Views,

Friends,
as a semi-retired engineer I am looking into new technologies and new refrigerant fluids,as such I come accross a lot of info which I thought may be of interest to you all and give you something to think about. I realize that the Industry is very conservative and does not like too much change. Unfortunately we are going soon into a new area with thither
restrictions on our new refrigerant fluids (like HFCs). This will cause another change-over and new technologies. I may be able to help you with my findings and of course my idea's
which may not be yours yet.

Any interest ????????

Posted a poll --let me know !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jg/oz.

I'm always interested in things that are new, but lets not beat an old subject to death(Again), if you know what I mean JG.

Friends,
Very little is known about accidents in our Industry and particularly with new fluids being invented and starting to be used it seems to me important to know what accidents we
have seen so far. Those working in the F-gas industry have
gear troubles with NH3 plants (dangerous) while in fact they are in general more safe than F-gas plants.

With new refrigerats like HC, CO2, Sterling etc etc we probably
have to re-educte ourselves what refrigeration is all about but
at least we may start to learn again how superheat is set at a TX valve or what a proper refrigerat charge is and how to archieve.

Most suppliers of F-gasses are starting to educate industry with the problems of High Pressure systems and the first
manifold sets with built in sightglasses have been blown up.

This is just to start with, a Techie in Australia overcharged a
leaking system of 18 years old with an overdoze of HC fluids,
blowing a hole in a condensor bent, switching of the system and causing a spark what happened .... you know ............

Stupid but it happens, it's therefore that we would like to know what happens so that others can learn from it.

jg/oz

Friends,

Some time ago 2000 Sydney Olympics I came accross a new
green technology by Unilever Ice cream.

Various test have been done with HC refrigerants versus
conventional HFC 404 and significant tests in the field have resulted in a conclusion that HC in general in this application are 9 % more enrgy effiecient than the HFC application.

Unilever with 2.000.000 ( 2 million) units ( refrigerated )worldwide will change in 2005 to alternative fluids.

NB --Only where this will be legally accepted ( probably not US)

try this website unfortunately the file is too big to upload.

http://www.airah.org.au/downloads/2003-11-02.pdf[URL=http://www.airah.org.au/downlaods/2003-11-02.pdf]

jg/oz

Friends,
Some time ago their was an "Earth Forum" Conference and adjacent Forum on MACS , in Washington DC US .

One of my friends presented a paper with info on
cars in Australia using HC in their system. Also some views on what is done in the US with the same HCs in cars AC (MACS) systems.

Those interested have a look at the file which is attached,
some interesting info is available and most of you have never seen this before. The paper was peer reviewed and after presentation received a lot of interest.

A real view is necessary have a look
jg/oz

Friends,

We are all interested in ODP's and GWP's !!!

Do we realize of what we are doing. This is not another doomsday story but sometimes messages are not further
brought into general viewing.

A recent article about the influence on HFCs on our earth.

Interesting reading.

jg/oz

Friends,

Recently another friend of mine released an article in the
IIR ( International Institute of Refrigeration ( France) regarding background info on HCs in MACS in Australian and US cars. Although I know that this is a controversial article being accepted and strongly peer reveiwed by the most critical Institue of Refrigeration, you have a have a strong paper.

In it , Risks are discussed as well as User Years and the prediction of accidents which I discribe simply as :

Having an accident in a car due to HCs in your MACS system, is similar to winning the LOTTO twice in a row.

Have a read

jg/oz

( this paper is not easy to read but at least try ......)

Friends,
Recently MacDonalds released some interesting info
regarding their new Danish Store with Natural fluids which had been running for a year.

have a look at the post............interesting what can be done
with a low cost alternative.

jg/oz

Friends,



MacDonalds Food outlet in Danmark


Interesting to see how DTI designed a new MacDonalds shop shop in Danmark some time agoand compared it with a a similar shop with HFC fluids in the systems.



Interesting to realize that the total “new alternative fluid system” complied with all Safety regulations

Presently needed in Denmark. ( rules in Denmark more ridged than Australia but perception of danger less than in Australia).



