F Gas Support

.


There have been questions and speculation in various posts about who will ‘police’ the new F Gas regulations in the UK.

DEFRA have announced collaboration with the UK Environment Agency, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, LACORS (Local Authorities' Coordinators of Regulatory Services) and the devolved administrations to prepare for the implementation of a risk-based enforcement approach to the EC Fluorinated Greenhouse Gases and Ozone Regulations and related GB Regulations that create offences and penalties for failure to comply.

Here are some links, first to DEFRA’s web site, now updated:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...fgas/index.htm

Further down the page they have also announced a dedicated support team administered for them by Enviros and posted a leaflet.

F Gas Support
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...rt-leaflet.pdf

It’s only just been set up following the entry into force of the UK implementing laws, February 15th - so expect a bedding in process.
The intention is for the support unit to handle administrative queries form operators, contractors etc. They are NOT refrigeration engineers, and won’t be able to handle technical queries, but they will help with compliance issues.

For administrative purposes, they are combining the enforcement procedures of F Gas (HFCs etc) with the Ozone Depleting Substances Regulations (HCFCs – R22 and the like).

I stress that this is UK only - enforcement measures may be different in the other EU countries to achieve the same results.


.

Argus
Thanks for keeping us so well informed.
Personally I am beginning to find it all a bit depressing.
Grizzly

A quick question to any of the members of this forum from other EU member states, what is your country doing about FGas?
It would be nice to know if us in the UK are doing more or less that you.

Ian

.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Argus
Thanks for keeping us so well informed.

---

No problem at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Personally I am beginning to find it all a bit depressing.

---

Why so?

The competence requirements in the F Gas regulations just address some of the issues that have been complained about for years – namely so-called ‘cowboys’ (those with little knowledge or experience in the RAC business), doing work that they may not be capable of. From what I have seen of the content of the impending ‘new’ qualifications, they are not particularly demanding if you already know what you’re doing.
The big problem will be the logistics of getting the ‘qualifications’ and the interim documents to all who need them in the time available.

Otherwise, for contractors, it’s little short of a business bonanza that many are ignoring. Perhaps I’m being a bit harsh, but the compliance requirements for operators to keep their equipment in good order through leakage checks and to employ people who know what they are doing is only what used to be called Best Practice.

Seriously, the alternative, if all this is found not to work, is the prospect of restrictions and eventual ban on HFCs.
This proposal to ban HFCs was in the early drafts of the F Gas regulations put to the European Parliament and removed by an amendment vote.
It is still lurking in the woodwork and could get put back in.


.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pooh

A quick question to any of the members of this forum from other EU member states, what is your country doing about FGas?
It would be nice to know if us in the UK are doing more or less that you.

Ian

---

Ian, there was a lengthy report compiled last year or in 2006 by the commission that dealt with precisely that issue, country by country.

I think it's still on the web somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

In the main, you'd be surprised what other EU states have in place.

.

Argus
I have the report but I am trying to see what the rest of the EU are doing to bring people up to the required level, as you know we do not have a true competence exam at present as a monkey can be taught to pass the Refrigerant handling qualification in two days. My worry is that the replacement being discussed at present will only take four days approximately with a four hour assessment at the end so will then legalise the cowboys to work anywhere in Europe.
It is being said that industry does not want the requirements of FGas certification to be to hard. I beleive we should fall in line with the other trades and make the NVQ level two the minimum requirement if not the level three as per the electricians.
It stikes me it is going to be a quick fix and not the opportunity for our industry to clean up its act which a lot of people wanted it to be.

Ian

I'd be be quite happy for it to be a level 2 or 3 nvq, IF i am able to train and work until i meet the required level. If i'm made 'illegal' overnight and need to go to college for six months or however long these things take then i would have to go and do something else as i cold not afford to be without income for any time and all my customers would go elsewhere.
I'm sure i would learn a lot from extra training, but this does not make me a cowboy now, just honest.

A while ago i got into a discussion with another fridge guy, i was saying that the industry has more than its fare share of bodgers, he disagreed. I then asked him to name one of his competitors that he would have work on something he owned or to recommend to a friend. He couldn't name one.

The more i think about it the more i think nvqs are the way to go. It would be nice though if something was done to help the engineers who have been in the trade a long time and are near retirement etc (grandfather rights?)

