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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Hi.
No. My drains are not trapped. Should they be? I did read just yesterday about trapping drains. Mine just vent straight out to fresh air. One is just the unit pipe, one uses a flexible drain extender and one uses solid overflow pipe.
By trapping I am effectively creating a u-bend like a toilet? Why/how would that help odour? Would it not retain more moisture than it removed? I oculd understand it if my drains drained to a sewer or something... but just onto the gravel of my driveway...
Its probably something obvious I've done wrong!
:eek:
Cheers :)
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
ps, I have never tested the fan/gushing issue... I'm guessing not - why would it !?
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Often the drain is on the suction side of the fan. Air is sucked up through the drain line, preventing the water from draining properly. A trap allows gravity drain. If the water comes gushing out when the fan shuts off, that's a dead giveaway. It means the fan is holding in the water.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Blimey - that made sense.
I'll test it tomorrow. In a way I hope its not that, as its all installed neatly in trunking now. But, you lives you learns....
Cheers ! :)
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
ps, you're not a million miles away from my second home - but I think I'll leave that one to the pro's !
(Northport, Sarasota)
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reptile
Blimey - that made sense.
I'll test it tomorrow. In a way I hope its not that, as its all installed neatly in trunking now. But, you lives you learns....
Cheers ! :)
The trap can be installed on either end of the drain line... or anywhere in between.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reptile
No I didn't. But thanks for the useful input Mike. Any comments on why it smells?
Regards
Reptile.
Maybe all 3 a/c,s smell because of residual oil on evaporator fan motors. Eh, what size(kw) are these units and what about insulation, how good are are you at home insulation? Any schemes/rebates going on over there?.. mike.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Drain pan is at exhaust side of fan and it should not be any trap in drain line as it is noted in instalation manual.
Some smells are from new equipment and plastic could smell badly for some time (some ABS plastic is pretty smelly). Leave it as it is for 2-3 weeks and see if smell is weaken.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Local customer bought two splits from a green grocer friend of his who was closing down for his wife's dress shop,not your ordinary shop,all ball gowns and wedding desses at £800 plus (wife goes to charity shop!).Tried to convince to put new in but no he wouldn't budge so installed his second hand units after some considerable effort with compressed air to remove dust from indoor units,just as well as they would have ruined some stock (ceiling/cassettes).Although not dusty when fitted they made the shop smell like the inside of a potato sack :eek:.Popped a smellie jelly in each and now smells of prawn ****tails after the lemon is squeezed in.
Worth a look at the smellies as some folks are far more sensitive to odours than others,there often can be a slight pungent smell when shutting down units from ac,although at a few days old it's surprising with yours.http://http://www.ryanairconspares.c...esh-p-164.html
Worth looking at the amount of condensation you are removing per hour,is it an old house,damp proof etc this can all add to the amount of water exiting the drain.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Also, since this is DIY job and some beginner errors are most likely, it is worth to look that, in any time and mode of operation, drain pan is not flooded. It must be drained all the time and only covered with dripped water and not filled to any level. Failure here led to premature and excessive growth of algae and fungi.
Therefore indoor unit must sit perfectly horizontal or sloped slightly in direction of drain outlet.
If that doesn't help than put 2 tablets of AC-TABS from Rectorseal in drain pan.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
I will be checking the drains on all my units asap, but I did slope each indoor unit towards the drain side slightly. I also made sure to get a good angle on the holes through the wall.
The only grey area for me is the one that went through an external wall... as with the flare pipes, the drain pipe stuck out by only an inch or so, meaning I had to bend it quite significantly into an extender pipe. That is the only area I could potentially see a blockage... I did double check it at the time, and it is visibly draining, but i will double check by tipping water into the unit tonight.
Thankyou
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
I have left my pumps running for days and I can pull systems down to almost 250. U didn't put any pressure down into your pump? Oh well done on your install. U seem to have your head screwed on possibly more than some of the qualified people I have come across.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Just a follow up to this. The smell is getting better. One seems worse than the other 2 (which incidentally has the most complex drain run).
It is fine on cooling, or drying mode. But when it is just cycling, it is blowing out humid air which I think is the issue.
