using R404 to chill watermixture

Hi, I'm new, so forgive me if this is the wrong section to post this questions:

I'm thinking of using a waterchiller to cool my cpu and gpu from my computer, and I think R404 will be the best suited for the job, but the problem is I can't find any R404 cooling units here in Belgium :(

You guyz have any idea in which type of freezers/chillers the put R404??

I've got a R134a unit, but don't know if its capable of cooling the cooling fluid to temps lower than -20°C (I'm guessing not)

My general plan is: convert the evaporator into a coil which I then put in a reservoir with some cooling fluid it in.


Thx

PS. You probably noticed, but I know sh*t from refigeration ;)

I would not concern myself with an equipment selection based primarily on a presumption (or some desire) to have a particular refrigerant in the tubing of the machine.

I think your approach should be, "What equipment is available to provide the required temperature at the required capacity in an applicable package", to do the job. You're kinda' puttin' the cart in front of the horse, so to speak.

Are you considering re-fitting what you have to R-404A? That doesn't seem workable.

No, I won't be refitting my system with R404, i already checked into that and found out it would require too many changes.

I'm looking for R404, cause thats used by a number of people who have the same intention as me (cooling the processor and gpu) and this gives some good results.

I know now that its used in for example airco's and industrial chillers and freezers, but finding an used one is nearly impossible (at least, I got this impression)

A new compressor would cost me about 300-400 euro.

You'v got ready made systems (but with the difference the evaporator sits directly on the cpu instead of chillin' first a cooling fluid) and costs about 860 euro.

My goal: making a waterchiller with R404 (or similar refrigerants like R23, R507) for under 860 euro, what will outperform the ready made system (= Vapochill)

Problem is a don't have the technical know-how and can't find anyone who can or will help me (from the moment I say its for a computer, I always get the same sentence: "We'll find it out and give you a ring". What doesn't happen :()

Well, we can figure it out. If you have your 134A machine, we can determine the capacity of the system via the compressor model number at the operating range that it is spec'd for.

Then we can use Marc's 3-phase comparison polynomial to spec the new capacity at the new temp (I'm not kidding). So see if you can get any info off of the compressor, we can make a really good guess. We will then spec a new condensing unit to fit to your little evaporator unit.

Okay.

If I understand this correctly, the "evaporator" cilps over the processor in place of a regular "static" heat sink in the lower speed, common, retail cp's, right? I think I have this figured out.

Piece of cake!

Danfoss TL5F 102G4501
LBP LST/HST R134a
22a 240v ~50Hz

(thats everything thats on the compressor, to be sure)

what is the advertised evpaorator temperature on your current machine?

My current machine??

The compressor is sitting in a freezer at the moment if thats what you meant?

compressor tech chart

NO, what I meant was.... I saw on the previos link to Vapochill, that they advertised a -10C to -12C evaporator temperature on the machine that you linked to. What does your current machine advertise IT's evaporator temperature to be.

0'C? -10'C? +10'C?

This is important to determine what capicity the system is rated at, for the higher the evaporating temperature, the higher the capacity and vice-versa.

Do I understand that you do not have a Vapochill? I understand you to have a 134A vapochill and want to make it colder with R-404A.

Or are we justing starting from scratch. If you have an existing Vapochill, we can determine the inherant capacity of the application. If you don't, then we have to the determine the load (wattage) of the processor.

You meant in this part, right?

Quote:

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Cooling performance

Average Temperature reading

Approx. -12°C / -10.4°F

Readings taken from a VapoChill bare bone mounted with motherboard, memory graphics adapter, hard drive and P3 800MHz CPU running at 1136MHz. Measurements are done on the middle of the evaporator wall.

Temperature readings may vary due to different heat dissipation from different processors. Also core speed and core voltage has influence on the temperature readings."

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And you mean by machine, my computer?
(My machine dissipates a lot more of heat)

Well hard to determine that, but i can ask some vapochill owners what temps on the evaporator they're getting, with a similar machine; if that helps?

well, you would need to know the compressor information, also.

How were you planning to attach evaporator to processor? Or were you just going to put your cpu into the freezer box?

compressor info of the one I've got you can find in an earlier reply in this thread of me, look at "compressor tech chart"

Well, I'v got 2 options:

* I chill a coolingfluid, which runs through some tubes to a waterblok (especially made for computers)
example of this in this thread at overclockers.com: ...here

* Or I make a similar evaporator like the vapochill, but custom made...

Fascinating little compressor system. 134A would work fine for a 10 deg F evaporator. You could just pump a brine fluid or glycol from the freezer through your waterblock to achieve 10 deg F.

I wonder if the waterblock you refer to would suffice as an evaporator in a direct expansion captube/compressor scheme?

That overclocker link is fantastic! Is it possible to overchill a processor?:)

Quote:

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Originally posted by fredperry
the one I've got

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OOOHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Is the one you've got in a a Vapochill unit????????????

Or is it in the Da*m refrigerator that's broke down on your back porch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what I'm getting at!!!!!!!!!

If it's in your broken refrigerator......FORGET ABOUT IT.......

You're going about it all backwards if you're trying to utilize a compressor that you know nothing about..... selecting the compressor is the LAST thing you do......

Do you have a torch, vacuum pump, gauges, micron vacuum gauge, or any of the other equipment or materials to do this?

I'm beginning to the that you need to spend the 860 euros;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dan
Fascinating little compressor system. 134A would work fine for a 10 deg F evaporator. You could just pump a brine fluid or glycol from the freezer through your waterblock to achieve 10 deg F.

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Thats my idea, it's been done before with R134a and someone got their fluid/glycol down to about -20°C

Quote:

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I wonder if the waterblock you refer to would suffice as an evaporator in a direct expansion captube/compressor scheme?