Those in the negative may ask “ and what about the price”. Even there DTI gave an answer, because lots of small appliances are not yet available for for the new fluids they are extremely expensive to buy specifically CO2 gear, also in the flammable HC area most Trade used equipment is extremely expensive.

Future designs and equipment may make systems approx 4/7% more expensive but GWP problem are over specifically direct energy a no pollution by emissions.



More should be the emphases all over the world in these New technologies rather than the CO2 people re-talking about their CO2 hobby horses,comparing them with fluids like NH3 which have for centuries be natural anyway, our main aim should be to look after existing systems ( millions) and new systems to be used with Normal ( non highly trained technicians) using at present highly polluting Global warming fluids and start

R & D project (also in Austrlia) to learn about eg this DTI- MacDonalds test area.



What about we do our bit in Australia—where are AIRAH, RACCA, IRASE, NRAC and others



Are we doing anything.



Luckely a few have tried the MACS Industry ( motor vehicle AC) in Australia and after 10 years of opposition by everybody ( HCs still banned in NSW and QLD)



Equipment Current refrigerant Alternative refrigerant



Soda machine (post mix) R404A (Multiplex) Propane (IMI Cornelius)

Juice dispenser R134A (IMI Cornelius) Propane (IMI Cornelius)

Milkshake and ice-cream R404A (Taylor) Propane (Taylor)

Meat freezer R404A (Franke) Propane (H&K)

Wall freezer R404A (Franke) Propane (H&K)

Ice-cube machine R404A (Scotsman) Propane (Scotsman)

Salad refrigerator R134A (Gram) Isobutane (Vestfrost)

Refrigerating room R134A (Findan) Propane & CO2 (Findan)

Freezing room R404A (Findan) Propane & CO2 (Findan)

HVAC system R407C (Nilan) Carbon dioxide (Nilan)



Charge HFCs = 33.4 kg

Charge HFs = 3.8 kg

Charge CO2 = 17.0 kg



Total Energy reduction over a 1 year trial period 12% Energy reduction



jg/oz

Wake up mate, I'm sure 99% of avg aussie fridgies are all for reducing greenhouse emissions etc but not at the cost of lives. Note: Average aussie fridgy is NOT a paper writing ponce who sits behind a desk all day reading his latest toss to the industry in celcius or CCN. I mean the real fridgies you see at kirby's and lovies every day buying the cheapest gear they can to sell for the highest price and make the most amount of money.
Thats what we are all in it for - $. If you're not then go join greenpeace and fix fridges for charities all day... Yeah right. You just can't go selling units with HC's one day, its gotta have a BIG education program, thats why old matey died, you put something flammable in it you change the whole playing field, even if it is just enough charge to blow the door open in a domestic fridge, do you want your door blowing open, not me, rather CO2.
By the way, I've heard quite few differing stories on that HC incident, even saw the photos, looked like a kirby condensing unit from the photos (about 5-10 yrs old), in a small room with no ventilation and running off extension lead poked in from adjacent room, what photos did you see? Who did you hear the story from coz we maybe stupid in oz but not THAT stupid, to overcharge with a gas that running lower pressures to the point where you blow out a hi side u bend... come on mate, don't make us look stupider than the croc hunter already does! He unplugged a unit that had been leaking in a small room with no ventiliation, he unplugged the unit from its extension lead, air was between 2 and 10% HC and kaboom. NOT his fault unless he installed it, shouldn't have happened for too many reasons to mention, the main one being EDUCATION. He may have been a cowboy, but if taught even a cowboy can do more than ride horses.
I worked on HC units at 2000 olympics for maccas, yes they used patty and nugget freezers on care 30 I think ( been a few years now, maybe 40 or 50) we were all trained for it, all good, no dramas.
HC's are fine for big AC chillers, flashproof switchgear etc all the precautions necessary can be taken, same with industrial fridge, the customers will spend the money to save $ in the longterm, you don't get this in commercial ac and fridge, its bottom $ or bust, I'm sorry but where HC's are concerned any compromise is too much and too many people have gotta make a buck out of this game to feed their families. If your avg walk in coolroom ends up on HC's I'll be a handing my ratchet key and shifter in and moving onto industrial fridge wher all the safety precautions are taken.

