COMPARISON OF HYDROCARBON R-290 AND

The environmental impact of refrigerants over the entire life cycle of fluid and equipment, including power consumption, is captured in the life cycle climate performance (LCCP) value. The lower the value, the lower the environmental impact.
In this report the LCCP of hydrocarbon R-290 (Propane) and the two HFC blends, R-410A and R-404A, were evaluated for an 11 kW medium temperature refrigeration system having -18 °C to 0 °C evaporator saturated refrigerant temperature. Major findings of the current
study are:

• The LCCP of R-410A is equal to that of R-290 and the LCCP of R-404A is 6.5% higher than that of R-290 for systems with condensing temperatures of 46.0°C to 47.6°C, which are representative of typical design practice.
• On an equal first cost basis, the LCCP of R-410A is 4.2% lower and the LCCP of R-404A is 1.8% higher than that of R-290. The underlying assumption is that the first cost
of the R-290 system may be, for example, 10% higher due to added safety features, and on an equal cost basis, the HFC systems would use the additional cost for a larger
condenser.
• Since the underlying baseline test is based on a relatively small condenser, and since a conservative safety cost estimate is used, it is expected that the environmental impact of both R-404A and R-410A would be reduced further as compared to R-290 in future
system designs.
Roger :cool:

Is LCCP same as TEWI?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter_1

Is LCCP same as TEWI?

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wasn't he one of donald ducks nephews- huey, luey and tewi ??

cheers

richard

http://www.afeas.org/tewi.html

hi peter,

LCCP stands for: Life Cycle Climate Performance.

you can read about it at: http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...df/vainnio.pdf

chemi :cool:

Peter,
As in many things we may see different things in the same material that we read, and you are quite right in the comparison of TEWI and LCCPwith the impact to global warming but I wanted to bring attention to these facts and
to help provide a clearer understanding of the relative performance potential of the R-290 as compared to two
HFC’s (R-404A and R-410A) for medium temperature commercial refrigeration.
The LCCP of R-410A is equal to that of R-290 and the LCCP of R-404A is 6.5% higher than that of R-290 for systems with condensing temperatures of 46.0°C to 47.6°C, which are representative of typical design practice.•

On an equal first cost basis, the LCCP of R-410A is 4.2% lower and the LCCP of R-404A is 1.8% higher than that of R-290. The underlying assumption is that the first cost
of the R-290 system may be, for example, 10% higher due to added safety features, and on an equal cost basis, the HFC systems would use the additional cost for a larger
condenser.
• Since the underlying baseline test is based on a relatively small condenser, and since a conservative safety cost estimate is used, it is expected that the environmental impact of both R-404A and R-410A would be reduced further as compared to R-290 in future
system designs.
Roger :cool:

We keep hearing about the environmental effects of refrigerants and how these should be changed to other more "safe" gases. I was wondering do we blame the gas too much and is the real damage coming from poorly maintained systems leaking permantly and not the gas if properly controlled.

PS I live in the country & cows farting blows a hole in the ozone layer. Should we shoot all the cows :D

Regards

Raymond

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rdocwra

PS I live in the country & cows farting blows a hole in the ozone layer. Should we shoot all the cows :D

Regards

Raymond

---

want some help? or would we be put in gaol for being terrorists?

Friends,

Ref Comparisson R410A versus R290 versus R404A.

Interesting story by Prof Reinhard Radermacher paid for by ARI's Green section but unfortunately totally misleading and now used by “Chemicalia” to produce evidence that HFC 410A is a lot better than R290.