The f gas leak testing should be like an mot test with a ticket given every year if the system passes, all traceable etc. With a list of checks for the engineer to do on site so we are all singing from the same song sheet, preforably in a book we can carry to point to with ockard customers, its no good if i'm saying i need to check back in a few weeks on a repair and another guy just goes off for a coffee and the checks it, etc. This needs to be numpty proof.

Our whole country seems to be run on a shoestring:o

Jon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monkey spanners

I'd be be quite happy for it to be a level 2 or 3 nvq, IF i am able to train and work until i meet the required level. If I'm made 'illegal' overnight and need to go to college for six months or however long these things take then i would have to go and do something else as i cold not afford to be without income for any time and all my customers would go elsewhere.
I'm sure i would learn a lot from extra training, but this does not make me a cowboy now, just honest.

A while ago i got into a discussion with another fridge guy, i was saying that the industry has more than its fare share of bodgers, he disagreed. I then asked him to name one of his competitors that he would have work on something he owned or to recommend to a friend. He couldn't name one.

The more i think about it the more i think nvqs are the way to go. It would be nice though if something was done to help the engineers who have been in the trade a long time and are near retirement etc (grandfather rights?)

The f gas leak testing should be like an mot test with a ticket given every year if the system passes, all traceable etc. With a list of checks for the engineer to do on site so we are all singing from the same song sheet, preferably in a book we can carry to point to with ockard customers, its no good if I'm saying i need to check back in a few weeks on a repair and another guy just goes off for a coffee and the checks it, etc. This needs to be numpty proof.

Our whole country seems to be run on a shoestring:o

Jon

---

Well said M.S.
Speaking as a "grandfather" I don't need special treatment just! Recognition of my existing C&G Qualifications. Although I do know Lots of extremely good engineers that I do recommend, who do not have formal Qualifications ( in refrigeration).
Meaning some of the best engineers I know have HNC etc in marine engineering and have "migrated" into refrigeration.Full members of the "Institute" to boot.
How it progresses time will tell?
Grizzly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pooh

Argus
I have the report but I am trying to see what the rest of the EU are doing to bring people up to the required level, as you know we do not have a true competence exam at present as a monkey can be taught to pass the Refrigerant handling qualification in two days. My worry is that the replacement being discussed at present will only take four days approximately with a four hour assessment at the end so will then legalise the cowboys to work anywhere in Europe.
It is being said that industry does not want the requirements of F Gas certification to be to hard. I believe we should fall in line with the other trades and make the NVQ level two the minimum requirement if not the level three as per the electricians.
It stikes me it is going to be a quick fix and not the opportunity for our industry to clean up its act which a lot of people wanted it to be.

Ian

---

It’s good that you have the report – when you strip the varnish off, it’s evident that the UK is nowhere near the top of the table and not much has changed since it was written.

I’ll stress that I’m not personally involved in training, other than occasionally providing specialised presentations, so my interest in the training issue in the F Gas regulation is peripheral to the other main elements in it, so I’ll defer to your greater knowledge in this area, but there is a temptation to sometimes attach issues to these regulations that are not always present.

It’s a fact that EU regulations are often poorly drafted, sometimes failing to adequately address all the issues, and in some respects this one is no exception.

However, re-reading the relevant part (article 6.1) it seems to me that it is not intended to address the greater issue of what qualifications we accept to do the job and how long it takes to obtain them – in other words whether it’s NVQ level 2, level three, 5 years experience, degree level or even a transition of skills from other disciplines. Specifying or deciding which full professional or vocational qualifications are needed to work in the RAC sector is not part of this regulation.

What the F Gas regulation sets out to do (and clearly says so in at the start of article 6) is to provide a framework whereby minimum requirements can be assessed for individuals in the installation and maintenance plus the other mandatory tasks in the regulation so that they can transfer their skills within the EU, also to provide a transferable certification scheme for the companies employing them.
I stress minimum requirements, because it is impossible to harmonise European educational and vocational qualifications at this stage. The regulation is specific on this point.

The UK Government is often accused of ‘gold plating’ European legislation to suit its own agenda. DEFRA and BERR are quite sensitive to this and don’t wish to be seen leading industry by the nose and turning this into something that it isn’t. They also realise that getting things done in time is a tall order.

