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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
The current govt in Canada is dominated with people whos profs (at U of Chicago and U of Calgary) leaned so far to the right that Hitler almost comes into view. You may be right about a lot of universities generally leaning to the left but one thing I noticed is that the left will put on a debate and invite the right to speak but the right seldom does the same for the left.
A funny thing I noticed years ago. A local paper in Toronto took all the 44 elected city councilors, looked at their lawns and gardens and added their political leanings to the picture. The upshot is that the more conservative councilors had very perfect, controlled lawns where nothing was out of place and the lefties may have had designed landscaping but then left nature to take its course. The point that was made was that the lefties wanted people to be able to do their own thing, whatever that was (as long as they were not breaking laws) and the right needed everything under its control, a bit opposite to the general perception.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeref
Might be o.k for your area Mike. Different points of view down here. Not me but the way the powers to be tend to go with what they want, not with something that is factual. If it doesn't bring in the money, they turn the other way. Happening now, so much evidence has been provided, for and against such subjects as global warming/ carbon pollution. Medical leans to where the money is, not what can cure someone for a few dollars. Imagine how the drug companies would go broke, with many people out of jobs if there was a cure for anything. (Taking forever to develop cure for the big C when many out there know ways around it). Sorry for rant and have to stop here before i get wound up about the "C"..Mike.
Mike, I've had the big "C" and it's not pretty. Father in law and sister in law going through it at the mo. I agree with you that corporate medical goes where the money is. In Canada, where the provincial govt is responsible for supplying money to the hospitals, they see health cost taking up 40%+ of all tax dollars and have to try and balance health delivery and finding ways to reduce the rising costs.
The simple fact is that most ailments are on the increase especially ones where environmental factors such as manufactured foods or pesticides and hormones may be at play. How do you stop all these things without research and banning things from the food chain. Corporate food guys will scream blood murder and their goes our freedom but when most people couldn't care what they eat as long as their tummies are full, where do you stop? It is a big question.
There is a big argument here about the pink ribbon campaign for breast cancer and the proceeds going towards chemo and not towards research to get rid of the problem....only benefits the drug companies, as usual.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
The left would force you to live this way and the right would force you to live that way. They differ only in the brand of dictatorship they are peddling. When the boot is on your neck, it doesn't matter if it's left or right.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MikeHolm
The point that was made was that the lefties wanted people to be able to do their own thing, whatever that was (as long as they were not breaking laws)...
Therein lies the rub. If everything is dictated by law, then people are NOT able to do their own thing.
Everyone gives lip service to freedom... then they pass law after law... after law... after law... after law...
I would want people to be able to dp their own thing, whatever that is (as long as they are not harming others). See the difference?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Evening Gary
'laws were made to be broken' or we would not have them anyway, would not be needed
also agree with your second comment (as long as they are not harming others).
physical/mental harm can not be tolerated but those claiming harm from trivia, should not be tolerated either
R's chillerman :)
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Harm to others should be the dividing line between that which is legal and that which is not.
There are actions which are clearly harmful to others and these should be felonies.
Then there is the grey area where harm to others is debatable and these should be at most misdemeanors.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Harm to others should be the dividing line between that which is legal and that which is not.
There are actions which are clearly harmful to others and these should be felonies.
Then there is the grey area where harm to others is debatable and these should be at most misdemeanors.
OK, not so hypothetical question....if McDonalds makes "food" with little nutrition and a lot of fat and sugar, markets it really well (as they do), and therefore are a partial cause in the increase in diabetes and other diseases, does this constitute harm to a perhaps not so bright person (who may otherwise be an upstanding member of the community)? If it does, what is the solution? It's that fine line between a corporations "right" to make money and the publics "right" to be protected. We can't be expected to be educated in everything we eat or do. Do we?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
It's hard I find to judge what exactly is that borderline between what should/shouldn't be law
have been thinking about it since your post & I cant stand here & say this should this shouldn't be
apart from the obvious that are definately wrong....we both agree I think, we don't want lawless
but what exactly should be law I really cant say, as some things affect others in different ways
I think its really hard to nail this one, as there will always be another view on what we agree by others & I suppose thats why we are having this conversation, as others have agreed with what is law now, but we dissagree :confused:
What is a 'felony' mate ???
