I have been informed that you should not pressure test a refrigeration system system using a nitrogen bottle even if has a requlator via a manifold set which has a sight glass, anticipated nitrogen pressure 6 - 20bar.
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I have been informed that you should not pressure test a refrigeration system system using a nitrogen bottle even if has a requlator via a manifold set which has a sight glass, anticipated nitrogen pressure 6 - 20bar.
I've heard to use Helium becuase the molecules are smaller which will make the Leak easier to be detected. Never heard that nitrogen was bad. Only that you should not pressure test over 350psi
It is correct!
Nitrogen is right gas for that purpose. To use manifold set with which has sight glass is also normal practice, if you are not exceeding pressure rating of that manifold set and if you are using pressure reducing valve, adjusted to max allowable pressure of that part of circuit you are testing and not exceeding pressure rating of weakest part in setup. That part could be easily your manifold gauges with sight-glass. Use safety goggles.
I would have look on system info, usually on back panel. It says maximum pressures. For R410a do 30 bar, R134a do 20, other 25. If here is pitch hole I do higher pressure... up to 5 bar more.
If pressure test negative, I would recommend to have chat with customer and put UV and Sealant into system... usually helps.
there is a new pressure testing regulator that you can get that should be used now, no sight glass should be used with high pressure nitrogen anymore.
The new manifold has a braided hose and it is heavy duty to withstand higher pressures without explosion on failure..
this device weighs about 8kgs and is new common practise.
come on guys, the question was about using a manifold with a sight glass to pressure test. it has always been recommended that you do not ever use a sight glass equipped manifold for pressure testing due to the unknown condition of the glass. it would be bad enough if the glass broke under normal system pressure, but if you get into the habit of using your normal manifold set to pressure test even the low side of the system then one day you will forget and "quickly" pressure test the high side. the same goes for using a faulty nitrogen regulator or gauges. we all know someone who has done it. but we probably also know someone who had a near miss as well.
it may seem a bit nannyish but don't do it and don't advise anybody that it is ok to do it for a short time.
Well said Bill1983, succinct and to the point. Thanks.
I don't see why you should not use gauge manifolds with sight glass with which you measuring your system pressures, for pressure test, who is same or slightly elevated as operating refrigerant pressure, if they are rated for higher pressure than test pressure.
Of corse that I mean that pressure regulator should be used at nitrogen botle to reduce pressure from botle to test pressure.
the problem isn't the pressure you intend to test at, its the pressure you might release into the manifold. most of us i would hope are skilled enough to be able to do this safely, but because of the potential risk shouldn't do it anyway.
We've had this discussion before.
Personally, I consider the manifold set to be safe upto the maximum pressure shown on the dial, otherwise, the manufacturer would not release the product into the main market place, considering their responsibility if something went wrong.
In this day and age of litigation driven thinking, every responsible manufacturer would build some safety factor into their product, even considering such things as wear and tear on the sight glass.
I've yet to see some scientific evidence about sight glass failure to convince me otherwise.
Scaremongering, that's what I say ............
i agree with you both, but it doesn't change the fact that the manifold is not built to be safe at the maximum pressure that the nitrogen cylinder can supply, nor are the gauge lines. like i said we are probably safe enough to do it, but do you want to be there when it goes wrong? yes the problem is litigation, the rules are now made for the less intelligent but they do apply to all. the choice is yours.
as regards the hair splitting nike, dont worry about it, its what the forum is for. it doen't matter what you have set the regulator for, it matters that it COULD release more pressure than the manifold,lines, sight glass can take.
if i'm reading you right nike, then you are saying that if you set the nitrogen regulator to a safe pressure for example 100psig then you will not then release any more pressure into the manifold than that. therefore the operation is safe. is that correct?
Yep, that is correct!
When I set pressure reducing valve, I first put cap at valve outlet and then adjust pressure to test pressure value, and after that, I remove cap and connect gauge manifold! So there is no way that pressure higher than set on pressure reducing valve could reach gauge manifold.
a good read on this topic
http://www.ior.org.uk/ior_/images/pd...%20testing.pdf
ok. in an extreme scenario which is what the rules are now made for regardless of how little sense they make to you, let us say that you have to leave the nitrogen bottle unattended. you shut down the bottle before you leave the plant. you then go to the other end of the system you are leak testing and begin to look for leaks. you are leak testing for maybe 15 minutes max, during which time you judge that it is safe to leave the nitrogen unattended because you have chained it to a pillar to prevent it from falling over. while you are away, somebody sees the nitrogen and being curious decides to have a closer look. he wonders what will happen if he turns the regulator knob. nothing happens of course because you sensibly isolated the cylinder valve just in case the regulator catestrophically fails. however this curious person just happens to be carrying a multitool and can open the cylinder valve. he does this and winds the regulator fully open. now if the manifold valves are open, he will burst the lines first and receive lacerations to the face and torso from the whipping action ofthe burst lines. however if the valves are not open where is the weak point of the manifold. oops remeber when you dropped it while you were putting it away. it didn't seem to damage it, but what if it caused the sight glass to crack . not enough so you could see it, but just enough to set up a weakness. with 35 bar behind it, and an idiot in front of it you can see what could happen. this is the person for whom health and safety rules were written. this is a unliokely scenario i know BUT the rules are written for just such an event. sad but very true. i can only presume that this is not yet the case in sunny Split?
thanks swill? item 12 on the procedure list will make the test safer but only muppet proof if you take the line with you or lock it away.
