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Ill second that,Quote:
Originally Posted by pie man
Two years for my N.V.Q 2 and one for my N.V.Q 3. learning the practical side was almost nil.
The hardest thing ive found is trying to apply the science in real world situations. As for technical help, Hitachi have been spot on as well as Trane when i had big problems with there tracer summit B.M.S system.
There a couple to that rule ie Mcquay and Lennox.
Regards
Matt
I've been told by a great many people over the years that trouble shooting can only be learned through experience. That's a load of crap. Anything that can be learned can be taught. The experience then locks in the learning and makes it real.Quote:
Originally Posted by matt p
I blame it on the schools.
Trouble shooting , fault finding call it what you want but you ultimatley have to learn it which ever way - its the experience you gain through learning it that can`t be teached
I see you quit the tools atb an early age....Which manufacture do you work for?Wish I could specialise on piece of kitQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr Memory
I say troubleshooting.. just general methodical troubleshooting is definately a learned skill.. I dont mean jujst frig or HVAC troubleshooting but any type...
to be able to methodically check and slowly eliminate the causes of a failure systematically is not a skill that every person has....
a good understanding of the theory of how something works HELPS with this.. and the more in-depth you know the more likely you are to be able to find a fault...
as gary points out fault codes are rather useless as it sends a tech in the direction of the code and he looks nowhere else...
one of the things I do and work on myself is Advanced automatic system fault detection and notification... an advanced control system can surely be a nemesis and a block to fixing a system but it can also be our best friend...
I agree the tech support desk has its place.. and I honestly think that ALL techs who intend to work on advanced controls spend some time on the support line... for the main manufacturers sold and serviced by their company....
why??
in the field you work 2 or 3 or 4 calls per day.. more or less depending on how the jobs go.. and typically you see similar issues on many of them except for an occasional unusual one... face it the average tech spends a lot of time chasing down leaks..
on the tech support line you answer 20 or 30 phone calls per day.. you hear and learn about issues you have often never heard of.. and most times controls related.. sure a few blokes call in with mechanical questions but most are in depth controls issues..
work a month on the phones and you gain a wealth of information.. it really works...
now onto the next thing and that is to truly troubleshoot effectively you need to know the complete ins and outs of how a system's controls work.. and the algorithms used..the more info the better.. now the manufacturers dont want to give up too much of that info because many systems are often reverse engineered by competition and ideas stolen ..
HELLO! the system that HVAC's my house.. some of you have seen it elsewhere on the forum.. I cimpletely reverse engineered the communications protocols, the control algorithms.. the boards, etc.. it didsnt take me but 6 months or so to do it.. and really im just a computer geek that worked as an HVAC tech in the 90s and still service a few units on the side (esp mini splits) because the locals here are afraid of them...
my point? manufacturers hold back information puirposely.. which makes techs more likely to be parts changers..
-Christopher
The best engineer has the "Magic or 6th sense" who can go to the problem with little fuss and change or repair only what is required. (every company should have one of these engineers) BUT these engineers are not profitable, they do not change parts willy nilly, they do not have to spend hours scratching their chargable heads.
If clients were willing to pay the true cost of running refrigeration engineers, then parts would be a less of an importance, which then would allow for upskilling. But this is not going to happen, so the best engineer, is one who is concencious, will change the parts until the system is right (best if all done in one visit) If the system is working after the engineer has been, the client does not normally complain, regardless of his invoice
I think the difference in all of this is that the best of both worlds is to have SERVICE TECHS out on site.. and have an ENGINEER or two at the shop for the support of the field techs.. this model works great for larger companies...
service techs run the daily routine calls with no assistance and for thopse couple of real bummers they call the office for help.. where the engineer with the 6th sense can give a helping hand...
-Christopher
There is no such thing as 6th sence.
When you arrive at site you get a description of the problem from the customer & perhaps some other information like fault codes or system history.
If you have seen this description of problems many times before then you already have a good idea what the possible cause could be. Maybe a short list of 3 or 4 most likely causes are already forming in you mind as the customer describes the problems.
Then without even looking at the system you judge which is the most likely cause based on the many times you have resolved this type of problem before & you mentally make a short list of possible causes & decide on a priority list of things to check.
If you sometimes happen to find the fault straight away its 100% because you found that exact same fault many times before & it was in your judgement the probable cause base on your experiance & good memory & application of fundamental refrigeration knowledge while trouble shooting this problem before.
Depending on the ability of the engineer it can take some years to develop this trouble shooting skill.
When any engineer boasts that he can tell whats wrong with a system at 50 yards you just know he is full of BS or he has many years of experiance.
