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In the UK there is advanced talk of making everyone account for refrigerant useage (http://www.acrib.org.uk/).
Does anyone have to account for every last kg and if so what type of report do you do.
I ask because at the moment we don't account for our useage but I know that time is running out.
f-gas will require end users to maintain a comprehensive refrigerant useage log. To be able to demonstrate if required that they are reducing emmissions. Refrigerant suppliers will have to maintain records and data as to sales of refrigerants, both new installations and service requirements. Also in these days of comprehensive contracts it is good sense for companies to monitor and record purchases, and useage. Most end users frown on drip feeding refrigerant into leaky systems apart from it being illegal under the enviromental protection act. If a system has an unexplained reduction in refrigerant volume, the system must have a leak. :rolleyes:
I keep records of every job that I have done which is bigger than an air-conditioner.
It helps a lot to locate problems when I get called again and again.
My refrigerant supplier, keeps records of every 1 ton bottle that he sells and when I had water in the R-22 bottle, I have located through his records, one more with the same problem.
I think for the long run, it will do both sides good.
Chemi :)
I'm quite aware of this and we do not mis-use refrigerant. We just don't record useage at the moment.
Lets say that we do a new install and it needs additional charge - well we get the bottle out of the van and we charge to the recommendations. We record the amount charged on the commissioning sheet but don't have a central register. If you care to root through all of our service sheets etc then you can see where all the gas goes to - it's just that we don't put it into a central register. Seems like just more paperwork to me to get to the end result.
After all, as a business owner, if I buy a cannister of fridge gas then I want to make sure that all of it is charged to the customers. My service sheets ensure this so why the central register?
There is NO "central register". Suppliers will have to keep records of who they supply refrigerant to, both the company and the individual engineer when it becomes a compulsary requirement to have a refrigerant handling certificate. The refrigeration company should already be keeping records as to when and where they are using refrigerants. End users (big and small) where the property's are accessible to the general public should have a register of hazardous materials (not only things like asbestos but refrigerants and oils) this requires information on location, type and amount of hazardous material. Nb. when was the last time you drained the oil out of a hermetique compressor before disposing of it. Better start now, refrigeration oil in compressors is a hazardous material and requires a waste disposal licence to dispose of, and dead comprssors cannot be handled by a carrier unless licenced or the oil drained..And you thought the EU wasn,t going to screw your life up any further. :rolleyes:
Hi Frank...our company belongs to the"Refcom register" which I believe is a voluntary organisation...however we use it as part of out company letterhead format so it is well recognised by clients.(Some have enquired if we belong)Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
When we take delivery of any size cylinder to our works it is logged either in a "new cylinder" or a "recovery cylinder" log....these logs are then used by technicians when they remove or return any cylinders to our works....the info logged includes Cylinder number, Date,Techs name,Site to which cylinder going,Date of cylinder return to works..........Then each cylinder is provided with a printed card which contains the following information...cylinder delivery date,cylinder collection date(eventually),Type of refrigerant,size of cylinder,Cylinder number......this card is then filled in by the technician each time refrigerant is transferred to a unit by giving the following further information......Site name,date,Unit oem,unit serial number and location,amount of refrigerant used,amount of refrigerant left in the cylinder.
After the bottle is emptied and collected by the supplier the card is filed and is available for inspection by the refcom inspector who makes unannounced visits from time to time to carry out random checks.
The recovery cylinders have their own similar cards but are filled in with roughly the same information except that the amount of refrigerant removed AND refitted to a unit is included.
When attending sites we carry the appropriate size of scales to cope...we tend to use only up to 65kg cylinders to make transporting easier...this can mean a lot of cylinders when working on large machines......hope this helps...by the way...we book to the nearest 100 g.
In holland we have to keep records of all refrigerant up to 100g
Every installation has a logbook where all the work has to be noted.
Installations have to be competely checked for leaks depending on the amount of refrigerant up to 30Kg once a year up to 300 kg 4 times a year obove 300 kg 12 times a year above 1000 kg permanent control.
These routine inspections means a complete leaktest on installations, noting it in the logbook, complete with the working papers.
repairs concerning leaks has to be noted, the amount of regrigerant removed or added has to be noted.
Every bottle has to be accouted for, regular inspections of the bookkeeping are normal.
AL in Al a hell of al lot of work extra, mind you after some years it becomes normal.
Regards Victor
Its on the bottom of my sheets done by the last two big chiller companys i've worked for, have to say useage of oil, refrigerant put in and reclaimed out in kgs. The oil in ltrs. My current company we all have to log where we have taken waste oil and reclaim refrig too, plus all bottle serial numbers.
Well, lets put this into perspective.
We buy a bottle of gas from, say, NRS (Climate Centre). They record the bottle serial number and you sign the sheet.
The bottle is on your van and you use it to either charge a new install (you record the charge amount on your job sheet) or you top up a system (systems) after repairing leaks etc (and you record the charge on your job sheet.
Now, you take the empty bottle back to NRS and the serial number is recorded on the return sheet, which you sign.
What more information do you have to record :confused:
All the refrigerant has been recorded.
If we recover refrigerant then we produce a service /job sheet and the refrigerant is weighed in to a recovery bottle which is recorded under the waste control paperwork. :confused: and recorded at NRS who make you sign a sheet when you return the bottle for destruction. (serial numbers recorded etc)
I look forward to be enlightnend
What more do we need to do? :confused:
I agree Frank but your last only has one answer really and that is "please don't ask an EU polititian" :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
Hi again Frank....all well and good in your examples but when you have bottles delivered in bulk to your works as we do...maybe fifty cylinders of various gasses on occasion....a technician might go to say two or three jobs in a day if only carrying out minor works....the next day he might be using different gasses so the previous days gasses are left (and booked back in ) at the works ...these same gasses might be taken out to yet again different sites by yet different technicians...who might or might not use some of the previously part used bottles etc etc....we find that for the type of work we do that the system we use suits us best....as the system you use obviously would suit you best....any gas used is also booked on the clients individual job sheet and is signed for....however we are able to pinpoint any usage of gas at a stroke using the system that we employ...I am not saying that it would suit everyone but serves us well...regards Superheatman.