Another heat pump getting a bad name... good read... NIBE Fighter 360p

Over on the other forum it is full of complaints from people who have had bought a new house/flat with a heat pump specified by the property developer and it is undersized and not upto the job...

This link is about the NIBE Fighter 360 exhaust heat pump... Manufacturers need to ensure their dealers and installers are only selling to qualified people as its the manufacturers who are getting the bad name as people dont understand the sizing rules etc!

This particular issue is going to end up in legal proceedings I think as many thousands of people in same position.

See link:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=2959648

I see this problem all of time, In my opinion, this biggest cause of concern is how heatpumps, in general, are rated, which is 7Cdb 6Cwb, this figure is way to high for a nominal rating in cooler climates.
Many specifiers, do not really understand, by how much a heat pump looses performance at lower temperatures. They tend to use the nominal rating (as if it were a boiler) to match there heat load requirements. Yes more could be done on training, but to me it would be easier to re rate these machines to a more realistic condition. (i can not see many specifiers changing their true understanding of heat pumps)
In NZ manufactures have to supply equipment with data at 2Cdb, even though we could argue that this still could be cooler, in many cases it does include the defrosting element in the averaged performance (some take total energy produced over a time, devided by this time Kwhrs/hr, (same for the power) others just take peak energy produced kw, so we do still have a units that would seem to be OK, but practically become undersized, due to defrost

Interesting points, MF. The problems seem to be fairly systemic as I'm noting over the past few years. Perhaps also some level of 'wishful thinking', in many cases.

Perhaps the heat-pump suppliers should provide a performance rating curve, or table over a temp range going down into the sub-zero range?

There will also have to be some level of industry-wide training for system designers, so that the correct heat-delivery units & system design is matched with the available heat-pump performance.

I also suspect that many heat-pump designers simply do not know how their systems will perform under cold air conditions.

The history here appears to be American equipment that was mainly used in the mid states where temps below -5 were rare. Add our absolutely cheap gas and electricity and there was no incentive to make them any better. We still have gas prices in Canada of $.17/m3 in some places.

Nibe generally make ok stuff but this particular system is a disaster. Lived in a 70sqm apartment for six months with one of these in it and regularly had bills of over €450 even though the apartment was A3 rated. My neighbour was over €700.
These things suck out so much air that they actually remove more heat than they produce, so the only way to heat the house is with the immersion.
Absolute disaster in every case i've come across them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigfreeze

Nibe generally make ok stuff but this particular system is a disaster. Lived in a 70sqm apartment for six months with one of these in it and regularly had bills of over €450 even though the apartment was A3 rated. My neighbour was over €700.
These things suck out so much air that they actually remove more heat than they produce, so the only way to heat the house is with the immersion.
Absolute disaster in every case i've come across them.

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I agree what a stupid design the system is...

You are sucking warm air out of the rooms and recovering it, you then have to pull cold air in from the outside to replace the air that has been extracted only to be heated again by the same heat that you have just extracted? Only benefit is that you are pulling fresh air into the building, a glorified extractor fan!

Heat recovery systems on commercial buildings are just that they bring fresh air into the building which is heated by the recovered air from the extract. They are not meant to provide the whole buildings heating requirements! "

Quote:

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Originally Posted by back2space

I agree what a stupid design the system is...

You are sucking warm air out of the rooms and recovering it, you then have to pull cold air in from the outside to replace the air that has been extracted only to be heated again by the same heat that you have just extracted? Only benefit is that you are pulling fresh air into the building, a glorified extractor fan!

Heat recovery systems on commercial buildings are just that they bring fresh air into the building which is heated by the recovered air from the extract. They are not meant to provide the whole buildings heating requirements! "

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The Nibe "experts" came out to mine when I lived in the apartment. Fully unaware of course that they weren't dealing with some poor innocent they could fob off with a BS explanation. God they came out when some amount of crap before I stopped them in their tracks. Telling me the trickle vents in all windows would have to be open for system to work.
I asked them to tell me how many cubic meters the unit removed per hour, (quick calculation on the phone), then asked them how a unit removing 3.8kw an hour was supposed to heat a room when it was only producing 2.6. Cue silence and oh we'll come back tomorrow with more equipment to check it out. Never heard from them again. Cancelled my lease 2 weeks later

In Canada, where for new houses, HRVs (heat recovery ventilators) are usually mandated, not optional (unfortunately), I can think of only one product that has an external heat source built in and is used for primary heat.

The installation of these ventilators is almost always kept separate from the boiler (when used) or is put in parallel with the furnace so they can share ductwork. Unless one had a heatload of 2 or 3kw you would not even think of using the exhaust air as a source of heat for a HP.

I hope I am understanding how the NIBE system is working!!!!