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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
People will vote for the candidate who... a)promises to make somebody else pay for their favorite programs and/or... b)promises to control the behavior of others. IOW, they get elected BECAUSE they are thieves and dictators. Then the voters are shocked if/when they realize it is they who are getting screwed. That's what happens when you dance with the devil.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
I must presume that you do not vote then Gary ?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quality
I must presume that you do not vote then Gary ?
Then you presume incorrectly. Generally, I vote for people who have little chance of getting elected, but that's not what matters.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
It is quite interesting that many people believe that a "conservative" candidate is looking out for their best interests, is more frugal and wants less government. That is very wrong. Under every conservative government in Canada, USA, Britain (with small exceptions) debt has gone up, earning power of the poor vs the rich has declined and there have been more limits placed on what individuals can do.
Case in point, many governments give some money to support the arts, in some way. With our new majority conservative government, funding has been cut to organizations whose message or programs (like live theater) doesn't meet their political dogma. Under "liberal" governments this would never have happened. Equal opportunity for all.
The same is true for battered womens shelters if the leadership says something out of line with the conservative dogma. Is this the right think to do?
Gary, I would like how you as an individual are getting screwed by the government. I have my own ideas but I would like to hear yours.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
See what you started here Damaircon :eek:
Going back to your original point , I can tell you that I am fully qualified as well as the men, reason being_______ if they have to do it why shouldnt I. Apart from that I was on the tools originally, albeit some time ago now although I sometimes wish I had stayed there as well. Mind you I can still do an install now and again.
I have to tell you that I had an Electrical Wholesaler in the other day asking me about who I buy my refrigerant from!!! Why asks I , well it turns out a large refrigerant manufacturer wants to know if this Wholesaler, who has about 500 branches, would be willing to stock and sell refrigerant for them. I asked him how they were intending to regulate the sale of the refrigerant and he could not give me an adequate answer. I will be hearing the feedback from them soon but what does this tell us about regulation.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
When the new F-gas certs were first announced I along with many others I know were rubbing our hands together and wrongly thinking - right that’s it - all the cowboys gone - mass shortage of engineers = massive wage rises :D
My delusion of an expected 20-30% wage increase over the next year or so was blown straight out the water as soon as I took my test and now totally confirmed by your posts here :(
I took the J11 as the test centre is just a short drive from my home and I am still now months later totally shocked at what I found
A trainer who did not understand principles of refrigeration and a mixed class of general building trades all of which needless to say passed with flying colours
It was a two day refresher with an additional half day for the theory/practical
Day one went well - rules, regs & protocols
Day two the trainer was exposed
He gave us some mock questions one of which was
If a system running on R134a has a discharge pressure of 12bar.g. and a liquid line temp of 52 degrees C what is the subcooling?
When it came to going through the questions the trainer pointed at me for this answer and I explained there was no subcooling and somehow his imaginary system had managed to superheat the refrigerant in the condenser.
He replied "wrong there is 3 degrees of subcooling" I tried to explain but he insisted he was right
I looked round at the others waiting for support and they all just looked blank and said nothing, so I just shook my head and let it go
The next day, test time it gets worse
This is the J11 so the trainer marks your paper - you must get 100% to pass - no online test
Taking my readings on the rig I found (R134a) there was a suction pressure of 1bar.g and temp was 17.2 degrees C - quickly working it out 1bar.g = minus 10 so I have a superheat of 27.2 degrees C, filled in my paper told him I was finished and asked if I could leave
He then pulled me to one side and said you want to change that one its 7.2 not 27.2 you have to just minus one from the other
We argued back and forth who was right until the point I had enough and told him he is talking out his backside:o
He then replied "you either put 7.2 or I am going to fail you"
Having no choice I put 7.2 and received a pass
This is just a joke £550 to be forced to write incorrect answers to pass a test which he nursed and basically guaranteed a pass to all the builders and now you guys have clearly shown me the ticket is just a political stunt to say “ hay we’re saving the planet”
To say I am not impressed is an understatement :mad:
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Comments surrounding the quality of training provisions aside have we all considered any of the following:
1) When CORGI was catapaulted in front of the public it was supported with a massive advertising campaign across all forms of media which highlighted the need for compliance. F-Gas has not been supported in a similar manner and relies, as far as I can see, upon the good will of the sector to self promote, on a un-paid basis, the requirement.