I know it is doing this as I've got a digital thermometers / hygrometers monitoring things. When it is cooling the humidity of the room drops, when it is cycling, the humidity rises, and the humidity of the direct air flow is particularly high. This can be seen on the louvre blades too, in the form of mild condensation.
My drains are definately draining, and clear, all angled downwards, and all units are very slightly sloped to the drain side. I've read of this behaviour on other threads.
Clearly there is going to residual water on the fins after a cooling cycle, so i'm guessing this is then being blown out in the air stream when cycling. I woke up to 85% RH in the bedroom this morning, as it was just cycling 22 degrees all night. The rest of the house was 65%
Ideally it needs to cut out when temp is reached. I suppose this could be done by wiring in a room based thermomostat, but guessing it would not do the compressor any good being cut and restarted! :confused:
Just after comments - am I using it too much? Maybe because it is not warm outside this is causing my issue. I'm more just testing then anything.
Cheers
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
You might try a low fan setting. Generally, high fan speed is more efficient while low fan speed removes more moisture.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reptile
I woke up to 85% RH in the bedroom this morning, as it was just cycling 22 degrees all night. The rest of the house was 65%.
I find this puzzling. Given a room temp of 22C and evap air off temp of 8C, I would expect the humidity to be down around 40%.
Of course, this assumes the unit runs long enough to remove the moisture. Possibly these units are oversized?
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
I was going to say, I think the bedroom one may well be oversized unfortunately. I do run on lowest fan setting though! I oversized 'deliberately' for many reasons - not least of all that I thought it could cool the entire upper floor on hot days!
The 8 degree air is only when on cooling cycle in high temp room. Normally 11 or 12 degrees on a low cool.
The problem comes when it is just cycling room air. I also think this is the slight odour I refer to. I could understand it not removing moisture in this case, but to increase it seems odd.
I'm just going to stop using it when it is not needed, testing it, and wait for summer :D
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reptile
It has not been subject (in its short life) to perfumes, smoke, pets, anything really - maybe one or two guffs. Modern house, no damp... would having the windows open a crack help any? Seems to defeat the point. Have got all 3 tonight running in fan mode for 5 hours on sleep timer. Have never used heat mode.
Grump!
;)
I leave my windows open on the catch when the a/c is on just to let some fresh air in.
I find my units have that sweaty smell about them when they have been in the bedroom over nght where the air gets stale or again in any room where the air is getting stale.
As the unit cools water from the air condenses on the coil inside, so for example your breath and other smells in the room could be cooking smells for instance will be contained in the moisture. This condenses on the coil and if the system doesnt run for long enough the odours dont get chance to be flushed away and the smell you can smell is basically the moisture coming off the coil and back into the air.
I find that if the unit is running for longer on hotter days the moisture contianing odours gradually is removed and flushed down the drain, having some fresh air coming into the room speeds up that process.
This is different from the cat wee smell that a lot of people report, this is down to a combination of bacteria growth from when the unit is turned off and the coil is still wet (best to run the fan mode for an hour at the end of the day) and manufactured smells like perfumes, building fabric smells, cooking smells etc. These gradually build up on the coil and is nessasary to clean the coils with specialist cleaner.
The reason this doesnt happen in heating mode is because the coil is warm and there is no condensing going on. IN heating mode the unit doesnt remove moisture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reptile
Just after comments - am I using it too much? Maybe because it is not warm outside this is causing my issue. I'm more just testing then anything.
Cheers
I have wall mounts in my flat and experience the same smells when outdoor temps are not that high as the unit is not running so much.
The moisture that is removed contains smells etc each time you sweat, breath out even fart lol! THis moisture then condenses on the coil and as long as the compressor is keeping that coil cold fresh smell free air will be released from the air outlet. THe longer that cycle runs the room is going to slowly start contianing less and less smells so any more moisture removed from the air gradually rinses the smell from the coil. Short cooling cycles dont allow this to happen. Im talking about natural smells obviously perfumes/deodorants can leave a build up on the coil which is harder to remove.
