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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
haha, just checked "frigi"s email address there, priceless! its kinda sad the lengths they're going to with their lies to make sales. I guess the only good thing is, a google search on endocube brings ya to these threads where they're exposed for the frauds that they are. I know it'd be enough to put me off buying their product anyway...
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
What a classic, how stupid can some people be!!!
To answer the original question...
Endocube = Hoodwink
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
For weeks we were getting battered on this thread from people saying why are you promoting this product, are you a share holder, well no we are not, and yes we tested because a client asked us too. Everyone is talking about compromising the food with Endocube, and other are talking about liquid run times, defrost cycle reductions etc etc etc. Well I called the company myself, unlike many who keep moaning, and they sent me the full NSF testing information with everything covered on maintaining regulated temperatures and all we needed to know for a certain area we are looking to show another client who we know would ask about certain concerns.
I then was sent a flyer a client was emailed by there utility company offering a rebate on this product. I have worked with clients trying to get rebates on variable speed motors and it is a nightmare. The utilities need a lot of evidence before offering a rebate, and this one particular is one of the largest.
So from a food safety stand point, and an engineering proof it works stand point. I think that have got it covered. and while we keep opening threads. they are getting more interest.
Good luck to them
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
For weeks we were getting battered on this thread from people saying why are you promoting this product, are you a share holder, well no we are not, and yes we tested because a client asked us too. Everyone is talking about compromising the food with Endocube, and other are talking about liquid run times, defrost cycle reductions etc etc etc. Well I called the company myself, unlike many who keep moaning, and they sent me the full NSF testing information with everything covered on maintaining regulated temperatures and all we needed to know for a certain area we are looking to show another client who we know would ask about certain concerns.
I then was sent a flyer a client was emailed by there utility company offering a rebate on this product. I have worked with clients trying to get rebates on variable speed motors and it is a nightmare. The utilities need a lot of evidence before offering a rebate, and this one particular is one of the largest.
So from a food safety stand point, and an engineering proof it works stand point. I think that have got it covered. and while we keep opening threads. they are getting more interest.
Good luck to them
Why not post the full NSF testing data! I am happy to be proved wrong.
My understanding of the NSF is around food safety, not food quality or energy saving. Prof Don, indicated that food safety was not really an issue, I will accept his opinion on this matter.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I'm pretty sure the NSF stated that the Endocube is foodsafe, the gel inside the box.
I hardly can imagine that they will make statements of the foodsafety in all different refrigeration plant setups. It's like saying that a PTC probe is foodsafe or a PTC more foodsafe than a PT100.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mad Fridge. I am sure they would be willing to discuss the food safety side. why don't you ask them and see if they share the same info we have received. maybe this will help not only you, but other who don't care what we have seen.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
Mad Fridge. I am sure they would be willing to discuss the food safety side. why don't you ask them and see if they share the same info we have received. maybe this will help not only you, but other who don't care what we have seen.
Hi, I have accepted what prof don said, "no" issues with food safety, if with or without an endocube, the core temp of a product is maintained at the "same" required temp.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hi MF, my pennies worth
I have the upmost respect Prof Don., that is a given.
Having being in the food industry for what seems multi decades, core temps of product are critical whether being raw chicken products, deep butt temps of quartered beef on the hook, or further processed cooked meat products, rapid chilled or blast frozen,or what ever.
MAF here in NZ have a defined pull down senario/ regime for all and sundry. Dumbing down air temps to save energy would only prolong core temp targets and time frames and promote bacto build ups. Most manufacturers have blast chilling systems that ramp with air temps and governed by core sampling monitoring temps., all data logged for referencing as batch loads and tractability and quality control.