I follow the arguments, but, if you ensure that the bottle regulator maximum pressure will not exceed the maximum pressure of the gauge set you are using (common sense I know), then the possibility of an unforeseen accident should be eliminated.
That scenario is like you say that someone in office could kill himself with pencil?
And legislation is not holy cow that we "believers" should not reexamine some of rules put by some clerk who actually newer has been at field and now write rules for field peoples.
Have you ever been in shipyard? If everyone included in shipbuilding strictly follows the rules about safety etc.. ship would never see the day of baptizing.
Don't you thing that is also same chance to blow out for damaged pressure gauge as it is for sight glass, and that exploded pressure gauge could make same damage as sight-glass blowing.
It is our common sense and education what keeps us safe, not some legislation.
Thank you for your replies - if the manifold gauge set with sight glass should not be used what is the procedure when pressure testing with nitrogen with fitted sightglass on the compressor/refrigeration systems (407c/R22).
That scenario is like you say that someone in office could kill himself with pencil?
Thats pretty much the best one i've heard for a long while!!
I agree.
My line manager would probably do that as well!!
The key to this is the right man for the right job!!
& that man needs training & buckets of experience!!!
& that man could be a female!!!!
I have had the sight glass blow out on a set of gauges where the reg could not exceed the max working pressure of the gauges.
Admittedly it was my own fault.
Had the gauges hooked up and closed, connected reg and opened valve on bottle. Last person that used reg had left it fully open, momentary inrush of pressure through reg was enough to break glass and send it into my lip.
I always check the reg first and make sure it is closed now.
QED unfortunately
Brian U're 100 percent right. Here are no good sealants in HRP.
Let's imagine A/C VRV with kg R-410a.
U're contractor, got quota for recharging the system /short of gas/...
After 2h on 43bar no leaks found and you checked all joints, or most of them... u doing VAC and in another 2h pressure comes up from 4 Torr to 6... Test kit is OK.
Well. Technically OFN test positive, but ...
What u would recommend me to do when I've got max 20h to complete a job? /please be constructive/
:off topic:
Rules are for the guidance of the wise and the protection of fools.
When I started in the trade in the late 70's we'd put a 5/8" MF to 1/4"MF reducer in the nitro bottle and hook it up to the system to be tested or purged with a 1/4" copper line.
We'd crack the bottle valve carefully (if you can use that word in that context).
Now I'm older and I hope wiser, I won't go near a nitro bottle without a proper nitro reg. I always close the reg and open my manifold valves before opening the bottle.
I've never owned a set of gauges with a sight glass and don't really see the need.
Its reassuring to see the promotion of sexual equality in our industry.
Good Work!!
Regarding the pressure testing I agree with Nike and Frank.
hi guys.
i've taught that the strengh test has to be 30% more of the normal pressure that soport the wakeast device on the system.
leak test > is 1 time of the normal pressure
strengh test> is 1.3 of the weakeast device on the system.
thank you guys,,,
I think most EU posters forget EN37-2008, pressure testing with an inert gas is compulsory..in fact since 2000.
RAchid269, where you found 1.3?
And 1.3 of what?
I have 1.1 of ps (EN378-2008-2 - 6.3.3.)
And even then, it all depends in what category your installation is falling.
Mozambezi, if in the Eu, fact you only have 20 hours for the job doesn't matter. You have to comply with the EU- regulations, even if it takes 20 days.
But I know, you and yuor clients will have limits but it's up to you to decide if you don't wanna follow the rules.
Pentond, your compressor sump and the sightglass are on the Lp of the system, which can be pressurized at a lower pressure (En378-2008-2 - 6.2.1.1. - Table 2)
The company I work for does not allow any pressure testing with a charging manifold.
All pressure testing MUST be carried out using a pressure relief valve.
Hence we have steel pressure testing manifold with an assortment of 1/2" and 3/8" ports, to this a calibrated gauge and a vent valve is fitted - the rig is hydraulic tested at 200Bar. For normal testing a CVP valve is fitted into this manifold and set to start venting 2 bar above test pressure.
For pressure testing CO2 systems (@77Bar +) the CVP is blanked off and a seperate pre-set relief valve fitted.
All hoses used for pressure testing are 6 or 10mm braided SS or 6mm SS tube.
Why take a chance with pressure testing?
Nitrogen regulators can fail - normally due to the diaphram being reverse pressured when changing the nitrogen bottle without first valving the regulator off from the rest of the system and venting it, this CAN cause the regulator to pass, perhaps only by a small ammount, but enough to over pressure a system or charging manifold/hose. Always close the nitrogen bottle as soon as test pressure is reached.
To the people who boast about using minimal equipment, I hope you are still here to boast of it when your equipment fails during a test. Why take the chance?
The pressure test guidelines in BS-EN378 should be regarded as the MINIMUM standard required, not some inconvieniance that you should do everything to bypass. Too many people have already died pressure testing systems, don't add your name to the list.
Regards
Steve