The longer the cooling cycle runs the more moisture it is going to remove and gradually those smells that have built up on the coil will be removed as the air in the room dries out. The ambient temperature and outdoor temp is also an issue that I have found with my units being oversized for the rooms (which was done for heating purposes) they reach set point quickly even on low fan speed so the bit of moisture that has built up on the coil will contain your breath etc and then when it cycles off at room temperature the moisture that collected on the coil will evaporate back off the coil and leave the smell behind... ive likened the smell to a sweaty sock/vinegar smell before! Its just something you will have to get used to unless you are going to install a heat recovery ventilation fan to ensure the air is changed regulary in the room.
Another tip... sure that when you have finished with the units for the day, run the fan mode for an hour you can set the sleep timer on fan mode so that the unit dries out, this is how bacteria growth starts from the coils being left damp and the bacteria will grow.
You think your units smell you should have smelt the fujitsu cassette units in the nightclub I used to work at that would reach set point as the club had emptied and we was clearing out! THey stank of all those sweaty ppl that had been dancing, all the drinks that had been spilt on the carpets etc the smells would be sucked into the unit during the night then when it had reached set point because the club was empty the units stunk!!!!
You also refer to feeling very cold from the air that is coming from the unit, this also sounds like your units are oversized to the rooms - as mine are, they were mainly put in for heating and cooling is a bonus really but we oversized them as then we can run them on low fan speed and are probably then running at design conditions for heating... still even low fan speed is too much output for cooling.
Best way to resolve the cold draught issue from the unit is to manually by hand move the louvre that opens and closes and partially close it... this then slows the air velocity at which exits the unit. Obviously dont shut it too far but make sure it is angled horizontal as my wall mounts by default have the airflow angled slightly downwards in cooling so if you are in line of the unit you get blasted by the cold air.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reptile
Hi all
I have just put in my first MHI split unit, which went well overall, but I have a few questions which I'm not going to find in the documentation, so thought I'd keep them all together in one place. Apologies if they are a bit random or daft.
1) In the evacuation process I had my digital gauge inline inbetween the manifold low-side and service valve, and the pump in to the centre port of the manifold. I had to see positive pressure when releasing the gas before I could remove my gauge, and lost some gas in the meantime. What is the best configuration and process to use when evacuating? (idiots guide). Should I have my gauge tapped into my manifold instead just using one port on it (ie not 'inline')?
2) Related to the above... I was seeing 300 microns with the pump running, but isolate the pump and that quickly rose (within 1 minute) to 1000 where it settled and didn't rise. I evacuated for another 3 hours and this was still the same, so figured it was fine, as it was a lengthy pipe run. I was careful to keep the caps on the pipes when installing and it pressure tested fine. Is this normal behaviour, or have I been too hasty in releasing the gas?
3) I know it will change according to many factors, but roughly what pressure should I be seeing on my manifold low-side when all the gas is released into the system? Just as a peace-of-mind check.
4) I couldn't find imperial sized insulation. For 1/4" (6.35mm) and 3/8" (9.52mm) copper I ordered 6mm and 10mm armaflex. The 6mm fits great, but the 10mm is pretty loose on the pipe. A bit concerned it will not be effective !?
5) Insulation again - how far up into the indoor unit do you insulate with armaflex? My indoor unit came with both pipes held loosely together in some sort of foam. I installed it as-was and then stripped what I could off the pipework that was external, and replaced with armaflex up to the hole in the wall, but the internal pipe is still just loose in the original stuff.
6) Last one - I did have to re-do the flare a few times to get it to seal. Eventually I just nipped it up a bit extra on the torque wrench, and this worked. Especially on the 1/4". I have the proper eccentric 410a tool and oiled the outside of the flare, but when the tool completes a flare it leaves 'ridges' in the copper at 180 and 360 degrees, where it snaps off when it is done. Could this be causing a problem? Or do you generally just need an extra turn on the wrench (18 & 42 nm I think it was).
Cheers
Reptile :)
If you're pulling 300 microns, you STOOD a good chance that you boiled out some of the compressors OIL!
500 microns is fine, but at the beginning you stated you lost your vacuum?
ALSO: as the ambient temp changes, so will your readings. EVERY unit has different head pressures and suction pressures, and again they CHANGE as the ambient temp changes.
I wont EVEN mention what is called "super heat" to you.
How can I say this without insulting you?