Friends,
answer to 750 valve
no hard feelings

jg/oz

750 Valve: Ratchet key and shifter? :)

Hi Dan

Eclosed is pictures of American made shifter and I'm not a 100% sure about the ratchet.

Chemi

Friends,

I realize that the Industry worldwide is very conservative
but not letting us know what your VIEWS are on my questions is a bit ........................................................

I realize ,I am an old bloke and not in touch with the young-one's but having the same apathetic ideas as my older collegues just amazes me.

Please, misuse me, abuse me, kick me, or B..S... me be at least let me hear or see you.

Or are you to busy--- ripping people of --as my Aussi bloke ,old fridgie, tried to tell us.

Any comments ????????????????????????????????????

Any body taking up the challange and come up with something
usefull for all your worldwide collegues turning over on a yearly basis approx 10 billion (US) dollars a year and making a pack out of it.

jg/oz

HC refrigerants are not really that different from any other refrigerant. Any competent engineer should be able to service equipment using this refrigerant without any extensive further training.

The example supplied of someone getting injured does not relate to HC refrigerants but the cowboy engineer, those in the UK will know that cowboy engineers are perfectly capable of injuring themselves on HFC systems.

Personally I have experience of HC refrigerants without having any additional training, up to an average coldroom condensing unit size.

One of the most common pieces of equipment with HC refrigerant is ULT freezers. Used in this application the refrigerant is flammable , it is high pressure and because pentane is added to the oil the compressor oil is flammable. These freezers are normally squeezed into a tiny storage room with no ventilation and I have never heard of any accidents large or small.

A well installed and serviced piece of equipment shouldn't present any problems regardless of the refrigerant. In the past I have converted a couple of rooms from R502 to R290 without any problems.

Waht you really want is a specialist Australian HC contractor to test if there is an interest.

Friends,

Just a small article in the Sydney Morning Herald about Fridges and Greenhouse Gasses.
It's actually very sad to read that our old "beerfridges" and the Household fridge produce just as much Greenhouse Gasses as 2 million cars on the road.

It justifies as said before the change over to HC's in these products, this reduces the CO2 production to a mere 1290 vehicles and than not to forget that in most old fridges 2/3 of the F-gasses are in the insulation and 1/3 is refrigerant.( Europe is 110 million fridges ahead of us and increasing approx 8/10 million per year, China [mainland] is soon to follow.

Even our (Australia's) destruction of approx 500.000 fridges a year is seen by the AGO ( AustralianGreenhouse Office) as a non event and accepts it to be buried as landfill.

Time for a change, but as usual the Government has to set the guidelines and by not ratifying the Kyoto Protocol you cannot accept much corporation from the Trade.

Have a read: interesting stuff.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...927513542.html

regards
jg/oz

Friends,
For some time now I have complained about the Non participating of Coke, McDonalds and Unilever in their promise to go out of HFCs. Till recently when a meeting was held in Brussels with all major users of cabinets and promises made
to go ahead.

May be one of the first positive signs may be from Unilever.

Have a read:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example, Unilever Ice Cream recently committed itself to buying only HFC-free freezers from 2005. The freezers have already been introduced in Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and the UK, and the company claims it will have around 15,000 HFC-free cabinets in its fleet by the end of 2004.

The new freezers use the hydrocarbon, propane as refrigerant. Hydrocarbons are natural gases that do not harm the ozone layer and have virtually no impact on climate change. The HFC (hydrofluorocarbons) gases they replace are not ozone depletors like traditional refrigerants such as CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons) and HCFCs (hydrochlorofluorocarbons), but do contribute to global warming.