2) If the objective is to reduce CO2 why have we not enforced EPC/DEC/SAP's or Air Conditioning Inspections.
3) If the objective is to reduce refrigerant leakage why do we still have flares - I could go on!!
4) Whilst training obviously benefits both the larger community and the sector as a whole we retain the oldest housing stock in Europe, with all of the associate problems which this causes, and yet the focus of attention remains on this sector to reduce emissions?
5) Given that training improves the sector why do I still note that systems containing less refrigerant are exempt from F-Gas? The system capacity confirms the frequency of service visits - unless the criteria has changed since I completed 2078. We all have a responsibility under the Montreal Protocol to reduce leakage and although the Act was revised the opening paragraph of the revised legislation refers to this requirement.
6) The government has defined refrigerant and oil as hazardous waste so how is it possible for pre-charged units to be sold to associate trades - since by definition they will not have received the training to advise their client correctly. For example do you believe that DEFRA will accept that a unit which has remained unserviced for a period of years and than suffers a leak complies with the intent of the act and moreover if the customer has not been informed of their obligations under the act how could they avoid possible actions being brought by DEFRA?
7) I recently received notice from REFCOM that my membership had expired and that it should be upgraded to suit current legislation. The body of the letter continues that my inclusion on the 2078 data base will be used by the issuing authorities to confirm compliance with the new requirements rather than address those who have yet to obtain any training?
So if anybody can convince me that the new requirements are anything other than demonstrating compliance to Europe I welcome the confirmation.
tmm
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tmm
5) Given that training improves the sector
The likes of Ellis training centre - Yes agreed - but the trainer i had is now doing 2 week new starter courses, getting total novices through a ticket, teaching them a load of bull:(
If you are trained incorrectly on superheat/subcooling what use is that to our industry ?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chillerman2006
The likes of Ellis training centre - Yes agreed - but the trainer i had is now doing 2 week new starter courses, getting total novices through a ticket, teaching them a load of bull:(
If you are trained incorrectly on superheat/subcooling what use is that to our industry ?
We all know there are rogue trainers out there,we have covered this many times.
It would be a good idea to have a 5 yearly retest which will allow the regulators to slowly catch up on them and drive them out of business. However I hope you report this training company to DEFRA as unless we take action there is little point comong here moaning about poor standards.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
r.bartlett
However I hope you report this training company to DEFRA as unless we take action there is little point comong here moaning about poor standards.
I know deep down your 100% right here and shall give it some serious consideration over the next couple of days
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
.
It is not DEFRA that need to know it is City & Guilds or CITB. CITB in this case.
If the course was run correctly you should have had a complaints procedure explained to you.
If he had failed you and if his calculations were as you say then that would be evidence and
the complaints procedure would highlight it.
If you felt you were not given a fair hearing then, you can take it up with the governing body
and they will assess the evidence and it will come to light.
If the evidence has gone it is now your word against his.
He will be told to check his information and as a training agency they will be told to improve standards
by carrying out internal quality audits. These will show up the problem if the training company are
realy bothered about standards and not just proffit.
We all make mistakes and we hopfuly learn from them but if a company is giving the qualification
away they are insulting your knowledge and hard work and are doing nobody any favours.
taz.
.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taz24
.
if a company is giving the qualification
away they are insulting your knowledge and hard work and are doing nobody any favours.
taz.
.