This is a not correct conclusion:


The key discrepancies are:

- Addresses only one HC (R290), and neglects other common HCs (R1270, HC blends, etc)
- System optimisation was very limited, i.e. it was based on a single set of conditions, which were not typical for most systems, and was limited only to the condenser and charge size.
- A liquid receiver was not used, which has many implications on design of the tests and subsequent results.
- Analysis of the test results reveals many inconsistencies – some data corresponds, some does not.
- The COP obtained from test data was modified to reduce the performance of R290 closer to that of the HFCs using a method that is questionable, and certainly could not be applied to “real” systems since it would require hard modifications to compressors and motors.
- 50% to offset the additional cost for meeting HC safety measures. A 10% cost difference is arbitrarily chosen without any consideration of real costs of consultation with HC equipment producers. The additional costs associated with R410A equipment were neglected.
- The LCCP (TEWI) comparison assumes 2% refrigerant leakage per year, which is considered extremely optimistic, given that most independent assessments estimate leakage at around 10% for this type of application.

Virtually all treatments applied throughout the study had a direct, or indirect, negative impact on the relative COP and LCCP of R290 compared to the HFCs. Given this approach, the report sends a positive signal that an R290 system still achieves the same global warming impact (LCCP within ± 4%) as the HFCs. Further, if treatments were applied to all refrigerants on an equal basis, then it is clear that the actual LCCP of R290 would be some 20% lower than the HFCs.


Just have a look at what NEWs USA had to say.

Posted on: 04/12/2004
April 12, 2004: R-410A Performs Better Than Propane In Study

COLLEGE PARK, Md. — Medium temperature commercial refrigeration equipment designed to use hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) refrigerant R-410A performed better in a life cycle climate performance (LCCP) analysis than equipment designed for propane, a flammable hydrocarbon (HC) refrigerant with special safety requirements, according to a study by the Center for Environmental Energy Engineering (CEEE) at the University of Maryland. The study showed that a system using R-410A achieved lower environmental impact during the entire life cycle of the fluid and the equipment, including power consumption, than a system using R-290 (propane). The LCCP analysis of R-410A was 4.2 percent lower than propane. The 31-page study titled “Comparison of Hydrocarbon R-290 and Two HFC Blends R-404A and R-410A for Medium Temperature Refrigeration Applications” is available for free download at www.ari.org. The study is part of the Global Refrigerant Environmental Evaluation Network (GREEN) analysis of the relative performance potential of R-290 to two HFC refrigerants (R-404A and R-410A) for medium temperature commercial refrigeration under the auspices of the International Council of Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Manufacturers Associations (ICARMA). Findings from the study include: · On an equal first cost basis, the LCCP (the lower the value, the lower the environmental impact) of R-410A is 4.2 percent lower and the LCCP of R-404A is 1.8 percent higher than that of R-290. The underlying assumption is that the first cost of the R-290 system may be, for example, 10 percent higher due to added safety features, and on an equal cost basis, the HFC systems would use the additional cost for a larger condenser. · Since a conservative safety cost estimate is used, it is expected that the environmental impact of both R-404A and R-410A would be reduced further as compared to R-290 in future system designs. In addition, R-410A holds the potential for additional optimization using smaller tube diameter to improve heat transfer with reduced charge and improved burst pressure capability. GREEN is a worldwide refrigerant evaluation initiative set up to test HFCs and other refrigerants such as ammonia, propane, and butane in air conditioning and refrigeration equipment and compare the results on an equal basis. GREEN’s goal is to work collectively with refrigerant manufacturers, testing laboratories, and air conditioning and refrigeration trade associations from Europe, China, Japan, and Canada to measure refrigerant systems’ performance while taking into account energy efficiency, cost effectiveness, practicality, and safety.

For more information about the report, contact the report author, Reinhard Radermacher at rader@eng.umd.edu, or Bill Tritsis, ARI certification engineer, at btritsis@ari.org. Publication date: 04/12/2004

You can download the whole paper from ARI.org

It's a pity that this propaganda is necessary to promote R410A

jg/oz

As I previously stated in my initial statement the study was conducted by the Center for Environmental Energy Engineering (CEEE) at the University of Maryland. The study compared the life-cycle climate performance of hydrocarbon R-290 (propane) and two HFC blends, R-404A and R-410A. Date Published-March 2004
Yunho Hwang
Dae-Hyun Jin
Reinhard Radermacher

Roger the toger

Roger,

I was aware of the site, thanks anyway.