Unilever says that laboratory trials suggest the hydrocarbon freezers are also more energy efficient, using up to 15 per cent less energy to keep ice cream at the right temperature, compared with other models. Longer-term trials in the Australian market showed a 9 per cent reduction in energy use compared with HFC cabinets. Although hydrocarbon refrigerants have been available in household freezers for some time, Unilever claims it is the first company to use them on a large scale for commercial freezer cabinets.

this article can be read at:

http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/news-NG.asp?id=54422

regards
jg/oz

Friends,

I may not like F-gasses but must admit that "Carrier Corporation" new way of thinking must be admired.
A 0.1% leakproof warranty on chiller systems must be admired for a period of 5 years and if "service contracts"
taken from Carrier than a lifelong "leak" warranty".

I rest my case , this is exellent new technology from a real "leader" of our Industry.

You just wander what acceptance does Industry have about "Leakproofness" is it,
0.1 , 1, or 5 % of the refrigerant charge per year, per equipment lifetime ????
Any suggestions, at present we think in the 10s of % per year !!!! Long way to go !

jg/oz

NORTH AMERICA

Carrier Guarantees Chillers Utilizing HFC-134a (USA)
Syracuse, N.Y.-based Carrier Corporation has long been committed to environmental sustainability. Ten years ago the company designed and introduced the Evergreen family of centrifugal chillers, a complete line
of chillers with high efficiency non-ozone depleting refrigerant. At the
Engineering Green Building Conference, Carrier announced that it would
enhance its commitment to the environment by providing a 0.1% leak-proof
warranty on its Evergreen family of chillers that are shipped after
October 1, 2004. Carrier's Evergreen Chillers with non-ozone depleting
HFC-134a have the lowest published leak rate in the industry due to
their hermetic motor design and ASME construction. The chillers also
provide industry-leading part-load efficiency, which is where chillers
operate 99% of their life. Under the new warranty Carrier will provide
coverage against refrigerant leaks for the first five years of
ownership. For customers that maintain a service agreement with Carrier
Commercial Service, Carrier will extend the warranty for the life of the
chiller.
Article @ http://www.csemag.com/news_stories/news134.asp
Source: Consulting-Specifying Engineer -- 2 August 2004

regards
jg/oz

Carriers stance is all fine and well. This is just another ploy to lock Carrier BSD into keeping others from getting service on their equipment. Trane is offering a similar plan with the same alterior motives. The leak rates havent been improved, only the way they aproach the customer to use Carrier and Tranes service depts. Im sure the other manufacturers are not far behind. JMHO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jg/oz

Friends,

I may not like F-gasses but must admit that "Carrier Corporation" new way of thinking must be admired.
A 0.1% leakproof warranty on chiller systems must be admired for a period of 5 years and if "service contracts"
taken from Carrier than a lifelong "leak" warranty".

I rest my case , this is exellent new technology from a real "leader" of our Industry.

You just wander what acceptance does Industry have about "Leakproofness" is it,
0.1 , 1, or 5 % of the refrigerant charge per year, per equipment lifetime ????
Any suggestions, at present we think in the 10s of % per year !!!! Long way to go !

jg/oz

NORTH AMERICA

Carrier Guarantees Chillers Utilizing HFC-134a (USA)
Syracuse, N.Y.-based Carrier Corporation has long been committed to environmental sustainability. Ten years ago the company designed and introduced the Evergreen family of centrifugal chillers, a complete line
of chillers with high efficiency non-ozone depleting refrigerant. At the
Engineering Green Building Conference, Carrier announced that it would
enhance its commitment to the environment by providing a 0.1% leak-proof
warranty on its Evergreen family of chillers that are shipped after
October 1, 2004. Carrier's Evergreen Chillers with non-ozone depleting
HFC-134a have the lowest published leak rate in the industry due to
their hermetic motor design and ASME construction. The chillers also
provide industry-leading part-load efficiency, which is where chillers
operate 99% of their life. Under the new warranty Carrier will provide
coverage against refrigerant leaks for the first five years of
ownership. For customers that maintain a service agreement with Carrier
Commercial Service, Carrier will extend the warranty for the life of the
chiller.
Article @ http://www.csemag.com/news_stories/news134.asp
Source: Consulting-Specifying Engineer -- 2 August 2004

regards
jg/oz

---

Friends,

reply to absrbrtek ( strange name):

it would be helpfull if you supplied some websites to confirm your statement, what about Trane any info or more info.

