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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grizzly
nike 123.
And in in your own words, Your point is?
Grizzly
Maybe I am wrong, but reading articles here on RE about amonia my impression is that lot of ammonia guys think, that is safer to work with ammonia, because they could smell it, than with fluorocarbons. I was trying to add statistic to that perspective.
Maybe, I shouldn't reply to your post, yet, I have needed only respond to this thread. :o
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Nike
Thanks I now understand the point you are trying to make.
I do view Ammonia as safer BUT only in the fact that The dangers of Ammonia are more obvious than *****s. There for People approach it with caution thinking about their Helth and Safety.
No I don't think its safer than *****s BUT PEOPLE ADOPT A SAFER WORKING ATTITUDE TOWARDS IT, because the dangers are more obvious.
Because of these dangers I take more precautions when working with Ammonia than I might sometimes with *****s.
Therefore because of that point I sometimes state that ***** is more dangerous because it is taken for granted more often! Not because it actually is.
Grizzly
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Hi, nike123 :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nike123
Maybe I am wrong, but reading articles here on RE about amonia my impression is that lot of ammonia guys think, that is safer to work with ammonia, because they could smell it, than with fluorocarbons. I was trying to add statistic to that perspective.
Maybe, I shouldn't reply to your post, yet, I have needed only respond to this thread. :o
Seems we all make a little mess here;)
No you are not wrong.....your impression is ok, but that has no meaning it is safer to work with ammonia ....NO...definitely NOT safer......it is very very dangerous ....(by smell we only have an early warning) and only trained persons should attempt to do repairs or whatever......
.....work with ammonia is more dangerous then work with fluorocarbons what does not mean they are harmless.... .......there is no safety refrigerant...
it is only a question about different attitude when approaching to problem ......with ammonia I am always at red alert.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly
No I don't think its safer than *****s BUT PEOPLE ADOPT A SAFER WORKING ATTITUDE TOWARDS IT, because the dangers are more obvious.
Because of these dangers I take more precautions when working with Ammonia than I might sometimes with *****s.
seems Grizzly explain that much better;)
Best regards, Josip :)
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grizzly
Nike
Thanks I now understand the point you are trying to make.
I do view Ammonia as safer BUT only in the fact that The dangers of Ammonia are more obvious than *****s. There for People approach it with caution thinking about their Helth and Safety.
No I don't think its safer than *****s BUT PEOPLE ADOPT A SAFER WORKING ATTITUDE TOWARDS IT, because the dangers are more obvious.
Because of these dangers I take more precautions when working with Ammonia than I might sometimes with *****s.
Therefore because of that point I sometimes state that ***** is more dangerous because it is taken for granted more often! Not because it actually is.
Grizzly
I totally understand you. I am electrician, and when I work with electrical equipment or installations I always disconnect them from power source. What could be safer than electrical equipment without electricity in them.
But peoples are prone to make mistakes and some things are more deadlier than other when you make mistake, no matter of all precautions.
So, my advice is, regardless you work with ammonia or fluorocarbons, be aware of electrical current and fools!:D:D
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nike123
I totally understand you. I am electrician, and when I work with electrical equipment or installations I always disconnect them from power source. What could be safer than electrical equipment without electricity in them.
But peoples are prone to make mistakes and some things are more deadlier than other when you make mistake, no matter of all precautions.
So, my advice is, regardless you work with ammonia or fluorocarbons, be aware of electrical current and fools!:D:D
Using the Viking Edict....
We all agree then care should be taken ALLWAYS!
But it dosn't hurt to remind each other occationally does it!
Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ons/icon14.gif
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
If there are any beginners out there, they should be reading this thread and the material linked in the posts....
Josip said it best. There are no safe refrigerants. And when working on any refrigerant system you should be on red alert. Things happen when they are least expected.;)
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
I am being told several different facts by those wishing to sell me compressors for my new cascade co2/ nh3 system. screw compressors slip and are not efficient for co2 and that screws are more efficient than recipts period. I here most if not all co2 systems in the UK use recips. Nestles built a cascade system in the US, it is considered to be a flop because while it works fine it is very inefficient. I am going to CA this weekend to visit an operating warehouse there and attend their open house. Both companies swear by their systems. Who has information to support one or the other or both? I ask the recip supporter why do you install recipts? he said the molecular weight of co2 is 44, nh3 is 17, co2 is more than 10 times heavier, I thought 17X10 =170 but maybe it isn't the same as regular math more like the rector scale earthquakes are rated on, each number is way more severe not just a little stronger. The other company's refrigeration guy is from Denmark, he seemed fine with a Mycom screw. He wants to fly us to Japan to visit the manufacturing plant and the new Wal-mart facility in operation. What say you all?
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
If you are referring to the Savannah, Ga Sam's club, I toured it prior to Grand Opening. I was favorably impressed with the installation, and the performance. The R404a rack was operating at about a -19 deg F suction which is comparable to direct expansion Sam's Clubs. The energy consumption is being monitored by a disinterested third party, as are some other installations of CO2 circulating supermarkets.