For the after market( after intial processer ) side of things anything is possible, chillers , whatever at supermarkets will do anything to save energy. Effectively the core temp can be maintained with floating air temps, it is a fine line between making people ill and saving energy costs.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Post of 24 February 2012 of Mechanicalman (one of his/her 27 posts only about Endocube) : "We do have an interest. we have recently started as a dealer representative. but we want to know more on rack systems and not just walk-ins do you know of any application in supermarkets? as the only information we have received is from Europe and not the U.S
So again...sales talk and not real life figures. He/she even admits that they don't have figures for the US for racks. We all have to agree..the only thing that certainly works better then their gel-filled box is their marketing machine. But then again, it all seems for me brain-washed yuppies not aware of the basics of thermodynamics and the working principles of a compressor and a refrigeration plant in general. If it was that good, then we all should have seen it everywhere.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I may have it wrong but this talk that the NSF have 'approved' endocube surely only applies to the fact that the endocube 'gel' is safe to use within the 'food' environment.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Surely this product has had enough "airtime" Guys.
I know how incensed some feel about this product invading "OUR" website.
Sadly, since the personal details of participants has been relaxed.
Any idiot or snake oil salesman can come on the forum and they do not even have to lie about their occupation anymore.
Is it not time for this one to sleep?
Grizzly
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
The company sent us the report. it was the same question we asked. maybe safe to use but the report shows how it was tested and all the food types tested against. it has a certificate as a food temperature monitoring and refrigeration control device. in fact the NSF this week have announced that they will now be giving out Energy Star certification on equipment and products which show savings. so it looks like another certification coming this way. I think it is funny how all these people go against the product. but we are satisfied and those who have never seen or used cannot judge. Simple
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
First, I openly admit that I'm nowadays an A/C guy through and through...
However at the beginning of time I started out as a proper fridge guy working mainly on supermarkets.
Now this "endocube" discussion, isn't it really a red herring?
It's not a new technology, in fact, rather the opposite is true... Back when I worked in supermarkets and slaughter houses it was common practise that smaller walk in fridges would have a small bottle of water/bleach solution in a holder on the wall with the thermostat's bulb submerged in it. This was purely to stop the compressor to cycle every time the door were opened.
And it goes back 25+ years, to the good old times before political correctness, HSE on steroids or digital controls.
Now that someone developed it further in to a gel and what I assume is a cubical canister for it... Bah Humbug, doesn't make it something new.
That it's a trade off between quality of produce and energy saving/lifespan of the system? But of course it is, in fact everything are... You could save energy by turning the fridge's thermostat up but you don't, you could get a longer lifespan on the produce by getting it down to 0.2*C within 10 minutes and keeping it within 0.1-0.3*C but you don't.
Endocube?
Increased deadband?
Restart timer?
True on timer?
Thermal weight?
What difference does it make as long as the balance between cost/saving/quality is right?
:cool:
.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mechanicalman.
I hope you will bless us with your enlightenment on other topics in the future!
Or is it only ever to be this one tiresome topic.
By the way it's what you do with the paper that counts and I can think of one use for your soon to be received certificate.
I suppose yours is a quite clever tactic because rear end cube is staying on the forum far longer than it should.
We should thank you for paying towards the upkeep of this forum and for reminding the participants what the majority of them feel about your chosen topic.
The more that argue this point the longer the advert is recognised for what it is.
I should thank you for changing my opinion, maybe we should keep debating this.
At least until the advert period expires anyway.
Many thanks Grizzly
Brilliant points made there Viking.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mad
I thankyou for posting this thread
It brings a chuckle to my chops everytime I get a chance to login
Looking at the high level of experience/knowledge of the regular forum posters here
And Endocube's spin doctors still trying to fool them, is absolutely hilarious :D
R's chillerman
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I,d like to see the original email to this guy as his reply sounds as though he has been prepped with a loaded question?.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
coldmetal.
The product itself may well be a very good product simulator, and may well be food safe, never argued this point. Thermal inertia devices have been round since dot one. (and have been used for monitoring)
How ever your thread did not give any technical or engineering proof of why the product saves energy or improves product quality.
I am all for new products and ideas, this what i do for a living. So I ask a question the scientists, in refrigeration and food technology. Here is the reply. (Prof Don Cleland, a world respected refrigeration academic)
Terry
May the Marketers inherit the earth along with the lawyers!
From a quick look and listen, nothing incorrect but a lot of exaggeration and twisting of facts plus a bit of smoke and mirrors.