Exactly :(
If you take the citb/cskills or c&g route they have no one to answer to apart from there own investigating colleagues - easily brushed under the carpet
Where as when you take the F-Gas Support & Defra route, they both give you a reference number, do the complaining on your behalf and then ensure it is fully investigated and rectified
Defra's area of authority includes environmental laws are adhered to including false qualification which can have an environmental impact
in this case carbon footprint increase
If we all set up our systems with 27 degress of superheat instead of 7, unlike us they dont really care about the compressors life but they do about the excessive use of electricity
You and I , don't worry training bodies as we have no clout, Defra do
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chillerman2006
Exactly :(
If you take the citb/cskills or c&g route they have no one to answer to apart from there own investigating colleagues - easily brushed under the carpet
Where as when you take the F-Gas Support & Defra route, they both give you a reference number, do the complaining on your behalf and then ensure it is fully investigated and rectified
Defra's area of authority includes environmental laws are adhered to including false qualification which can have an environmental impact
in this case carbon footprint increase
If we all set up our systems with 27 degress of superheat instead of 7, unlike us they dont really care about the compressors life but they do about the excessive use of electricity
You and I , don't worry training bodies as we have no clout, Defra do
Just for the record, I am a trainer and an assessor in a training centre.
I have always been open about this, trying to keep inpartial regarding differant
issues that are raised somtimes.
I'm not sure if you trust what I say, but
City & Guilds and CITB would come down very hard on anyone who is proven,
not to keep to standards.
If CITB got an email from an individual stating that they experienced somthing
that did not seem right they would and do look into it and it is done completely
indipendently from the trainers themselves.
Don't get me wrong, this system is not perfect and it can be improved but if
sombody felt there was an issue it needs to be raised so it could deal with it.
DEFRA would not know how to deal with this problem, nor are they empowered
to do anything. It is a quality of training issue and must be addressed by the training
agencies themselves.
taz
.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taz24
Just for the record, I am a trainer and an assessor in a training centre.
.
Yes I was aware and have wondered since if you may have trained me...along time ago i quickly add
Due to my recent experience of this trainer in question, I would never use a citb centre again
I would only go one place ETS now known as ETW, even though its well out of my way and would these days due to my location include over night stays
A dog only bites me once and then he's gone
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
It should be remembered that 2079 is not a PHD in RAC, but only an absolute minimum requirement for handling refrigerant containing F-gas in an environmentally safe manner (you can go ahead blow yourself up with propane or kill a small village with ammonia). In comparison to many other industries, it's the lightest of requirements.
In respect of the 'government with their hand in our pocket' comments, this is a European directive so everybody is in similar boats (the detail decided by member states), here there is no payment to the government - the training is even VAT exempt. I've said it here before, if you comply and you know somebody isn't - point the EPA in their direction (053) 91 60600 for Ireland and UK is posted by r.bartlett above. The standard instrument is now in law (SI278 see it here http://www.refrigerationskillnet.ie/...i279of2011.pdf) and the EPA have tendered and are appointing auditors for suppliers, contractors and end users of f-gases.
I know I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, but I am always amused by people (especially company bosses) who complain about 'other' trades presenting for training, who have not been investing in training themselves or their staff.
Oh and for 2079 there is no requirement to retrain or retest after a period and there is no provision in the Directive for it either. It is being revised but I don't believe there is any intention to change that. I understand that the CITB training is to be renewed periodically. As a matter of interest what is the industry view on the CITB v 2079... for example if you had two interview candidates one with 10 years experience and a CITB and one with 10 years experience and 2079 - which would you pick?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RSTC
.
I know I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, but I am always amused by people (especially company bosses) who complain about 'other' trades presenting for training, who have not been investing in training themselves or their staff.
for example if you had two interview candidates one with 10 years experience and a CITB and one with 10 years experience and 2079 - which would you pick?
Hi RSTC
Jack of all trades & Master of None, :eek: - just my 2 cents on that one
The candidate to choose will be the most experienced/able, qualifications come second
R's chillerman :D
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RSTC
It should be remembered that 2079 is not a PHD in RAC, but only an absolute minimum requirement for handling refrigerant containing F-gas in an environmentally safe manner (you can go ahead blow yourself up with propane or kill a small village with ammonia). In comparison to many other industries, it's the lightest of requirements.
