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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
desA, you are quite funny....so far evading technical issues? left the court? hardly.....we have been truthful from the first post with all of our info....the info is there for you, you have already found it, you just need to look a little harder....so you have what you need and Sherlock has done enough research now on the other parties involved to see there is no end to this argument from your side due to your time invested in other technologies such as air to water heat pumps with no mention of Co2 experience anywhere on your resume. Once you find a real commercial product with similar construction, quality of materials used, certifications, UL etc...to put up against our real product, let me know....We would be happy to evaluate anything for comparison.:)
Did you undertake a comparision with the simple design given. Being R134a maybe you do not need the same level of certs.
this simple design could be manufactured in the USA (less greem miles) by the many unemployed.
Regardless if we have CO2 experience or not, we are pointing out other methods to ecocute technology.
Why would you epoxy coat SS panels, unless the SS is a very low grade. This seem conterproductive to the enviromental issues.
I have to say and without shame, I used galvanised panel with no futher treatment. It is what it is a corrision resistant box. Why pay for something that has no practical use?
It is what is in the box that counts.
I do manufacture a product "Boost" but is not quite the same application, and all data is based upon heating water from 15C to 85C, i do not have practical testing for lower temps, so I am unable yo compare against your product as the data provided on your site only indicates performance upto 65C.
I use these system on dairy farms (primary market in NZ) It has a theoretical COP of 8, and a practical COP of 10.8 (the increase is due to other positive benefits within the process) Heat output is around the 20Kw mark. This unit has been built around price and engineering. Yes it would be nice if I could have have all the bells, whistles and go faster stripes. but my clientel, are not impressed, they just want to see increased product quality (milk) and a reduction in power consumption.
Does it have a rating, no, because there is no rating type for this range of products.
Has been tested yes by EECA (NZ Govt energy division) and by the local power company.
I design and we manufacture (yes in a garage), we do not badge engineer and call it our own product.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
desA
Personally, I think you are good at TechnoSpin. :D
Your tech-no-information does not get past my spin filter, unfortunately. I actually don't beleive that you have the faintest clue, other than what you have been told/sold. :)
I think that is alittle unfair, did you not know he was trained by those who ran the USA banking and investment institutions:D
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
desA...thanks again for the bash....you have an agenda here to discredit anything you have no knowledge of...just look at your other postings on this website....we have looked at your "impressive" credentials and wondering when we are going to see anything you have been working on "in your heat pump lab"....I think the hot air has gotten to you in the lab....seems like you have so much to offer buried under all that paperwork that you must surely want to share a photo or specifications of something you actually have available...or soon....or not.....
We have not been told or sold anything, we do our own R & D and based on 20 years of experience with these units in the lab AND installed at real sites, we are confident of the results...let's see some examples of your engineering expertise....balls in your court...
MF....we do not "badge" engineer anything, but thanks for that....I have people on staff that would run circles around your little wonder machine with a limited application for poor dairy farmers...our equipment has a little broader range than that....we are all waiting for a photo of this unit too with some better specifications...if you do not understand why SS is epoxy coated, then you really know nothing about manufacturing...hint..it has nothing to do with cheap SS, which we do not use anyway...
Our clients in US demand a real product that will last many years...not something like you are offering:eek:
one needs to look into the mirror to see who is really decreasing the longetivity of this trade with their foolish thinking and pompous remarks....This is a website for sharing and learning, not ranting and raving....Again, our product is only one of many solutions and not the cure all that people here have said...Thanks to all that are privately contacting us from this thread with interest in products, they realize the benefits and that this website seems to be taken over by a few with hidden agendas....
Best to All!
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
MF...another mature comment from you..really demonstrating your knowledge of world events, congratulations...seems you exist to write stupid comments on tech blogs...seen your many other rants and raves on other threads..too bad there is no moderator to get you back on track. maybe if the Kiwis would get into the real world and not rely on support from Australia and rest of world to get by, you would actually have something to say...Don't bash my Country if you can't take the heat....
Good day to all this nonsense....
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
desA...thanks again for the bash....you have an agenda here to discredit anything you have no knowledge of...just look at your other postings on this website....we have looked at your "impressive" credentials and wondering when we are going to see anything you have been working on "in your heat pump lab"....I think the hot air has gotten to you in the lab....seems like you have so much to offer buried under all that paperwork that you must surely want to share a photo or specifications of something you actually have available...or soon....or not.....