The key generic issue is whether refrigeration systems should be controlled based on product or air temperatures. Many argue for product temperature but there are argument both ways and on balance I tend to support air temperatures. Some of the arguments and rationale are:
- Putting the thermostat in product (or Endocube) buffers it from air temperature fluctuations so the refrigeration on/off cycle is slowed and a tighter "dead span" on the thermostat can be used. Yes, fewer (longer) on/off cycles can have a equipment maintenance benefit but the energy use benefit should be slight (start power is higher but startup is still a very small faction of the total run-time).
- Control of product temperature is what really matters so you should use it directly as the control parameter; the counter is that you only know what the product temperature is where the probe is (one position in one product), what about the temperature in products in other positions in the room and in other positions in the same product?; the surface of the product will experience greater temperature fluctuations than an internal position so any benefit on product quality are probably illusionary (temperature variability of thermostat looks more stable but air temperature and hence product surface temperature is still cycling; in fact it is possible that magnitude of temp cycles is higher than with air temp control not lower, but because if you only measure temp in product then you are not aware of air temp fluctuations)
- Variability in a refrigerated is with both time and position. Measurement of air temperature (preferable multiple probes) allows this to be "seen" and taken into account with controls. Dampering the thermostat response to changes in air temperature increases the risk of air temperatures somewhere in the room getting very hot or very cold (relative to the average) but undetected; if this occurs the product in these areas may experience unacceptable temperatures. Possible results are partial product freezing if the storage temp is just above the freezing point of the product or some product being too warm.
- Food safety should not be significantly affected by the 2 approaches as the difference in product temps are unlikely to be large and lead to safety issue
- Food quality can be significantly affected as the difference in temp can be large enough to lead to quality degradation e.g. if surface of product partially freezes because on cycle is prolonged. My view is that the longer refrigeration on/off cycles could lead to greater (not less) product surface temperature variation and hence greater quality issues not less.
- Ultimately if the air temp is controlled then the product temp will be OK (once cooled to storage temp). However, the opposite is not true. If a product temp is OK, the air temperature (and hence adjacent product surface temp) may be significantly different for short periods of time potentially leading to quality issues.
- In other words, if you control on product temp then temp control looks good but the actual fluctuations in air and surface temp may be worse than if air temp control was employed; it is just that you are not measuring them anymore.
For me the best solution is use of multiple air probes so variability in room is measured and taken into account PLUS measures to ensure short-cycling and temperature setpoint over-shoot are minimised e.g. modulating temperature control (e.g. BPR or fan speed) rather than on/off liquid supply; avoid excessive oversizing of refrigeration system etc.
Even if you decide to go the product temperature way, why buy an endocube? Just put the thermostat in some product - a lot cheaper.
I hope the above makes some sense. We have been talking about doing a paper at IRHACE and other fora on the issue of product vs air temp control as we are concerned that pracrtice will change without people being aware of the potential downsides.
Cheers
Don
I,d like to see the original email to this guy as his reply sounds as though he has been prepped with a loaded question?
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
buddy
I,d like to see the original email to this guy as his reply sounds as though he has been prepped with a loaded question?
This the original email.
Hi Don,
I hope all is well!
I thought you may be interested about the claims made by the Endocube product. The product is now being heavily pushed in our neck of the woods.
http://www.endocubeinfo.com/
I would appreciate your thoughts and that of the food technologists if you have the time,
warmest regards
Terry
You can make your own mind up if you think I have prepped the prof!
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chillerman2006
I just listened to the voice over for a few seconds and it immediatly triggered another concern
''endocube mimicks the properties of food and beverage''
well thats just finished it for me
food and beverages all react differently to heat transfer and one device can not accuratly immitate them all
Sorry Coldmetal but endocube is on my list to advise as avoid
R's chillerman
Hi Chillerman,
I always enjoy your posts but based on your statement about food and beverages all react differently to heat transfer and one device can not accurately imitate them all that is absolutely true. but isnt that the same as having a "range" or an "average" temperature of products in one Cold-room such as a produce cold-room with lettuce, avocados etc stored which has different specific heats and heat transfer?