In respect of the 'government with their hand in our pocket' comments, this is a European directive so everybody is in similar boats (the detail decided by member states), here there is no payment to the government - the training is even VAT exempt. I've said it here before, if you comply and you know somebody isn't - point the EPA in their direction (053) 91 60600 for Ireland and UK is posted by r.bartlett above. The standard instrument is now in law
(SI278 see it here
http://www.refrigerationskillnet.ie/...i279of2011.pdf) and the EPA have tendered and are appointing auditors for suppliers, contractors and end users of f-gases.
I know I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, but I am always amused by people (especially company bosses) who complain about 'other' trades presenting for training, who have not been investing in training themselves or their staff.
Oh and for 2079 there is no requirement to retrain or retest after a period and there is no provision in the Directive for it either. It is being revised but I don't believe there is any intention to change that. I understand that the CITB training is to be renewed periodically. As a matter of interest what is the industry view on the CITB v 2079... for example if you had two interview candidates one with 10 years experience and a CITB and one with 10 years experience and 2079 - which would you pick?
Hi RSTC.
Do you guys in ireland have the same cit& guilds / citb.
I ask because there is a huge difference between C&G Close book exam and CITB (Is it called J11 or something like that?) Which is open book.
Simply put the C&G is harder to obtain or at least should be.
Also why are you quoting Ammonia as it has nothing to do with these regs.
Safe handling of Ammonia is a totally separate course.
Basically holding an F Gas certificate is the industry starting point now!
We all have to have it so having one does not make the engineer.
What it does do however is make each and everyone of us in individually responsible.
Try arguing after something environmentally went wrong on one of your jobs, that you did not know better.
Ain't going to happen!
We all got driving licenses then we learned from experience.
F Gas is no different.
OH! I would employ the one with the experience that best suits the job role being offered.
Grizzly
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chillerman2006
Yes I was aware and have wondered since if you may have trained me...along time ago i quickly add
Due to my recent experience of this trainer in question, I would never use a citb centre again
I would only go one place ETS now known as ETW, even though its well out of my way and would these days due to my location include over night stays
A dog only bites me once and then he's gone
I understand what you are saying about your center preference but the standard should be the same at every center and those who have been found to have a standard which is below the requirement should be brought to the attention of the certification body i.e. cskills of c&g
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quality
I understand what you are saying about your center preference but the standard should be the same at every center and those who have been found to have a standard which is below the requirement should be brought to the attention of the certification body i.e. cskills of c&g
Yep, fair comment bud
but citb J11 is 100% to pass & renewable every 5years
c&g 2079 is 70-75% (i am told) & is for life just like 2078 :D
That bit dont add up for starters, or does it
I have since found standards are the same at a place i often recommended untill I met someone they had trained and passed. The person I met spent just over half a day with me this week & now understands principles of ref. His actual words to me when I was getting ready to leave site was "I have learned more from you today than I did at that week long course"
I am not no trainer(just an engineer), but I do try to simplify things when explaining & I have good patience with trainee's that show interest. I also keep going over one thing till it sinks in & dont move on to another till we both sure they have got it.
Maybe I should be training the trainers my techniques, haha :rolleyes:
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Hi Grizzly, Chillerman
I'm not actually employing! I'm just posing the question which (of the two) is seen as better from an employers standpoint (all other things being equal).
Re Irish qualifications, as it's a European directive any and all qualifications are acceptable over here so C&G is as accepted as say a german or polish qualification in the eyes of the EPA. FETAC is the Irish certification body, 5S0108 is the qualification code though I have yet to meet anybody who has done this as City & Guilds seems to be the training of choice.
