from the glide seems to work well.
I work for a hugh company who get gas direct from BOC at the same
rates as HRP and Dean & Wood and we have to order the gas because
there is a 3 week wait as they manufacture it. They make the gas to order
while ever it is like that it will never be cheap, not enough used.
Rob
.
I had a supplier who gave good prices sadly his stock has gone so I have searched and ebay seems to be the best,and f gas rules apply to purchase so stocking up as much as I can get ok some sellers want too much but I have found some bargains,wholesalers are cashing in supply and demand rules apply guess I have enough now to weather the storm not so long to my enforced health issues retirement best of luck to my fellow fridge men.
I know someone who is advertising it on Linked in,Quote:
Originally Posted by cadwaladr
about £300 for 10Kg's I think??
I think he bought loads and is now selling it on.
Bit of a pension fund, me thinks :D
Rob
.
.
I knew people who stockpiled R22 15 years ago and
sold it 3 or 4 years ago for hugh, hugh profits.
Just having the foresight to see a possible market.
So which will be next R410A lets all club together,
buy 100 cylinders of the stuff, wait 5 years and flog
it on. If it is timed right just before the 2030 deadline
we might make enough to retire on.
Mmmmmmmmmmm Rob gets to thinking................. :)
Rob dun't do Phinkin.............................................. :D
I tried that one many years ago with R12 and ended up paying to have it destroyed. Not a good move!
I have stock of 404a 407c and 134a to keep me going for a while found someone who did me a deal but sadly his supplier has put the prices up,there is wholesalers out there that are just making figures up the last price I heard from my friend was around £700.00 for ten kilos of 404a best as I said before making clients systems leak proof if that's possible is the way forward.