Of course there is no "real" 6th sense, as you stated it really a combination of many things. What it really is is the lack of effort by the concious mind to sort out problems. Some seem have this ability but many do not, not to say that those who do not are not good engineers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermatech
Have you ever gone to site (that you have not been to for years) and the client says "it just not working", nothing more. Some how you seem to go straight the point of the fault, more amazinging it is when this happens and the faulty is out of the ordanary as well thats "Magic"
You're yanking our chains, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermatech
I have purchased several cars over the years and an odd thing happens each time. I start seeing the same make and model car as mine everywhere I go. I suspect they were there all along, but I just didn't notice them until I had a reason to notice them.
That's how experience works. You learn to notice the symptoms that you have previously been given reason to notice. The symptoms jump right out at you.
I can't count the number of times a dispatcher has sent me on a service call saying "It's probably ________", based on their conversations with the customers.
They are almost always wrong.
You can't tell what the problem is before you see what the machine is doing/not doing. Nobody can.
Guessing is unprofessional. It's what parts changers do.
If you had the same dispatcher as me the propably was always "short of gas"Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Always a favorite... lolQuote:
Originally Posted by mad fridgie
I kept track for a while... and found that I was removing more refrigerant from systems than I was adding to systems. Everyone overcharges. It is by far the most common service error.
Slightly off subject, I do remember in the Good Old Bad Days, that my Boss said if the Halide Leak lamp did not burn purple, then do not fix the leak. As we would be back in 6 months to recharge. "A good little earner" We did not worry about the enviroment, we cleaned the condensers by blowing through with R12.
Blame me for the ozone hole, I have big shoulders!!!!!
and wasnt the old way of flushing by using R-11??
or sometimes just charge and release.. charge and release...
I remember as a kid we had this Big old Janitrol Central air conditioner.. actually had a squirrel cage condensor fan...
the copeland compressor ate it. burnt out.. and being at 11 years old and totally "digging" anything air-conditioning I followed and watched that service guy all day... first thing he did was hook up his gauges and said "watch this you will like".. and he started letting the ***** out and freezing ants, spiders, leaves etc right on the spot... did that several times to "flush the system" as he explained it...
yep the good old days.....
that was a deathly hot summer.. none of the family had ever lived a lick without A/C in many years.. dad sent my mom out to "fill the back of the K-5 Blazer with fans".. the fans we got were real metal bladed box fans and window fans.. fans that were still around until about 2 years ago when a raccoon got into my parents current garage and ate the wiring in them...
oh and i drove by that old house the other day and that Janitrol unit is still out back of the house and presumably still works since it was 86 degrees out and their windows were closed..
my how quality is changed since 1967 when it was installed and 1980 when I watched the compressor replacement..
might have something to do with the perception of service techs these days.. people are quick to blame the equipment if it has never been worked on and fails pre-mature.. but people are sure to blame the tech if it has been repaired and something totally different breaks on it soon after...
-Christopher
Equipment made in the USA was certainly built like a "Brick s**t house" (a compliment) it lasted for years, not to good on the old back if you had to move it.
Yes R11 for flushing, plenty of purging the system, they were always clean.
Freezing ants "how cruel", we all did it!! lol
I doTechnical Support and training for a major frozen beverage company in the USA. You are correct with your statement, I come into contact with techs on a daily basis who have been repairing refrigeration equipment for years and truly do not understand how a system works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Memory
Presumably before you train them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer
I dont know about europe but in the USA there are a lot of "techs" out there working on stuff that just go buy some gauges a few hand tools and go at it...
considering anyone on ebay will sell anyone refrigerants and the economy the way it is.. just look at craigs list sometime...
there are still a lot of "gas-n-Go" techs out there... put ***** in it collect the check from the consumer and never to be seen again...
or now with all the Obama energy credits there is a lot of used HVAC equipment on the market now... so the craigslist ads read.. "Get Central Air CHEAP.. summer is coming.. Central Air installed for $1000, replace existing for less"..
these guys are buying up all the used equipment and then going around and installing it...
a buddy of mine ran across one such guy this week.. my buddy was putting a mini in his friend's house.. next door 2 guys showed up did a hack electrical job, set a condensor on 4 bricks (no pad), slammed in a line-set, hooked it up turned it on.. charged till the suction line was cold.. no vac. and gone...
the unit looked brand new.. turned out the installer had simply bought 15 year old equipment.. re-painted the cabinet, and installed it.. soft soldered the pipes.. never vacc'd it down and charged the lady $1000. she never had central air in her life before so she was happy just to have it.. wonder if it will last through the summer??
-Christopher
Quote:
Originally Posted by mad fridgie
Well I'm going to have to pull you up on what you say.
You obviously know nothing about refrigeration.
R12 is usless for blowing condensers clean (too low a pressure).
R22 is what you use :D :p..
Coolrunnings
.