I don't think you should be on a NEW unit with these questions.
Pull the Camaro under a tree; crank out the Buds and tune her up!
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deniver45
If you're pulling 300 microns, you STOOD a good chance that you boiled out some of the compressors OIL!
When you are pulling a vacuum you are not accessing the compressor, the line is closed and you are evacuating moisture from the head unit and interconnecting lines are you not?
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DIYer ~ Untrained, Unqualled, Illegally Installing
As you say anyone can cut a hole in a wall and put up some trunking. You can even bend some copper, maybe. No quals needed there, although we are starting to get into installing F-Gas pipe systems which is controlled.
When you say DIY kit from B&Q, that is the kit with quick couplers; your MHI is NOT one of those DIY kits, especially if you are flaring pipe ends and vac'ing out the system etc.
You are installing F-Gas aircon systems proper.
One awkward question for you: Did you pressure test the system with nitrogen before starting your vac-out?........I guess not. That £600-odd reg valve for nitrogen is a bit pricey for a one-off DIY.
We are not wanting to argue about your competence of bending and flaring pipe etc, though we do suspect it would not pass the legal F-Gas Assessment. No, we are simply pointing out that there are laws and regulations in this country covering the install of F-Gas systems and you are breaking them.
Break them if you want, but please do not ask a trained engineer to condone it. They are already a bit brusied by the time and costs involved in proving that they comply with the same.
So, stop the arguing. Carry on what you are doing if you want, but do not try and get trained and qualled engineers to approve of your actions. (I would suggest you not go boasting about your unqualled installs, also, as you might get a pull from the local Council).
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Well said,,,, Makeit go Right.
Every member should agree with you 100%.
Should be more members like you to say what you think and say what's right.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
This has been the most entertaining thread I have ever read, fantastic. I admire Reptile for (probably unwittingly) going where angels fear to tread. For what its worth my opinion is that there are people out there who are going to do DIY installs and its better to help them out than not. Good luck to you Reptile I hope you get many years of comfort form your units and enjoy the money you have saved. Dont be too hard on the fridgies out there they are just trying to defend their patch. Before anyone cuts me down I am in the industry have done my time.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
David G,
Do you have any licences?Obviously not,,,who would in their right mind condone unprofessional and unlicenced backyarders and wanna be tradies.
I think you should exit the industry.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
How ridiculous Lawrence, if you think qualified engineers have exclusive rights on fitting splits.
There are lots of bitter split fitters out there, calling themselves 'engineers' who can't do anything else, desperately trying to protect their 'trade secrets' ... THEY ARE THE DISGRACE...
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
David G, i'll have to sit on the fence regarding your comment however Reptile did not answer my question on electrical wiring of these units. Electrical wiring size, no earth tests, screws piercing cable and remained live as it failed to ground,(Was on site when sparky found that one). Really its not always about money, surely safety has to be recognised. Look what happened on the home insulation front, one of the innocent workers who was electricuted and died was from my area, money won't help him now, so Reptile, at least get the damned installation electrically certified! ..End of rant... mike
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reptile
Monkeyspanners, I must apologise, having re-read your post, somehow I have missed your explanation on the 2 halves of the flaring tool being misaligned. Must have skimmed it. As it goes, you were bang right. And your post was informative and not rude, even thought you didn't miss the opportunity to mount the high-horse about the F Gas just slightly.
So is it common then? The ridges on the flare? I'm guessing to some extent they get squished down by the flare nut. Or is it a no-no?
Slightly annoyed my expensive tool came like this, AND I've installed one unit with it, blowing a fair amount of Nitrogen in the process. :rolleyes: :)
You might consider it high-horse but when we have invested a fair amount of time and money to enable us to work legally within the law of the land we do a get little peeved when others, such as yourself, are able to simple ignore it without penalty.
It is the same with the Gas Industry so you are not unique in this matter.
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
Damn, Backtospace, were you a secretary before refrigeration? how many words/min can you type? YEH! OFF TOPIC mike..
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Re: Some beginner questions on split units.
I think this thread has touched a raw nerve with some of the members as the posts seem to be getting further away from the original question.
Maybe it's time to close the thread to new posts which just might prevent any further comments becoming a little too personal.