RE my comment regarding ammonia etc I have spoken to a number of people who were under the impression that 2079 is in some way the top of the education pyramid, therefore miffed when they hear stories of non-time-served/experienced guys successfully completing it. Understandably they feel that their existing qualifications and experienced is undermined if (in people's minds) 2079 is all that matters....
my two cents is that F-Gas regs, especially the training element, is a big step forward for the industry and the environment and the people who pushed the matter like AREA, IoR, etc should commended for the work they have done (certainly not given out about) but now it's time to take a step back and remind the world that there is more to RAC than just handling F-Gas!
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RSTC
the training is even VAT exempt.
RSTC or TAZ .............. or Anyone else who knows
Can you confirm this for me ?
Point me in the direction of official site .... eg. .gov.uk
As I have been charged VAT
:confused:
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
i encountered these same problems here in ireland there was electricians on my course who worked for air con companys they couldnt weld and barely use guages to pump down the simplest condensing units yet they still passed
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
I think we would all agree that such courses teach people just enough to be dangerous. They are not a course in refrigeration, nor are they simply a material handling/transporting course. They teach too much and/or too little. They are neither here nor there. As such, they serve no useful purpose... and if anything are counter-productive.
Those who receive these certifications believe they are qualified to work on the systems. The problem isn't that they don't know, it's that they don't know that they don't know.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
just for the record the 2079 will not last forever as the 2078 did not nor the 2077. I have posted previously that the 2079 is based on BS EN 378 2000 which we all know has been replaced by BS EN 378 2008 hence the 2079 was already out of date when the city and guilds certified the first candidates back in 2008 when the new standard had been released.
My theory is to stick with construction skills which is very up to date
ps I do not work directly for either
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
polarpodge
i encountered these same problems here in ireland there was electricians on my course who worked for air con companys they couldnt weld and barely use guages to pump down the simplest condensing units yet they still passed
A problem not only in the EU & Ireland but also Australia & New Zealand see #12
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...e-in-Australia
I presume the world over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
I think we would all agree that such courses teach people just enough to be dangerous. They are not a course in refrigeration, nor are they simply a material handling/transporting course. They teach too much and/or too little. They are neither here nor there. As such, they serve no useful purpose... and if anything are counter-productive.
Those who receive these certifications believe they are qualified to work on the systems. The problem isn't that they don't know, it's that they don't know that they don't know.
Here Here.. Quite right & Tactfully put
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quality
just for the record the 2079 will not last forever as the 2078 did not nor the 2077. I have posted previously that the 2079 is based on BS EN 378 2000 which we all know has been replaced by BS EN 378 2008 hence the 2079 was already out of date when the city and guilds certified the first candidates back in 2008
Well that is shocking - what a waste of time & how deceptive a new qualification can be
I think the only way forward is a world wide recongnised minimum qualification thats syllabus has been put together to cover all the basics of refrigeration + health & safety + environmental facts.
It needs to be derived from input from elected (by engineers) outspoken knowledgable individuals from all participating countries such as Gary that do not have a vested interest in making money from it like the current 2079 was.
A date should be set for compulsory qualification
And it should be made clear that if you dont have the knowledge for the theory or the skills & knowledge for the practicle you dont pass & you dont work in the industry untill you do.
There should be no hand holding on tests
And I for one would be happy to pay for training for myself, to bring me up to standard, if it was found I did not have the sufficient knowledge or skills to pass.
This would then in effect clean up the industry world wide & show the public what an Elite Industry this really should be & not the, any ole fool can do it, perception that I currently come across
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
I'm not a big fan of elitism... especially when it is government mandated.
Personally, I would go the other way. Get rid of all of these useless regulations and go back to the original plan, i.e. phase out the suspect refrigerants at the manufacturing level and nothing else.
Stop screwing up our industry. The regulations cause more problems than they solve.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
I'm not a big fan of elitism... especially when it is government mandated.
Stop screwing up our industry. The regulations cause more problems than they solve.
What's the way way forward then, to clean up the industry from a poor skills point of view, which all though it sounds selfish appears more important to most of us that have posted.