To sum up the scope of the regulation, I do not believe that the F Gas regulations are intended to address the questions of underlying qualifications, just what is needed to demonstrate a basic level of skills that allow the individual to transfer them within the EU (which is essential by European law) and to carry out the other tasks, including leakage checking and refrigerant recovery.

The frameworks of these skills within the scope of the F Gas law are laid out in the adopted implementing regulation and it is expected that training protocols will be developed within the foreseeable future to put these in place.

Getting all this done in the time-scale allotted is another issue. Many of us remain to be convinced that it can be done.

Estimates vary about how many individuals of all levels and abilities there are out there in the UK in reality no-one really knows. I’ve heard estimates of 30,000 or 40,000 – think of a realistic number, then start doing the arithmetic.

Is there money to be made? Undoubtedly.



.

Here's how it's been working in France:

In order to buy HCFCs and HFCs you have to be registered with the Prefecture (regional admin authority). To do this you have to send them various documents including:

copy of suitable qualification

copies of receipts proving ownership of certain tools listed by them (electronic gas detector, vac pump, recuperation bottle, etc).

company registration information

list of types of equipment you would be working on

They will then issue you with a letter stating your registration number on it.

This letter must be presented to your distributors when you open an account. They note your number and can then, legally, sell you gas.

Your obligation is to keep a log of what you do with the gas and note your stocks at the end of each year together with a list of gasses recuperated.

After five years you send these archives to the Prefecture and if they are satisfied that you have been following good working practices they will reissue you with a new letter covering you for the next five years, and so on.

I'm getting to the point now!

It sounds to me that in England you are going to have the same situation with local aurthorities handling the show. So, be warned that (possibly due to a lack of man power to police the situation) this method is being abandonned as it has been a hopeless failure. Distributors could not care less wheather you have this accreditation or not and sell gas to anyone who appears to be a proffesional.

A new method is now in place and will be implemented as of July 2009. It is the same as that described above with three diffeneces:

1 Private organisations will be running the show

2 You will be visited and interviewed during the five year period to examine the state of your equipment and your level of competence.

3 It will cost me, as a one man band, 3500 euros to receive my certificate.

This is how they are going to get it together in the time frame. By making us pay:(

I was shocked when I received that quote this week and now thinking about it I don't think France will be the only country to come up with such a solution. So, as I said, be warned.
________
Laguna Beach Resort Jomtien

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by expat

Here's how it's been working in France:

In order to buy HCFCs and HFCs you have to be registered with the Prefecture (regional admin authority). To do this you have to send them various documents including:

copy of suitable qualification

copies of receipts proving ownership of certain tools listed by them (electronic gas detector, vac pump, recuperation bottle, etc).

company registration information

list of types of equipment you would be working on

They will then issue you with a letter stating your registration number on it.

This letter must be presented to your distributors when you open an account. They note your number and can then, legally, sell you gas.

Your obligation is to keep a log of what you do with the gas and note your stocks at the end of each year together with a list of gasses recuperated.

After five years you send these archives to the Prefecture and if they are satisfied that you have been following good working practices they will reissue you with a new letter covering you for the next five years, and so on.

I'm getting to the point now!

It sounds to me that in England you are going to have the same situation with local aurthorities handling the show. So, be warned that (possibly due to a lack of man power to police the situation) this method is being abandonned as it has been a hopeless failure. Distributors could not care less wheather you have this accreditation or not and sell gas to anyone who appears to be a proffesional.

A new method is now in place and will be implemented as of July 2009. It is the same as that described above with three diffeneces:

1 Private organisations will be running the show

2 You will be visited and interviewed during the five year period to examine the state of your equipment and your level of competence.

3 It will cost me, as a one man band, 3500 euros to receive my certificate.

This is how they are going to get it together in the time frame. By making us pay:(

I was shocked when I received that quote this week and now thinking about it I don't think France will be the only country to come up with such a solution. So, as I said, be warned.

---

Of course it will be expensive -so is corgi (lets not go there) but that is what will drive out 99% of the cowboys. Choke off the supply of refrigerant and they will soon go.

Bring it on..