R's chillerman
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MikeHolm
OK, not so hypothetical question....if McDonalds makes "food" with little nutrition and a lot of fat and sugar, markets it really well (as they do), and therefore are a partial cause in the increase in diabetes and other diseases, does this constitute harm to a perhaps not so bright person (who may otherwise be an upstanding member of the community)? If it does, what is the solution? It's that fine line between a corporations "right" to make money and the publics "right" to be protected. We can't be expected to be educated in everything we eat or do. Do we?
I would say (personally) that should be governed by a health law
If you are going to market anything it should be farely truthfull & unhealthy food should be clearly labelled as unhealthy, that would be right to protect all & give them a chance to decide, do I put 5 bullets in this gun for russian roulette or only one, as most foods not good for you now ! Or so they say (especially my full english breakfast I have nearly every day) Where as when I was a wee laddie bread & dripping was supposed to be a treat, that made you grow big and strong !
R's chillerman
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
The biggest point here is that there are two ways to look at a problem like this......one is to say "ban it as it shows some evidence of hurting people" or the opposite which is not to ban it until it is proven to hurt people. Most corporations like the second one so they can sell smokes to minors knowing that the time it takes to actually prove something is a long time and takes a lot of money (and screws up the health system).
BTW, what caused my cancer when I was 35, according to the pathology report, was the fire retardant put into McDonalds deep fat frying oil that went into my hash brown potato every morning for 5 years. Apparently it is a carcinogen. haven't had one since
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chillerman2006
What is a 'felony' mate ???
A felony is a major offense, generally resulting in prison time.
A misdemeanor is a minor offense, generally resulting in a fine.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MikeHolm
The biggest point here is that there are two ways to look at a problem like this......one is to say "ban it as it shows some evidence of hurting people" or the opposite which is not to ban it until it is proven to hurt people. Most corporations like the second one so they can sell smokes to minors knowing that the time it takes to actually prove something is a long time and takes a lot of money (and screws up the health system).
BTW, what caused my cancer when I was 35, according to the pathology report, was the fire retardant put into McDonalds deep fat frying oil that went into my hash brown potato every morning for 5 years. Apparently it is a carcinogen. haven't had one since
I still think you can not ban something - we all need the right to choose - I smoke yet I know odds are stacked against me living to old age, breathing perfect, many smokers last breaths are not good and thats if your lungs dont succomb to the big 'C'
Your second bit mate, Sorry to here that Mike, that really is wrong, very wrong...cant imagine what you been through, especially knowing they caused it, have had minor, just skin and that was worrying enough at the time, it does not matter how level headed you are, thats a hard thing to hear...Do hope you totally clear now mate
As pathology was conclusive hope they had to pay you plenty too (even though money is never enough)
R's chillerman
ps: your still looking young mate ;)
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
A felony is a major offense, generally resulting in prison time.
A misdemeanor is a minor offense, generally resulting in a fine.
Thanks mate
we often have american programmes on and never new difference
cheers
R's chillerman
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MikeHolm
The biggest point here is that there are two ways to look at a problem like this......one is to say "ban it as it shows some evidence of hurting people" or the opposite which is not to ban it until it is proven to hurt people. Most corporations like the second one so they can sell smokes to minors knowing that the time it takes to actually prove something is a long time and takes a lot of money (and screws up the health system).
BTW, what caused my cancer when I was 35, according to the pathology report, was the fire retardant put into McDonalds deep fat frying oil that went into my hash brown potato every morning for 5 years. Apparently it is a carcinogen. haven't had one since
If a product is obviously dangerous to your health or labelled as such, and you purchase it anyway, the government should have no say in the matter. It is a voluntary transaction. You have chosen to take your chances.