There is also a study by Arthur D. Little Inc prepared for the Air-Conditioning
and Refrigeration technology Institute ( ARTI = part of ARI)
called :
Assesment of the Commercial Implications of ASHRAE A3 flammable refrigerants in airconditioning and refrigeration systems.

Typical Little report (writes what customer wants) but gives an insite
into HCs

Have a look at the ARTI site

jg/oz

It is unfortunate that in these times it is very difficult to find a truly independent report. As someone old enough to remember the times when engineers had some influence, before their industries were overrun by marketers and accountants, I find that most modern studies are tainted.

New Scientist magazine has recently been conducting a crusade against the trend in the drug industry to suppress any unfavourable research. Universities now have to rely on industry to fund much of their research, so their previous independence is no longer guaranteed.

Last Sunday's New York Times had a long article on DDT. This chemical can save millions of lives if used properly, but there is so much FUD, it will never be given the chance.

I suspect that the fate of HCs will be decided by Green politics, not engineers. As to the various studies, there are so many variables and assumptions, you can get any result that your sponsor wants.

R-410A and R-290 (propane)

The R-410A system probably uses POE oil, and the R-290
system probably uses 300 SUS mineral oil.

During periodic service, hooking up gauges, etc, small amounts
of moisture/air gets in. POE oil breaks down from this and a
host of other reasons and fails the system. The R-290 system
just keeps runnin'. After 8-10 years, the R-410A system may
be on it's 5th or 6th compressor and $$$ of service calls.
Propane system still on original compressor, only maint is to
oil the fan motor bearings, and clean the condenser twice/year.

Now go figure your life cycle costs.. why do you think
industry wants R-410A? The (service) business friendly
refrigerant... Look at all the $$$, or Euros or whatever
money R-410 will bring in.. nobody wins with R-290,
except for the customer.
--ghg

greeting 'GHG"
from jg/oz ---long time ago, still on the same email ????

hope we have a good conversation on this website, seems a lot better than
aircondition.com, some BS artists but rest seems ok.

Started a section MACS, we recently brought a paper to the EarthForum annex MAC Summit half April, if interested sent you the file, extremely
interesting an essay about 10 years use of HC in Australia and USA with all
the figures as well as the riskassessment comparissons.

jg/oz

ghg orig email will bounce (spammed out).. Send a short
email, and the bounce error mesg contains the new email addr.
Stops the spam..Sure send me the the paper.. thanks.

In the US, "MACS" disease (life limiting MVAC systems with
134a/PAG oil/moisture to fail at warranty) seems to have
spread to HVAC as well now. Life limit with POE oils. Makes
for Business Friendly systems. in the US, the Big Boyz have
finally won. I have pretty much gotten out of refrigeration/AC
now. Experimenting with making low cost colloidal silver for
mold/mildew control and maybe solar thermal power, where
I can use HC working fluids again and no Big Boyz to constantly
fight you every inch of the way.
--ghg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ghg

In the US, "MACS" disease (life limiting MVAC systems with
134a/PAG oil/moisture to fail at warranty) seems to have
spread to HVAC as well now. Life limit with POE oils. Makes
for Business Friendly systems. in the US, the Big Boyz have
finally won. I have pretty much gotten out of refrigeration/AC
now. Experimenting with making low cost colloidal silver for
mold/mildew control and maybe solar thermal power, where
I can use HC working fluids again and no Big Boyz to constantly
fight you every inch of the way.
--ghg

---

I try to follow the adage "Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by stupidity".

However, now that the world has been taken over by MBAs and their life sucking economic rationalist associates, the table has been tilted to severely hinder any engineering innovation outside of the rich end of town. As you have found, if you want to innovate, you have to do it on a small scale under their radar.

I can imagine propane use in supermarkets and maintenance staff carefully dealing with equipment + service guys trying to braze leak on kg working run.

For bigger applications industry uses ammonia or CO, so I don't see any sense either.

I'm wondering, did somebody tried to promote liquid metals as refrigerants :D

Thread a little bit old, 4 years, so responses might be a bit slow ;)