Thinking outside the box here for a minute, it's a bit
Pot Kettle Black
We are all multi-skilled (plumbers, electricians, refrigeration eng. & transport eng. diesel fitters aswell)
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
The way to improve skills is to improve education... but then, we've been playing that game ever since I can remember. Every time there is a call for better education in our industry, what we end up getting is more education, not better education. More of what we don't need to know instead of what we do need to know.
It's like teaching someone how to swim. We teach him all about the chemical and physical properties of water and precisely how to build a swimming pool, then throw him in the deep end and wonder why he drowns. What can we expect when those who decide what constitutes "better education" are the people who design pools, rather than the expert swimmers?
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
The way to improve skills is to improve education... but then, we've been playing that game ever since I can remember. Every time there is a call for better education in our industry, what we end up getting is more education, not better education. More of what we don't need to know instead of what we do need to know.
It's like teaching someone how to swim. We teach him all about the chemical and physical properties of water and precisely how to build a swimming pool, then throw him in the deep end and wonder why he drowns. What can we expect when those who decide what constitutes "better education" are the people who design pools, rather than the expert swimmers?
It's late here now mate but I think I get what you mean
We need expert swimmers to pass on the skills, not so much pool attendents & without interference from politicians
It's just like the olympics though, larger countries have more expert swimmers to choose from & smaller ones have to just use what they do have & only occasionly gain medals when a gifted swimmer is found.
We still have a problem here then, people learning to swim & passing on there skills as they go, sadly not many of olympic standard
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
It would seem to me that most of this BS is driven by pilocks in govt departments, uni academics, training facilitors, manufactures and large end users, at the end of the day the contractors have to abide by the BS. If it is really seen as an issue, then regulate the industry properly, like the gas, electrical or petro chem industries (only those who are time served and fully qualified are allowed to undertake refrigeration/AC work) Refresher courses to keep up with changes in technology. (you will never stop those who will break the law regardless)
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chillerman2006
Point me in the direction of official site .... eg. .gov.uk
As I have been charged VAT
:confused:
extract from www.revenue.ie Appendix A: VAT Exempt activities :
"children's or young people's education, school or university education, and vocational training
or retraining (including the supply of goods and services incidental thereto , other than
the supply of research services), provided by educational establishments recognised by the
State, and education, training or retraining of a similar kind , excluding instruction in the driving
of mechanically propelled road vehicles other than vehicles designed or constructed for
the conveyance of goods with a capacity of 1.5 tonnes or more, provided by other persons;
"
That's for our side of the pond but I don't think you are any different. Hope that helps
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RSTC
extract from
www.revenue.ie Appendix A: VAT Exempt activities :
"children's or young people's education, school or
university education, and vocational training
or retraining (including the supply of goods and services incidental thereto , other than
the supply of research services), provided by educational establishments recognised by the
State, and education, training or retraining of a similar kind , excluding instruction in the driving
of mechanically propelled road vehicles other than vehicles designed or constructed for
the conveyance of goods with a capacity of 1.5 tonnes or more, provided by other persons;
"
That's for our side of the pond but I don't think you are any different. Hope that helps
Ok thanks mate, will phone and query my bill monday
cheers
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
It would seem to me that most of this BS is driven by pilocks in govt departments, uni academics, training facilitors, manufactures and large end users, at the end of the day the contractors have to abide by the BS. If it is really seen as an issue, then regulate the industry properly, like the gas, electrical or petro chem industries (only those who are time served and fully qualified are allowed to undertake refrigeration/AC work) Refresher courses to keep up with changes in technology. (you will never stop those who will break the law regardless)
Evening Mad
that would be perfect for us here & would be the way forward from an engineers point of view - the main thing we all know would happen is the less able would be removed from the industry untill they are able - and that would drive up wages - like it did when the gas trade was fully regulated
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Some say that politicians etc are bad yes often that's true, but without rules how does society operate? Someone has to set the rules. Or is it suggested it's everyman for him self (see Somalia, pirates, terrorists etc)?