BTW, you should sue McDonalds.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chillerman2006
I still think you can not ban something - we all need the right to choose - I smoke yet I know odds are stacked against me living to old age, breathing perfect, many smokers last breaths are not good and thats if your lungs dont succomb to the big 'C'
Your second bit mate, Sorry to here that Mike, that really is wrong, very wrong...cant imagine what you been through, especially knowing they caused it, have had minor, just skin and that was worrying enough at the time, it does not matter how level headed you are, thats a hard thing to hear...Do hope you totally clear now mate
As pathology was conclusive hope they had to pay you plenty too (even though money is never enough)
R's chillerman
ps: your still looking young mate ;)
Should the seatbelt law be repelled?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
If a product is obviously dangerous to your health or labelled as such, and you purchase it anyway, the government should have no say in the matter. It is a voluntary transaction. You have chosen to take your chances.
BTW, you should sue McDonalds.
Should there be a law to test and declare these products
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
Should the seatbelt law be repelled?
Yes... it is none of the government's business.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
Should there be a law to test and declare these products
No... if they prove to be harmful, sue the manufacturer... if they label it and you use it anyway, you lose the lawsuit.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Yes... it is none of the government's business.
Should I have to pay to have the road wiped down after someone went through the windshield?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
No... if they prove to be harmful, sue the manufacturer... if they label it and you use it anyway, you lose the lawsuit.
what if you die before you get a chance to sue
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
Should I have to pay to have the road wiped down after someone went through the windshield?
Yes... you personally should be required to bear all cleanup costs.
A ridiculous question merits a ridiculous answer.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
what if you die before you get a chance to sue
Then your family can sue.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Yes... you personally should be required to bear all cleanup costs.
Your logic ran out of road very quickly....Sadly for all some of us who have hippie backgrounds life gets in the way. To live a true Communist way would be utopia. Sadly as history shows: human frailties committed that experiment to the dustbin of failed ideologies. Your dream of a lawless yet lawful society is yet another ideal doomed to failure.
In certain societies your ideals worked. Native Indians being an obvious one. However they had plenty yet lived a simple life. Those days are long gone and society has become what it is and we are well past the point of no return.. Still the world loves a daydream believer as they used to sing
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Then your family can sue.
and if I have no family or they cannot afford to sue?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Yes... you personally should be required to bear all cleanup costs.
A ridiculous question merits a ridiculous answer.
Who do you think pays to clear up the mess then?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Then your family can sue.
And what if your family or yourself cannot afford to sue, or for that matter you are able to sue but Mr BIG can afford the nations top lawyers? Americans I believe sue more than anyone else by a wide margin, yet it does not seem to make things safer in the USA nor does it seem to stop people from taking advantage of others. It is not the solution to everything.
And the time is long past for me to sue McDonalds. I decided it was not worth the emotional energy and bad karma.
Laws help to bridge the divide between rich and poor and so does mediation (when it is available)
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
Your logic ran out of road very quickly....Sadly for all some of us who have hippie backgrounds life gets in the way. To live a true Communist way would be utopia. Sadly as history shows: human frailties committed that experiment to the dustbin of failed ideologies. Your dream of a lawless yet lawful society is yet another ideal doomed to failure.
In certain societies your ideals worked. Native Indians being an obvious one. However they had plenty yet lived a simple life. Those days are long gone and society has become what it is and we are well past the point of no return.. Still the world loves a daydream believer as they used to sing
Well said Master Bartlett...
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
Your logic ran out of road very quickly....Sadly for all some of us who have hippie backgrounds life gets in the way. To live a true Communist way would be utopia. Sadly as history shows: human frailties committed that experiment to the dustbin of failed ideologies. Your dream of a lawless yet lawful society is yet another ideal doomed to failure.
In certain societies your ideals worked. Native Indians being an obvious one. However they had plenty yet lived a simple life. Those days are long gone and society has become what it is and we are well past the point of no return.. Still the world loves a daydream believer as they used to sing
Communist?... just another form of dictatorship.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Communist?... just another form of dictatorship.
You obviously don't know what Communism actually is: rather how it has been (mis)intrepreted..
Communist idealogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
And you obviously have not read my posts... or perhaps you were referring to yourself as a communist?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Communist/ Fascist, nearly the the same thing and we are not quite there yet but America is slowly moving towards Fascist or theocratic-fascist rule as I see it.