I haven't seen any of the audit results, which makes me wonder if the energy usage is not as good. If Walmart has a cold storage combo with CO2 and Ammonia, it lends credibility to circulating CO2 as a brine/refrigerant.
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
I would much sooner have a hydrocarbon plant or an Amonia plant next to my home then any other! The hydrocarbon will sort its self out in quick order over the ground, and in fire it will simply flare off with little left over products of burning.
As with amonia, and in a leak I will smell it long befor there is danger, or in big leak a wet rag will get me to a safe area.
But with HFCs HCFCs, there will be little escap in event of fire, it will poisen the air in such a way that no simple wet rag will get you to safety as it flairs off, a larg leak will not be knoticed with out electrical sensors befor it is too late.
The oil we use is flammible all ready thus fire risk is a weak excuse, the toxicity of the byproducts makes toxicity a poor excuse. So in the end my trust lies with HC and NH3!
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
The simple answer to all queiries on ammonia
from a commisioning / trouble shooting perspective
----try to align an open drive compressor with sparky jumping up and down on pack
let loose a little ammonia .... and smile while he runs out the door, whistle and finish up
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Hi Lazarus
That works well with clients who want to watch everything you do.
Good trick is if they are hanging around get them to give you a lift with a head or side cover, one good wiff and I bet you don't see them for a while.
Paul
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Try this one. The maintenance guy at our local dairy, well the only dairy, this is a small island. He used to cut an opening about 2 to 3" sq into the side of an old 1 gallon metal oil can. Put the lid on and then purge a little Ammonia into the can. After which he would take a liquid dropper and drip one small drop of water through the opening. The can would collapse in on itself!
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
I have worked with ammonia for more than twenty years now and still deal with it every day. I have about 20,000 pounds of ammonia in my small system. I'd like to address the original topic of NH3 "finding" the water in the bucket. Every expert will tell you ammonia is drawn to moisture, and given the right circumstance NH3 vapor will in fact "find" water. It isn't magic or even a fairy tale. I am certain the story was highly embellished to awe the novice, but it was based upon well documented fact. Ammonia likes water.
I have been a refrigeration engineer for more than 20 years and I am trained as a HazMat responder to deal with ammonia releases, and frankly I find it to be terribly exciting more than anything. Ammonia isn't the boogie man everyone makes it out to be. I'll be rebuilding NH3 pumps and valves, replacing old pipe, moving thousands of pounds of ammonia around the system , and giving my compressors a good going over during the next few weeks before production.
I LIKE AMMONIA!
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greengrocer
In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
I don't see where this has anything to do with ammonia systems other than the scratching the crown jewels part. Sweat and ammonia makes for an interesting case of diaper rash in the summer.
Other than that, the rest is guilt by association.
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greengrocer
In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
Probably, he didn't have shower for a few weeks. Any connections with ammonia refrigeration plant?
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greengrocer
In the early 70's I used to attend Willesden Tech (London) as part of my Frigidaire apprenticeship. A guy in my class worked for the Lyons Maid ice cream factory / distribution centre in Greenford - Big NH3 system.
We could smell this guy coming down the hall before we saw him. In class he was "billy no mates" because no one wanted to sit next to him and he continually scratched his "crown jewels". Come break time we'd go to the canteen and this guy had to have 6 spoons of coffee and 8 sugars in his drink before he could taste it. Boy was I glad that Frididaire didn't make any NH3 plant.
I liked the comment Greengrocer, how many of us older "Stinkies" have stood in a plant room smelling of Ammonia.
And said to the new trainee "smell! what smell?"
My wife goes nuts for days after I have used my purge lines and returned them to the car.
She sometimes forgets that it is my working vehicle.
Grizzly
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
it's not the refrigerant that is dangerous, it is the idiot with the wrench. Rented a house with a Arkla gas AC, called landlord for service. he called his company for service. When the idiot could not solve the problem, he stuck a tube of lip balm under the sail switch. I noticed the safety violation and called the land lord but he had already paid for the "service".
I think NH3 is safer. NH3 is not used in the local residential market leaving R22 and the like. Sometimes I run into R22 that pops-out of an oil trap when brazing. Hate that, because I know what it does.
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hendry
haven't been there lately ...
hearsay, they found cheaper refrigeration "specialist" ...
we move on ... with dignity!
yeah .. i've news on their latest leakages.
last friday!
this round from an abandoned northstar ice machine!
anyway, i only observe from as far as 100km away.
Hendry, on wesak day holiday.
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Your never too old to learn!
Whilst purging off a faulty EVRA 20 (Hot Gas Line Solenoid Valve).
I managed to find a little pocket of liquid Ammonia which sprayed out,when I broke the seal between the armature and body.
No problem I thought as I was prepared and had carefully loosened the bolts, diagonally.
