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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Leakages, losses of ***** have been happening and will be, unfortunately, but, one who deliberately is letting himself let into the air up to 200 gr of it by every A/C he installs (and in a year he may install tens of A/C's or worse, if he leads a business, by the hands of his people - hundreds of A/C's) and by that remain happy and proud of himself with such doings, is utterly wrong.
It seems Toprunner confuses moisture in a system (grams in a big, usually less of a gr) with the water comets consist of. The latter, indeed, travel the space for thousands of years seemingly untouched by
cosmic vacuum, but the scale is different - the comets' masses are millions of tons - compared to our gram in the system which are subjected to the very comparable degree of the "artificial" vacuum.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Toprunner, everyone can buy it and install this - that's correct - but as soon you're making handlings to the gas system - opening the valve of the unit is more than enough - then you need to be certified ....even in Sweden, no...especially in Sweden.
You're breaking the Swedish law which you as a technician should be aware of this. It's not my job nor another poster to explain you the Swedish law.
I'm a member in Belgium of the committee who translate the EU recommendations to a national law. I have copied this thread and have send it to the responsible in the Belgium Government. It's an idiotic way of thinking you have, that's for sure.
Apparently, you don't know the Swedish law and you're surely not certified the right way. Your certificate of 15 years old says enough. The law has changed enormous very recently and you're not aware of this (your post says enough for me to determine this, even without knowing you more then these few posts I've read)
BTW, what certificate did you got 15 years ago? Anyhow, if you got the right (!) certificate 15 years ago, it's no longer valid these days.
In most countries, even the new certificates are only valid for 5 years.
This way of thinking makes it even more sure for me that we have to go- like the British and French proposal for the moment - for a certain control not selling refrigerants any longer to non certified peoples.
Can you show me where the Swedish allow 200 gr to add gas with the purpose finding a leak? Because I don't believe you. I can show you EU regulations where there's stated you can't use any refrigerant to trace a leak. (= 0 gr!!)
The year on my first certificate is 1995 since we were first country to use this method for people working in refrigeration.
My newest certificate i made 2008 and is valid until 2013 according to latest regulation.
There are plenty of cans with gas to cool electronics to buy all over europe for example. These cans contain R-134a and many people use this to top-up their car-AC. Other people use it for its original purpose... to spray on electronics. If your a member in a parlement... start your work where its needed.
I answer the original post and describe a method that is very common.
I am very familiar with regulation here and we allow 200 grams for leaktest because the main task is to run a tight machine.
If you think there is a law against relase F-gas... why dont you call the police first thing you do when you arrive to a leaking machine? Its obviously releasing gas :p
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Outside temperature in the range of 10 to 30°C like you has nothing to do with removing moisture inside a system.
Am I reading correct: do you (we) teach technicians?
I told problem start at 15 degree and get worse with lower temperature. Where did you get 30 degree from?
Check a diagram for boilingpoint of water and a IX-diagram for condensation if you dont understand what i talk about. (you obviously dont)
Yes.. i teach technicians sometimes.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Have you forgotten Copenhagen perhaps.
Some says Global Warming is a fraud and apparently, you're one of these believers.
Who says you're right?
I will never forget Copenhagen. It was one of the biggest jokes i ever seen. :D
I not say Global Warming is a fraud. I said AGW is.. if you read that bad .. what you doing in a parlament?
The hypothese that man can change global temperature is proven wrong. The temperatur change as it always does. We still see a continous warming since last ice-age.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yuri B.
Leakages, losses of ***** have been happening and will be, unfortunately, but, one who deliberately is letting himself let into the air up to 200 gr of it by every A/C he installs (and in a year he may install tens of A/C's or worse, if he leads a business, by the hands of his people - hundreds of A/C's) and by that remain happy and proud of himself with such doings, is utterly wrong.
It seems Toprunner confuses moisture in a system (grams in a big, usually less of a gr) with the water comets consist of. The latter, indeed, travel the space for thousands of years seemingly untouched by
cosmic vacuum, but the scale is different - the comets' masses are millions of tons - compared to our gram in the system which are subjected to the very comparable degree of the "artificial" vacuum.
What happens to moisture in air at lower temperatures? Try a IX-diagram instead of poetry... its much more solid science.
Who said its to put 200 grams out for every installation? Your extrapolation is very very wrong.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
I fully support NNN.
Add to that a good purge is not good enough.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toprunner
The year on my first certificate is 1995 since we were first country to use this method for people working in refrigeration.
...:p
Strange, ...first EN regulations came in 2000, more specific EN378/2000.
I don't think Swedish were the first, The Netherlands were the first and they called it STEK. STEK was founded in 1991. But even STEK is no longer valid these days.
What you eventually did in 1998 is something completely different from what is now demanded.