I assume that a company like Carrier does not openly lie about what they say !!!!!!!!!!!!! Although................???

Anybody from Carrier or Trane to confirm this ............!!!

jg/oz

Strange name = absorber tech since thats my favorite type of chiller.

As far as proof of the manufacturers wanting to take independent contractors business you can take it to the bank. The group I am in www.chillergroup.com has been battling it for years. We have had Trane, York, Carrier and McQuay to our meetings discussing this very issue. Using unfair tactics to gain marketshare. All we have ever asked for is a level playing feild. Such as info, decent parts pricing and technical support. They could really care less about helping independents.

All of them want to grow their service depts marketshare at any cost. I read one internal memo that wasnt supposed to get out and they wanted 65% of the service on equipment sold. Didnt matter if you or I sold, started the equipment and serviced the customer previosly, they wanted the service on it. And they will due whatever is nessasary to obtain their goals.

At least that is how it is in the States, maybe its different in other parts of the world.

Friends,

Trends are visible in the EU , slightly and slowly away from HFCs.

A recent article in Food Production (daily.com) from 18/10/'04 had this to say:

The food industry has already anticipated this trend away from F-gases. Unilever’s ice cream division
for example claims that it is committed to buying only HFC-free freezers from 2005. The freezers
have already been introduced in Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and the UK,
and the company claims it will have around 15,000 HFC-free cabinets in its fleet by the end of 2004.

Have a look at :

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/n...shes-reduction

Friends,

Sometimes you wander with all this talk about the EU ( European Union) would the EU have the teeth to push it's idea's. We have seen this in the MACS situation in the EU
with refrigerant fluids will it be CO2, HC's or "Chemicalia's HFC 152a.

A small article in Christian Science Monitor of 21/10/'04 showed us , it really has the power to go against the largest US companies in the world.

Have a read :


Business & Finance


Coca-Cola settled a long-running antitrust case by agree-ing to change its sales practices in Europe, a deal expected to increase competition in the $21 billion-a-year soft drink market there. The settlement, announced Tuesday, ends a five-year probe by the European Union and allows Coke to avoid a fine and, potentially, years of litigation. It also calls for the company to end exclusivity deals with stores and
restaurants and to yield 20 percent of the space in its coolers to rivals, provided the coolers are the only ones in a given store.

As it happens,

Friends,
With the new 2005 upcoming it may be that 'Naturals" are
becoming more discussable than previously.

Therefore it seems to me that some more knowledge needs to be distributed towards interested readers.

Attached a paper from Daniel Colbourne from "Care" refrigerants
telling us a bit about Riskassesmsnts and various legislation in the world.

Have a look:



regards jgoz ( have a Happy New Year)

Friends,
Interesting new technologies are used nowadays e.g. using
propane in Split systems.

DeLonghi in Italy has a range of Splits called the "Meastro"
range with a unique quick coupling mechanism for the gas side
and a simple electrical male/female connector.

In this way all ozone and global warming issues are bypassed and all Trades can do the install (provided they work safely).

But if you take a gasfitter working his whole life with flammables
he has no problem with this unique type of AC (and so many
knowledgeble Tradesmen in the field).

This is another interesting way to avoid Global Warming.
In Indonesia thousands of existing AC split systems where retrofitted to propane and work exellent with a direct decrease in energy-use of approx 15/20%.

Have aread:

jgoz

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what is "New" in using HC refrigerants, they have been used in domestic fridges for years, and seem to work well and safely.

My buddy had a couple of those DeLonghi things in his office, he was really impressed when those clever self sealing valves sprayed lubricant and R22 all over the place when he unscrewed them :eek: Lets hope that they get them right for HCs :D

Karl,

What I have known from DeLonghi's HC splits ( flammable)
is that the suction line is 4 m and no quick coupling inside
the evoporator section, the quick coupling is outside near the base unit. Disconnecting will cause some leakage of the evaporator (oil and some refrigerant) but if you know how to do this procedure properly the amounts are minimal.