If we didnt compromise and draw the line somewhere we would have one cold-room for Avacodos, one cold-room for Lettuce, one cold-room for fish, one cold-room for lamb and every other type of food stored with different specific heat and transfer rates in cold-rooms around the World.
So the Endocube compound inside it is doing exactly that, covering a "range" or an"average" just like cold-room storage covers a "range" now all over the World.
We have to draw a line somewhere.
Jeeees hope that makes sense!
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
This the original email.
Hi Don,
I hope all is well!
I thought you may be interested about the claims made by the Endocube product. The product is now being heavily pushed in our neck of the woods.
http://www.endocubeinfo.com/
I would appreciate your thoughts and that of the food technologists if you have the time,
warmest regards
Terry
You can make your own mind up if you think I have prepped the prof!
Looks good to me Terry.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
buddy
Hi Chillerman,
I always enjoy your posts but based on your statement about food and beverages all react differently to heat transfer and one device can not accurately imitate them all that is absolutely true. but isnt that the same as having a "range" or an "average" temperature of products in one Cold-room such as a produce cold-room with lettuce, avocados etc stored which has different specific heats and heat transfer?
If we didnt compromise and draw the line somewhere we would have one cold-room for Avacodos, one cold-room for Lettuce, one cold-room for fish, one cold-room for lamb and every other type of food stored with different specific heat and transfer rates in cold-rooms around the World.
So the Endocube compound inside it is doing exactly that, covering a "range" or an"average" just like cold-room storage covers a "range" now all over the World.
We have to draw a line somewhere.
Jeeees hope that makes sense!
Forgetting Endocube for a moment, the compromise you talking about is what temp is best for a product. In large institutions (mass storage) they do have different rooms at different conditions for specific products.
( SHC and heat transfer is really nothing to do with when the product is already at temp)
Back to chillermans argument.
example one if the air temp is always between 1 & 2C, the product will always be between these temps.
Example 2, (endocube) the air can (not limited to) between -2 and +4, to give the same average air temp.
Now a lettuce leaf has little mass, so will basically swing in temp between the above numbers, but an apple has mass and will not swing as much because of the mass and heat transfer properties.
Now as you can see the lettuce is likely to freeze, so the thermostat has to be turned up, so the the swing is going to be 0 to 6C.
The average core temp will raise compared to the air control system. But still within acceptable limits
This where the energy saving is made.
it may well be that, we do not need close control, or food to be as cold as we are presently storing it.
This is all the endocube is doing! But you do not need an endocube to make these changes.
(the benefit on short cycling we can agree on)
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
So leading on from the above post, we may end up raising the cycling temps to stop (as in the example above) the lettuce from freezing, however given the different heat transfer properties of various goods in a mixed usage room the denser products may end up with a higher core temperature as a result, how high? Only trial and error can be used to find out.
In my opinion it is far too risky, especially if I was the one running the cold storage plant with HACCP certification.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
750 Are you aware the Endocube has HACCP certification
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
750 Are you aware the Endocube has HACCP certification
My wife has a driving licence ,doesn't mean she's any good at it.
Cheers
Stu
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechanicalman
750 Are you aware the Endocube has HACCP certification
HACCP certification means absolutely nothing, how can a certification guarantee the application of the product.
The contents may be considered food safe but I know I would not be using it in my cold storage facility, nor would I put it in my supermarket.... if I had one!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stufus
My wife has a driving licence ,doesn't mean she's any good at it.
Well put stu!
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Very interesting read by all parties,
Hi,
Long time reader first time poster,:rolleyes:
I myself have just taken over the maintenance of an IGA food chain with 15 stores across Victoria Australia,
To my amazement one of the stores has a total fit out of "endocube's" e.g. (every case and cold room)
The chain managers have asked little old me to conduct a survy on the feasibility of the cube and if its worth installing into all other stores,
Power monitoring devices have been installed to the refrigeration boards for some time before and after the installation of the cube and I'm using data loggers in a range go cases and room.
I should have some interesting answers for your conversations in the coming weeks