Then there are those that deny global warming, well the vast majority of world scientific community can't be wrong! But then there are some who see conspiracy every where and even when confronted with evidence disproving their theories they invent more rubbish!
With regard to re-training, would you like a surgeon to operate on you who last had up to date training say in 1970 when they qualified? Or would you prefer a surgeon who used up to date practice & technology as so saving you're life!
All trade industries need to be governed by a registration system same as doctors and therefore to practice unregistered would be a criminal offence. This in the long run makes life easier for all. The customer would be confident that he will pay only once for a job. Not hire a cowboy who screws the job, then the customer pays twice to get a qualified person to correct the bad job! This would raise the pay for all after all if the customer knows he will only pay once he will be prepared to pay a reasonable price. Otherwise the qualified are under cut by the cowboys then the qualified are knocked down on price because the customer has run out of money!
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Once again we hear the all or nothing crap. We need minimum laws, not zero laws and not laws that dictate how you must walk, talk, look, act and think, every waking moment of your life.
The vast majority of the scientific community can't be wrong? Aren't these the same crowd who said tomatoes were poisonous? They are often wrong... and these days they are funded/controlled by politicians.
Some of the worst jobs I have seen were done by licensed people... and some of the best by unlicensed people. It doesn't mean a thing.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Once again we hear the all or nothing crap. We need minimum laws, not zero laws and not laws that dictate how you must walk, talk, look, act and think, every waking moment of your life.
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Too Right Mate
you have a perfect way of summing up Gary
Cheers chillerman
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
Once again we hear the all or nothing crap. We need minimum laws, not zero laws and not laws that dictate how you must walk, talk, look, act and think, every waking moment of your life.
The vast majority of the scientific community can't be wrong? Aren't these the same crowd who said tomatoes were poisonous? They are often wrong... and these days they are funded/controlled by politicians.
Some of the worst jobs I have seen were done by licensed people... and some of the best by unlicensed people. It doesn't mean a thing.
Gary , the vast number of scientists who work on global warming are at universities, which by the way, are supposed to be areas where one can undertake study in almost anything and discuss almost anything without interference from governments or corporations. This is the very basis of the University and has been for centuries. Unfortunately the world IS moving towards a corporate agenda whether we like it or not (govt is more and more controlled by them), and funding is coming more and more from corporate sources. This is a fact in North America although less so in Europe.
In the medical world, where my wife is a scientist, the govt says "we have to reduce arthritis". You scientists present grants for possible avenues to explore and a body of your peers will decide (not the government, mind you) if they have merit. Then you get the funds.
The scientists (and I know a few) couldn't care less about a govt agenda. They are from all areas of study and some of them just wonder why all the frogs are disappearing, for example. They just want to find out why something is happening and if it points left, they go left. If it point right they turn right.
The climate conferences put out their report and that report is a consensus report so if 5% of the scientists don't agree, it doesn't go in the report. In this way, what you read is the very base of agreement. Nothing pie in the sky.....nothing overblown.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
With the massive changes going on around us, post 911, expect more intrusion, not less into our lives. I am a bit libertarian as well which is why I couldn't live in Europe, I think, but i do understand the flawed way we create the laws, many of which I hate as much as you guys do.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Might be o.k for your area Mike. Different points of view down here. Not me but the way the powers to be tend to go with what they want, not with something that is factual. If it doesn't bring in the money, they turn the other way. Happening now, so much evidence has been provided, for and against such subjects as global warming/ carbon pollution. Medical leans to where the money is, not what can cure someone for a few dollars. Imagine how the drug companies would go broke, with many people out of jobs if there was a cure for anything. (Taking forever to develop cure for the big C when many out there know ways around it). Sorry for rant and have to stop here before i get wound up about the "C"..Mike.
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Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!
Been a while since I was at university, but I remember it being very political. All the professors leaned so far left it's a wonder the building didn't tip over.