If you took all the Europeans out of Europe and replaced them with a half Billion Americans with their current ideologies(left and right), there would be war within a couple of years. There is a reason why the political climate in most American cities is more left wing than in the suburbs......people need each other and to get along in density, you need to compromise. Not in Texas or anywhere else where there is room for people to get away from everyone else but when you cannot get away, you must learn to live with people and that means laws.
Britons have the right to common passage across privately owned tracts of land for a reason...
They prevent people from building on every single piece of property (unlike over here) for a reason....
a million other laws that are for the common good and keep some harmony....
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
And you obviously have not read my posts... or perhaps you were referring to yourself as a communist?
I did, as you stated communism was a form of dictatorship -which it plainly isn't. (Not if you truely understand what communism is,which by your own admission you don't)
We all should be communists> "For the people by the people" is communism in it's purest form... How ironic is that?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MikeHolm
Communist/ Fascist, nearly the the same thing and we are not quite there yet but America is slowly moving towards Fascist or theocratic-fascist rule as I see it.
If you took all the Europeans out of Europe and replaced them with a half Billion Americans with their current ideologies(left and right), there would be war within a couple of years. There is a reason why the political climate in most American cities is more left wing than in the suburbs......people need each other and to get along in density, you need to compromise. Not in Texas or anywhere else where there is room for people to get away from everyone else but when you cannot get away, you must learn to live with people and that means laws.
Britons have the right to common passage across privately owned tracts of land for a reason...
They prevent people from building on every single piece of property (unlike over here) for a reason....
a million other laws that are for the common good and keep some harmony....
There has never been a true communist country so I don't believe you can make the connection. If you said Socialist/Fascists were close then I'd agree. For example Hitler was a left wing socialist who was called a right wing fascist
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
I admitted no such thing... and communism calls for the majority to dictate the lives of the minority.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
I admitted no such thing... and communism calls for the majority to dictate the lives of the minority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Communist?... just another form of dictatorship.
Err yes you did..Unless you don't understand what a dictatorship is either?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
Err yes you did..Unless you don't understand what a dictatorship is either?
I use a much broader definition of dictatorship.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
There has never been a true communist country so I don't believe you can make the connection. If you said Socialist/Fascists were close then I'd agree. For example Hitler was a left wing socialist who was called a right wing fascist
Very true but I was referring less to the theoretical definition of Communism than that of the "state capitalist" country of the the USSR and their brand of communism. Also, where in the USSR, everything was state owned, Nazi's made pacts with the large industrialists and didn't nationalize industries under their own name (although they were controlled by the state to some extent for the upcoming war).
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Gents
1. you's blow me away with your vast knowledge & in depth detail of this confusing (to me) subject
2. you are all good friends of mine....please please keep it cool...I am very interested in your views here, very educational to me, but sad to see friends of mine getting so heated, we all have different views & none of us can agree with everyone all the time, but it does not mean , anyone is wrong or right.....hope you's can all shake hands tonight & continue to educate me (& others) without the heat
Thanx in advance
R's chillerman :)
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Those who advocate controversial (grey area) laws naively believe those laws will be obeyed and everyone will live happily ever after. Sorry, that's not how it works.
The more controversial the law, the more likely it will be disobeyed.
You can put a gun to someone's head and force them to obey you, but when your back is turned they will disobey you... and if they think they can get away with it they will strangle you in your sleep.
Whenever one person/group is able to dominate another person/group it is personal and heated... especially for those on the losing end who must choose between slavery or punishment.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
The thing that confuses me with communism is 'if' its for the good of everyone to be all equal with no higher/lower classes, everyone is treated the same
Then why do the two countries that first come to mind R & C ...have such appalling records of human rights ???
Why do they execute (murder) their own ??? ( is this right ??? does anyone have the right to take life ??? ) & one I have seen recently even makes the other prisoners carry this out
Rather than allow everyone to be equal, it appears to me that they have even more laws, with far harsher punishments and the harshest of all if your dare speak out against the regime that run the country
R's chillerman