If you renewed this in 2008 - it' was not a renewal but a new exam - then they should have say you that you can't use gas to trace a leak . Show it to me, I can show you the EN regulations. I doubt your country made a national law against EN regulations. And 200 gr... for a domestic or for a supermarket?? Come on....
Your remark about calling the police...if you're familiar with the law like yous said, then you should now that
1. this is not releasing gas but there's gas escaping, something completely different
2. that an installation can leak
3. that an installation may leak (!!)
4. that you should know what actions you should take if it leaks
5. that you should know what action you have to take if you repaired the leak
6. that you should know what you have to do if you can't reduce the leakage rate
7..
100. that the police has nothing to do with this
I'm not a sitting in a Parliament - happily - in the Parliament, they're only signing laws and regulations which were prepared before by working groups.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toprunner
What happens to moisture in air at lower temperatures? Try a IX-diagram instead of poetry... its much more solid science.
Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.
In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said :p
Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.
I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Strange, ...first EN regulations came in 2000, more specific EN378/2000.
I don't think Swedish were the first, The Netherlands were the first and they called it STEK. STEK was founded in 1991. But even STEK is no longer valid these days.
What you eventually did in 1998 is something completely different from what is now demanded.
If you renewed this in 2008 - it' was not a renewal but a new exam - then they should have say you that you can't use gas to trace a leak . Show it to me, I can show you the EN regulations. I doubt your country made a national law against EN regulations. And 200 gr... for a domestic or for a supermarket?? Come on....
Your remark about calling the police...if you're familiar with the law like yous said, then you should now that
1. this is not releasing gas but there's gas escaping, something completely different
2. that an installation can leak
3. that an installation may leak (!!)
4. that you should know what actions you should take if it leaks
5. that you should know what action you have to take if you repaired the leak
6. that you should know what you have to do if you can't reduce the leakage rate
7..
100. that the police has nothing to do with this
I'm not a sitting in a Parliament - happily - in the Parliament, they're only signing laws and regulations which were prepared before by working groups.
It is not possible to discuss Swedish regulation with you since you have no idea about it. There has been some kind of certificate to work with refrigerants since beginning of the 90´s in Sweden (after Montreal).. i dont know exact year but my first was from 1995. The first certificates were much harder and more restricted then the latest. Since the EU rules came its much more easy and the certificate is now personal. Before we needed both one each person and one ackreditationprocedure for the company that empolys technicians and handle gas containers.
Its also not a topic in this thread where i simply answer the question and reason why a precharged r410a unit is installed withouth vacuuming... legally or not.
If you not understand this happens very often.. just keep your head in the sand and pretend i never answered :cool: , that seems to work for you before.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.
In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said :p
Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.
I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.
Sorry,,, i dont understand what you write here but i dont recognice my words.. please cut and paste instead of try to phrase me.
There is no rule... we have recommendations and intstructions. We dont leaktest with F-gas by a rule... its one of many options and allowed.
You have a funny way of putting words in my mouth that i never said... is that your way of moderate this forum? Its very rude.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by toprunner;201657..
Two months from now we have minus degree here, as you can read in your paper you need temperature above the boiling point to get vapour to evacuate. Where you think you will find that?
Ever heard of sublimation? You still keeps thinking that you have more moisture in the system when it's cold.
You don't answer my questions.Afraid?
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toprunner
I not say Global Warming is a fraud. I said AGW is.. if you read that bad .. what you doing in a parlament?
You have to read clearly what I said
1 I'm not sitting in the Parliament
2 in the Parliament, we don't speak English nor Swedish.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toprunner
Yes.. i teach technicians sometimes.
Hopefully not too many times.
Answer my question once.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toprunner
It is not possible to discuss Swedish regulation with you since you have no idea about it.
I know the Swedish law regarding refrigerants handling pretty well because Sweden is also a member of the EU. So....
And no, not one of my hundreds of colleagues is venting their ac's instead of vacuum. It doesn't take more time to vac then to flush them. You said you will be busy with your 10 th while we are still busy with our 1st one.
Is that the way you teach?
I'm learning that while you're doing the electrical side of the job and put your tools back in the van, you have plenty of time to vac the system properly. And when we have multiple installs on one job, well, we have 5 or 6 vac pumps for this. Doesn't take that much time like you said to vac to the recommended vac pressure which is...yeah,..the same as in Sweden. Even when it's colder than 15°C outside.
Oh, BTW, it's freezing also in my country and we even install in winter.
The colder the better for moisture and you say just the opposite?
How you then vac a freezer store?
I think it's you have to read once again a good book of psychometrics and do some practical tests like I do and show to others, vacuum once on a block of ice and see what's happening. You will be surprised, a whole new world will open for you.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Oh I forgot, what about pressurizing the system, I bet you don't do that neither.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Ok, seems the law is debatable, I truly wasn't aware of this!
What about the environment and some common sense?