So whilst holding my breath I snapped shut the valve and made a Hasty retreat to-wards the plant room door.
Having reached the safety of the fresh air outside the plant room. I took a big gulp of Air.
About the same time as I realised that the fresh air stank of Ammonia, a precious part of my anatomy started to burn. Burn maybe not, but it was getting rather warm in that region!
Only then did it dawn on me that the stream of liquid Ammonia had saturated
the waistband of my overalls.
Which now having found a heat source was boiling off.
So instead of fresh air I was breathing high concentrations of Ammonia vapour.
By this time the 2 site engineers that had led the rapid Exodus from the plant room.
Were doubled up in laughter at the sight of yours truly jumping up and down gasping for air.
Whilst trying to rip my overalls off!!
I did laugh eventually once I had got my breath back.
Despite this minor setback. The valve was fixed (which had a perforated diaphragm).
And the Engineers gave me a nice bag of Crabs Claws packed in ice for supper. (It's a Ice Plant!)
Grizzly
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Reminds me of a like experience about 30 years ago. A technician and I were bleeding down a line section is a closed engine room, exhaust fans running max speed, and we had on the ammonia mask to go in and break the control valve loose after the line was depressurized (mostly). It was August in North Carolina and hotter than hades. About the same time we both dropped the wrenches and bailed out, headed to the emergency shower and were fighting as to who got to strip the overalls and save the "family jewels" first. I was the large one and got the shower, the tech, dragged a box over and was cooling himself in the emergency eye wash.
We got a big whoopie from the ladies on break at the back dock. Working with ammonia is so interesting...no telling what you will have to do day to day.
Ken
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TXiceman
Reminds me of a like experience about 30 years ago. A technician and I were bleeding down a line section is a closed engine room, exhaust fans running max speed, and we had on the ammonia mask to go in and break the control valve loose after the line was depressurized (mostly). It was August in North Carolina and hotter than hades. About the same time we both dropped the wrenches and bailed out, headed to the emergency shower and were fighting as to who got to strip the overalls and save the "family jewels" first. I was the large one and got the shower, the tech, dragged a box over and was cooling himself in the emergency eye wash.
We got a big whoopie from the ladies on break at the back dock. Working with ammonia is so interesting...no telling what you will have to do day to day.
Ken
"Ken" is Scottish slang for understand and as they say you have been there and had the teeshirt Iceman.
Yep!
It can be interesting and I am sure there are lots of the guys out there that can relate to both stories?
I just posted it because it's yet another amusing story.
With a happy ending!
Grizzly
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tycho
WROOOOOOOONG!!!!!
Phosgene gas IS NOT the same as mustard gas...
Phosgene is a mix of chlorine and carbon monoxide. It is colorless and odorless and it attacks the lungs, causing edemas... simply put, it drowns you in your own body fluids....
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Mustard gas is synthesized by treating sulfur dichloride with ethylene.
copied from wikipedia: Mustard gas is a strong vesicant (blister-causing agent). Due to its alkylating properties, it is also strongly mutagenic (causing damage to the DNA of exposed cells) and carcinogenic (cancer causing). Those exposed usually suffer no immediate symptoms. Within 4 to 24 hours the exposure develops into deep, itching or burning blisters wherever the mustard contacted the skin; the eyes (if exposed) become sore and the eyelids swollen, possibly leading to conjunctivitis and blindness. According to the Medical Management of Chemical Casualties handbook, there have been experimental cases in humans where the patient has suffered miosis, or pinpointing of pupils, as a result of the cholinomimetic activity of mustard. At very high concentrations, if inhaled, it causes bleeding and blistering within the respiratory system, damaging the mucous membrane and causing pulmonary edema. Blister agent exposure over more than 50% body surface area is usually fatal.
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you were correct in the fact that Phosgene was used as a weapon in WWI...
I'm sorry, but it Pssses me of to no end when people mix these two up... they are not the same, never have and never will
Whilst you are of course correct to say that Mustard gas and Phosgene are not the same, unfortunately, you accidently omitted the words "made from" :
Phosgene is carbonyl chloride, [COCl2] , it can be made from a mixture of chlorine [Cl2] and carbon monoxide [CO]. Mustard Gas is ββ'-Dichloroethyl Sulphide, [ (ClCH2.CH2)2S ] and as you stated, can be made from ethylene [CH2:CH2] and Sulphur dichloride [S2Cl2] .
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Re: The Mysteries of Ammonia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArthurLeigh
Whilst you are of course correct to say that Mustard gas and Phosgene are not the same, unfortunately, you accidently omitted the words "made from" :
Phosgene is carbonyl chloride, [COCl2] , it can be made from a mixture of chlorine [Cl2] and carbon monoxide [CO]. Mustard Gas is ββ'-Dichloroethyl Sulphide, [ (ClCH2.CH2)2S ] and as you stated, can be made from ethylene [CH2:CH2] and Sulphur dichloride [S2Cl2] .
pfffft...
:D:o