Multisync
london
________
UNTOLDSECRET

Code:

---


Choke off the supply of refrigerant and they will soon go

---

I am hoping you're right.

One other thing. We've been sent leaflets from one association which we are being encouraged to show to our customers. It is a pracied explanation of the end users' obligations concerning the importance of tight systems, the need for this certificate to be presented before the end users should allow techs to work on their equipment and the fines/sanctions involved for non compliance.
Most interesting though was a foot note attatched to the part concerning the certification necessary for any manipulation of gas. It reads that even quick fit couplings for two precharged units is considered a manipulatioin of fluid. Now that is good but I would say it would be better to insist that all units be sold uncharged as this will remove all temptation.
________
Live sex

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by multisync

Of course it will be expensive -so is corgi (lets not go there) but that is what will drive out 99% of the cowboys. Choke off the supply of refrigerant and they will soon go.

Bring it on..

Multisync
london

---

Hopefully it will drive out the cowboy operators of the equipment as well. I recently lost a customer (not losing sleep over it) who got the hump because I would not top up a couple of systems. He had decided in his wisdom that it was cheaper to buy the refrigerant from a large and well known wholesaler himself and add the odd 30 to 40 kg's every few months rather than have the leaks repaired.

His comment on F gas when explained to him was "what are they going to do to stop me?".

I am not doing it for him so someone must be??

Not only do we need to stop non qualified personnel from purchasing refrigerant but we also need a way of reporting operators who feel free to disregard the law. This needs to be backed up with serious consequences for those operators who disregard it.
________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA CARD

Well done djbe, you're a breath of fresh air in an industry that has too long had you're average Joe giving it a blow because the rewards look enticing.

I got a quote this week from one of the private organisations that will be dealing with our certificates to purchase gas. It frightened me to say the least (3500euros for five years).

On the up side I was in a distributors today and when I spoke of this he said that he knew of the impending regulation. That as from next year he could no longer sell gas to anyone not presenting this certificate. Unfortunately this law was already in place but not being adhered to, so only time will tell.
________
Problems With Zoloft

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by djbe

Hopefully it will drive out the cowboy operators of the equipment as well. I recently lost a customer (not losing sleep over it) who got the hump because I would not top up a couple of systems. He had decided in his wisdom that it was cheaper to buy the refrigerant from a large and well known wholesaler himself and add the odd 30 to 40 kg's every few months rather than have the leaks repaired.

His comment on F gas when explained to him was "what are they going to do to stop me?".

I am not doing it for him so someone must be??

Not only do we need to stop non qualified personnel from purchasing refrigerant but we also need a way of reporting operators who feel free to disregard the law. This needs to be backed up with serious consequences for those operators who disregard it.

---

Report it to you local Council or the Environmental Agency, you don't have to give your name.

Quote:
To report the illegal dumping of hazardous waste, call the Environment Agency Incident Hotline 0800 80 70 60 free, 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.
Hazardous waste could be asbestos sheets, containers of liquid or powder chemicals, paints and other waste that might be harmful to human health or to the environment.
Please note that incident attendance is based on risk and the following applies:

• The Environment Agency will attend incidents that they believe have a major effect on the environment within 2 hours (or 4 hours outside normal time).
• The normal response time for minor incidents is within 7 days and attendance is coordinated with other routine site visits in the same area.
• The Environment Agency will provide feedback on incidents to the person who reported it. They will advise them what the problem was and what they have done to fix it.

Contacting the Environment Agency
General enquiries: 08708 506 506
Enquiries (non UK calls): 00 44 1709 389 201
Floodline: 0845 988 1188
Website: www.environment-agency.gov.uk
The Environment Agency have published the following information in answer to many of the questions that people ask about their site:

• Report a pollution incident: Don't ignore it, Report it! See above for details and guidelines.
• Use their search facility: If you have a question on another topic, use their Search facility to look for the information you need.
• Making complaints or commendations: This section gives information on making complaints and commendation and how they handle feedback.
• Consultations: They carry out many consultations with the public and business, before they make decisions that might affect people.
• Other Enquiries: You can use their Enquiry form to request any information that you cannot find on this sites.
• Offices: Find out how you can get in touch with your local Environment Agency office.

Taken From: http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/BathNES/tr...flytipping.htm
________
Web shows