Apart from that you should have the outside condensing unit outside so spillige is outside (!!!!).

Thousand upon thousands of HC splits have been installed by non Trade persons without any complaints from the customers.

And it's helping the Environment--No Ozone or Global W. problems at all.

NB retrofitting with HC in older R22 (split) systems (if done properly) will reduce energy consumption by approx 15/20% (thousands of units in Indonesia done this way will prove my case).

jg/oz

Friends,
My "View" articles have been far to few and far to simple.

Apart from this I have had very little time to continue
( although semi-retired ---still busy). Hope to be able to supply some more thinking subjects into this forum.

So far I seem to think that "alternative fluids" in this male dominated trade seem to be not "manchoo" enough for the blokes in the Trade and therefore the new thinking is mainly rejected.

Rather use some more ODP and GW stuff than letting into the trade "Gasfitters"and the like who have been working all their working lives with flammables.(Doing splits and cord connected appliances with eg HC fluids).

The big stuff than will be for the " refr" blokes over 100 kg of
working fluid!!!. Unfortunately 90 % of all refrigeration and AC trade persons work in the 0.25 to 5 kg refrigerant fluid area and I think this could be done as easely with Non Trade people
on 80 % of all appliances and then and only than "alternative fluids' may get a bigger grip on the Industry.

Recently I became aware that Unilever ( the ice-cream boys) had so far outstanding in Europe 85.000 HC fluid propelled Ice cream boxes and will be aiming at approx 1 million in Europe in the next 6/7 years. Anybody interested in servicing R290 equipment ???? You just wander what stops people accepting this new technology.????

What about 110 million HC fridges and freezers in Europe needing
approx 1% servicing per year or 1.1 million service calls, if we
take as known 1% of that as a refrigerant leaks than we have approx 11.000 leaks with this stuff per year in kitchens and so far I have not heard of 1 deadly accidents.

What about those approx 4 million powercord connected commercial appliances in Europe which will probably change over to HC in the future. Anybody willing to service this stuff.

And what about the new AC systems in cars which as I was told
will change over in 2008 to R152A, or HC fluid, or CO2 fluid.

You have in Europe approx 40 million cars now with R134a
and soon 90% of all new cars will be equippped with an AC systems when leaving the manufacturers.

250 million cars will be running in 10 years time with other fluids than CFC or HFC's 134a be prepaired.

Who is already prepairing for this change in servicing, in the future the cardealer will not be servicing this equipment anymore but a new trade called the "heat-ex industry-or radiator blokes" will be looking after this. Are you ready.

jg/oz

Hello JG.....again,

Recently I became aware that Unilever ( the ice-cream boys) had so far outstanding in Europe 85.000 HC fluid propelled Ice cream boxes and will be aiming at approx 1 million in Europe in the next 6/7 years. Anybody interested in servicing R290 equipment ???? You just wander what stops people accepting this new technology.????


HC propelled :eek: Whats this? Add brazing torch and retire...prematurely.

I have already told you that many of our small fridges use HCs so whats new? Although I may be advised by a domestic fridge engineer, but it seems to me that unless the fridge is under warranty, then the price of the parts and labour outweigh the price of a new fridge, so if it fails outside warranty, many folk bin their old fridge and buy a new one, where is the money to be made there?

Modern fridges are made in a factory with quality control, and so normally sealed before delivery to the customer the chances of leakage is very small but if they do leak, then the leak would be small (Unless the muppet sticks a knife through one of the coils when defrosting) allowing the refrigerant to desperse harmlessly. Providing that the concentration of HC does not take the fuel/air ratio in to the combustible zone, then there is no problem

Regarding the automotive industry, when they make a decision, then I shall respond, in the meantime, my sodastream has been 100% effective in the repair of every CO2 system that I have encountered, handy for hot days too! Get busy with the fizzy.... ;)