That overclocker link is fantastic! Is it possible to overchill a processor?:)

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yes at extreme low temps (0K)
Sometimes they use LN2 to break records, but that last only about a half hour, the LN2 is hard to contain.

Quote:

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Originally posted by herefishy


OOOHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Is the one you've got in a a Vapochill unit????????????

Or is it in the Da*m refrigerator that's broke down on your back porch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what I'm getting at!!!!!!!!!

If it's in your broken refrigerator......FORGET ABOUT IT.......

You're going about it all backwards if you're trying to utilize a compressor that you know nothing about..... selecting the compressor is the LAST thing you do......

Do you have a torch, vacuum pump, gauges, micron vacuum gauge, or any of the other equipment or materials to do this?

I'm beginning to the that you need to spend the 860 euros;)

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My freezer isn't broken, it in perfect condition.
No, I haven't got the equipement to do something like this, but I'm getting help of a professional (and licensed) technician (bt since we spoke about this I haven't heard from him yet, probably on skiing holiday ;))

And yes i'm also thinking about the vapochill ;), but if the guy can promise me he'll do it below that prize, why not?

okay, fred. Sorry about the yelling, but now I fully understand. The broken fridge part was sarcastic.

You say that your processor is hotter than the one that Vapochill advertises to cool. My train of thought is that we must determine what amount of heat we must dissapate. What do you think, Dan? Or do we just want to cool some mass of glycol to -20C, and assume it'll do it?

What I think would be really cool, is to rob one of those little evaporators that vapochill uses, and refit it to do the job at the higher load / cooler temps!:cool:

I know now that its used in for example airco's and industrial chillers and freezers, but finding an used one is nearly impossible (at least, I got this impression)

A new compressor would cost me about 300-400 euro.

I was wondering why you couldn't take a decent used window a/c unit and convert it to meet your specific needs?

Without having my pressure - temperature chart handy, how cold does your cpu have to be? It seems you are trying to overclock your cpu to new heights. Even with liquid nitrogen, you ca't cool the core enough to severly overclock a cpu because of it's shape.
And then there's electron migration to consider. Sure, colder slows the migration down, but it doesn't stop it.

Have you tried going to www.overclockers.com for more information?

You can build your own condenser, but where would you get the evaporator?

I have heard of some people putting their entire tower into a freezer to keep everything cold. Just a thought.

Quote:

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My train of thought is that we must determine
what amount of heat we must dissapate. What do you think,
Dan?

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Don't we have wattage ratings for CPU's? Would that be a start? Frankly, I am surprised to see the amount of cooling required after visiting the overclocker site. All attempts appear to me to be a one-sided patch. I wonder if we could immerse or surround the processor with a coolant, as opposed to freezing one surface only.

I further wonder why it is not a bad idea to freeze the entire motherboard. If colder temperatures assist the CPU, do they not also assist all the other electronic devices? I am out of my league, but curious.:)

There have been many experiments to cool computers.
LN2, dry ice, 3M oil (to plunge the whole motherboard in it),...
These break records, but they aren't usable if your planning on running the comp 24/7.

Untill custom chillers came the Vapochill system was the most extreme way of permanently cooling your cpu (kryotech does the same, but is more expensive and not commercial)

Now teh cooling to use is a waterchiller, preferably R404A which is the most frequently used, together with R22. One guy is using R507b (JaZmOn; he sells chillers specially built for comps)

Greatest enemy for a comp, when using these extreme cooling, is condensation. So this needs to be insulated, etc.

fredperry, thanks, but you haven't answered my basic question: Why don't we just freeze the entire motherboard in a small insulated box? It addresses all insulation and condensation issues, it perhaps provides benefits to capacitors and transistors, etc. It is real easy to make as cold as you want without redesigning the wheel. It avoids stress cracking and other impedimentia that surface cooling invites.

I worry that we are striving toward the correct answer to a wrong question.:)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dan
fredperry, thanks, but you haven't answered my basic question: Why don't we just freeze the entire motherboard in a small insulated box? It addresses all insulation and condensation issues, it perhaps provides benefits to capacitors and transistors, etc. It is real easy to make as cold as you want without redesigning the wheel. It avoids stress cracking and other impedimentia that surface cooling invites.

I worry that we are striving toward the correct answer to a wrong question.:)

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Dont forget that there are connections to make with keyboards, screens,mouses, cable,...
But i like the idea. How would you do it? with what would you cool it? airco unit? freezer unit?

Hi Fred,

I'm in the same boat as you...I'm a computer guy with limited AC knowledge trying to build a phase-change cooling system for cooling my cpu, gpu and video ram. So far I've fabricated evaporators (waterblocks) to directly contact the heatsources....so the chamber in which refrigerant expansion occurs, will directly contact the heatsource on one side, and be insulated on all other sides.

One question I might pose to the group. Since we are going to have to run hoses inside our computers, is it possible/feasable to use stainless steel braided hoses rather than copper tubing? Part of the reason we don't merely stick computers inside freezers, is that one periodically needs to access the internals of a computer.....and as soon as you remove the computer from a freezer you start having condensation...which will require a day or so to completely evaporate.

Since we need access to the internal parts of a computer, running still copper tubing inside is a bit of a pain. SS braided hoses remain somewhat flexible, plus it tends to use screw fittings rather than requiring solder.

Can anyone think of a way to use SS braided hoses instead of copper? I was planning on using a capillary line rather than a valve, which complicates things somewhat. I'm sure the suction lines could be braided hose....but what about the lines from the condenser to the evaporator(s)?

Thanks for the help,

Hubris