Being a Ducter, I just sell them a new one, far less dirty, better for the environment......and more profitable ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by cool runings
Eggs
Always had good pressure with R12, used heat transfer properties, to raise the pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by cool runings
I Pissed on the bottle lol:rolleyes:
In the UK the ambiant temp must be lower than the temp in NZ ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by mad fridgie
As for your method of warming the bottle ;) I choose not to coment :p
coolrunnings
.
That was in the UK, part of the Prestcold training method.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by cool runings
Having poked a very big stick into the Hornets nest. Mr. Memory quickly lost the will to fight his corner ...
He's probably sulked away with his tail between his legs to hide behind his safe and secure little desk not to re appear I hope.
:D
Secure in the knowledge that he gets paid weather he actually helps repair a system or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevgee
So far I have invoices on my desk for replacement parts suggested by a tech help "engineer" that amount to four times the cost of the replacement condensing unit I bought out of my own pocket to get my customer up and running again.
The thing will not run and I don't know why, nor do they. Everything has been changed except the compressor (which checks out ok, windings balance and insulation resistance is perfect). The inverter checker said everything was fine but still their "best guess" was a new power module, then a new board, then a new diode bridge.......eventually they suggest a new compressor......even though that test out fine as well.
Hydraulic lock anyone?.......on a small split?
Tossers
Eggs
Put your gauges on open the manifold so the compressor can pump across it, connect an alternaive electrical supply via a starter and turn it on ... if it doesn't run then yes .. compressor may be locked up. At least that way you'll have elliminated every thing from the compressor.
Trouble is it is a small split, with only a suction service port.
It's a little inverter system so I'm not sure how i would juice it up with an alternative power source.
I asked them a specific question to which they could not provide an answer, so the system is now on a work bench in a corner of the lock up, and it will be repaired at my leisure at maximum cost to them. :).
On this occasion their flow charts didn't work.
Eggs
Now you are blaming help desk because you don't know how to test inverter compressor or you dont have required equipment to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by eggs
If it is AC compressor it could be simply connected to 3 phase power supply.
If it is DC compressor, than you need to troubleshoot everything else, and if everything else is OK than your compressor must be faulty.
I don't know about Croatia, but in the UK not many houses have 3 phase and I don't have a 3 phase power supply in the van.Quote:
Originally Posted by nike123
But I did trouble shoot everything else and it checked out OK, including the compressor.Quote:
Originally Posted by nike123
My point is, that even though it must be the the compressor that is faulty, the muppet in tech help wants to make me change 3 components before he suggest the obvious and sends me a new compressor. Based on his "educated guess"
I had already told him that the inverter side of the system was fine.
He knew better.
Eggs
I think itsa time for the manufacturer to step up and just fork over the cost of the new outdoor unit... and let you keep the old so you have a full arsenal of spare parts....
and I agree about no 3 phase.. heck most small shops in the USA dont have 3 phase at their disposal... there may be 3 phase in the building but many HVAC / R companies work out of office parks and you just have a standard 220 volt panel and thats it...
after all it usually just a warehouse and then an office area... the office area usually handled by a couple 3 ton split systems..
the warehouse unconditioned cept maybe for a REZNOR gas heater hanging from the rafters...
-Christopher
ive just returned from spain where ive been installing domestic and small commercial AC. Ive been doing this with my father who is time served electrical engineer with ICI. He could take a machine apart and find the fault and fix it. However we didnt do this because all spare parts were only sold to the sevice engineer of that particular company. So if the faults werent on our installation then we called the sales office and let them fix it.
So its definitely the manufacturers who are de-skilling the workforce.
the term engineer covers a broad spectrum from those with vast experience to the 1 eyed mutants and management offsprings!not all install engineers can faultfind also service engineers will query the integrity of an install like condenser spacing and additional charge so be greatfull that us cavemen working on systems req technical assistance thus keeping techies in work otherwise stacking shelves in asda whilst technical support will be outsourced to a call centre in india!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do tend to agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermatech
IMO, the most important part of being a fridgie is the attitude - not so much in the typical sense of the term, but in regards to being the type of person who wants to see something fixed, and has trouble accepting defeat when faced with a problem.
I see having to return to a site as a personal failing, and absolutely hate it. Yet theres a couple of guys at the same company who are quite happy to return 2 or 3 times to the same job before getting it right, and happily claim a great success. :confused:
I'd say as labor becomes more and more devalued in the era of cheap Chinese imports, the ability of a tech becomes less important than the time it takes them to get off the premises and stop costing the customer money. The emphasis will be on replacing parts quickly, then leaving as opposed to a 'real' diagnosis and repairing components. The parts are cheap, the labor expensive.
Bit of a shame, but eh. I'm not going to become a parts replacer anytime soon so my career in refrigeration may be time limited :P