I don't think there's any question about some refrigerants beign harmful to the ozon layer and/or the environment(or is there?). Shouldn't we try and avoid releasing any refrigerant into the atmosphere if we can? There's always going to be a leaking flare or pipe joint. And there's always somebody else doing far worse (what about the gas in plasma TVs), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care. Especially as somebody trained in the handling of refrigerants.
Last week I installed a Panasonic High Wall. In the installation instruction it specifically tells you that purging with refrigerant is not good enough and to use the propper procedure with vac pump and vac gauge. I'm pretty sure that the other makes ask for a propper commissioning as well, do you void your warranty?
I'm with Peter on the time factor, an installation properly planned leaves you heaps of time for your vac pump while finishing other parts of the installation off.:mad:
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
This thread has gone berserk. Cancelling subscription.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
No Nick Name,,,i agree,,,this thread has gone to the dogs.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
get some proper training dude or get the hell out of our trade. cowboys give decent folk bad names. damn idiot
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NoNickName
I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.
EDIT: unable to keep it civil
Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.
In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said :p
Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.
I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.
It is not possible to discuss Swedish regulation with you since you have no idea about it. There has been some kind of certificate to work with refrigerants since beginning of the 90´s in Sweden (after Montreal).. i dont know exact year but my first was from 1995. The first certificates were much harder and more restricted then the latest. Since the EU rules came its much more easy and the certificate is now personal. Before we needed both one each person and one ackreditationprocedure for the company that empolys technicians and handle gas containers.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NoNickName
Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.
Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toprunner
You are allowed to use 200 grams for leaktest.. thats enough for flush a small split-AC :)
Ya it will be great if they both get active on this forum...
and share their exp. with gaming...
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toprunner
Thats the way i do.. and i had no problem ;)
Hello Top Runner,
the problem is you have no warranty on your splits components, the manufacturer will not stand over it;)
Kind Regards Andy D
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ktm
Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???
Hello ktm,
flushing with OFN and a vacumn pump will remove moisture. Please see my proceedure below.
1/Strength test the system.
2/Reduce to leak test pressure and leak test with soapy water (dependant on local legislation you could have added a trace gas and used an electronic detector at this point).
3/Blow off the OFN at a safe point, to flush the system of moisture droplets and debri.
4/fit vacumn pump with screider valve core removed (or on a service port or dedicated service valve). Make sure you have no leaks in the gauge line, vac them on the pump and do a drop test on them before you start.
5/vacumn down to 2500 microns with the gas balast valve open on the pump (slow vacumn).
6/break vacumn with OFN to 0psig
7/repeat 5
8/Carry out a drop test (pump off, watch vacumn level for slow or quick rise).
9/If the rise is quick check for leaks, moderate repeat 6, if slow close balast and vacumn to below 1000 microns.
10/Drop test again, if rise is moderate repeat 6, if slow vacumn to final required micon level 50 to 500 microns dependant on syatem size and refrigerant (500 may even be lower than required for ammonia).
Don't forget the vacumn should have clean oil and be gererally in a good servicible order.
If you want quick vacumn add heat by heating the indoor unit (or running evaporator fans if you can).
There is a right way and a wrong way to do most things and areas in between, but if you want the manufacturer to honour the warranty on their equipment you need to try and keep the pipework clean on instal (purge with OFN and keep the pipe ends sealed when you are not working on it) and pressure test and evacuate your equipment;)
Kind Regards Andy D
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NoNickName
I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.
EDIT: unable to keep it civil
Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
if you do not vacuum how do you no you have removed all the air from the pipes not just the moisture
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
if you do not vacuum how do you no you have removed all the air from the system
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
Any one on this thread can advice on this. I want to swap the R22 units but i dont want to replace the pipe work. any problems would happen of doing it please advice me.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
not been on here for a few weeks ! what the hells hapened !has everyone been on the christmas booze:)
not read all of it but seems to remind me of what was the way 30 years ago. not now days pleeeeeease.:eek:
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
[quote=toprunner;201831]Sorry,,, i dont understand what you write here but i dont recognice my words.. please cut and paste instead of try to phrase me.
There is no rule... we have recommendations and intstructions. We dont leaktest with F-gas by a rule... its one of many options and allowed.quote]
Toprunner,
I think Peter has just asked you several times to show where did you read that you are allowed to use 200gr of f-gases to trace a leak. I copied and pasted you words, if you are allowed, ther should be a paper in which that practice is written. The question is quite simple, hence the answer should be as well.
IMHO, more than one guy here is expecting that answer, as it would be against all regulations we do know, and, Sweden, for sure, must not be different from our countries.
Regards,
Nando.
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Re: charging R410a with no vacuum !!
It seems to me that many is to lazy concerning propperly use of the vacumpump. I do know it takes time and costs.
Try to use commend sence and use what is recomended by refrigeration info.
Best Regards
Carlo Hansen