We have not been told or sold anything, we do our own R & D and based on 20 years of experience with these units in the lab AND installed at real sites, we are confident of the results...let's see some examples of your engineering expertise....balls in your court...
MF....we do not "badge" engineer anything, but thanks for that....I have people on staff that would run circles around your little wonder machine with a limited application for poor dairy farmers...our equipment has a little broader range than that....we are all waiting for a photo of this unit too with some better specifications...if you do not understand why SS is epoxy coated, then you really know nothing about manufacturing...hint..it has nothing to do with cheap SS, which we do not use anyway...
Our clients in US demand a real product that will last many years...not something like you are offering:eek:
one needs to look into the mirror to see who is really decreasing the longetivity of this trade with their foolish thinking and pompous remarks....This is a website for sharing and learning, not ranting and raving....Again, our product is only one of many solutions and not the cure all that people here have said...Thanks to all that are privately contacting us from this thread with interest in products, they realize the benefits and that this website seems to be taken over by a few with hidden agendas....
Best to All!
Keep going, good on you for standing up! I hope this is getting you orders (hope we get our share of the commission)
But we base info on facts,
lets look at the photo, has the badge been changed ? YES what are we to think.
I gave you a simple design to compare against, and for all to see and how selection has been made, no technical response from you (apart from the incorrect information you gave on the compressor)
Am I the world best manufacturer "no way" but neither are you you buy your products from overseas. I build to what the market wants. If it wants a rolls royce it can have one, but unfortunatley most can not afford a Rolls, they will have to do with a Ford.
I am actually a concept engineer, with real life experience.
How the hell would you know what I am offering.
Your guys could run circles around me, i would hope so, because you can not. "my limited machine for the poor old dairy farmers", so be it, we have 15000 over here. I look forword to recieving your product.
Whos ranting and raving, (a bit of banter maybe) we are giving oppotunities to prove your product, along with altenatives. or Are you that far up your own A*S*, that you do not believe there is any alternative to what you supply.
You said you have sold 300 units (i applaud you for this) but how many people are in the USA, how many more could you sell if the cost was lower, Savings are not soley made on COP, but on load profiles. Low priced units increase the potential target market.
Even if the lower priced product, is slightly down in performance and has less thrills on it, the net benefit to the enviroment has increased. What is better for the enviroment 300units that save 90% or 3000 units that save 80%?
A sensible question, i would like to ask, what is deemed as an exceptable payback period for this type of product in the USA (simple capital/annual savings) I am aware that other issues may come into play. This in it self may help explain your present market and such product application. In NZ (for businesses) if it is over 3 years then its a no-goer,(10%)
Under 18months it is a slam dunk! (90% success rate)
This is site for tech talk.
Engineering is easy, doing it for the right price is hard.
As far es experience with CO2, most of mine is gained in stack gas removal, purification and liquification. (co-gen plants), revert recovery, biogas recovery, distallation in fermentation. Plus specialist in "charged" dry ice -74C refrigeration for freeze driers. (you can use CO2 below its triple point for LT refrigeration)
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
MF, the badge was blocked out in those photos due to marketing issue, at the time of the photo, the name these were to be marketed under for the US was undecided, hence the blockout...nothing sinister here Sherlock Holmes...not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes as you are....;)
If you could read, you would see that it was said many times, that this is not the only product and is not a cure all like you claimed I said...go back and read the posts...first remove your head from where it is at.....
Again there is no need for comparison because your product is only a "dream' of yours..."Why bother" as you had said in the post that started all this crap...remember that one?
Last, as far as cost, we are not a philanthropic organization to save the world...rather we offer a quality product, long lasting, with proven results for X amount of money...if you don't like the price, then go buy something else. We started this post with a simple explanation of the term ECOCUTE and a line about availability of units now. A few with hiden agendas picked up on this and decided they were threatened by this technology, so let's make a bunch of stuff up to discredit what we do not know, or are afraid of....Embrace technology and do not run from it....The world would be a better place....
We are anxiously awaiting yours and desA's photos of your wonder machines....
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
MF...another mature comment from you..really demonstrating your knowledge of world events, congratulations...seems you exist to write stupid comments on tech blogs...seen your many other rants and raves on other threads..too bad there is no moderator to get you back on track. maybe if the Kiwis would get into the real world and not rely on support from Australia and rest of world to get by, you would actually have something to say...Don't bash my Country if you can't take the heat....
Good day to all this nonsense....
I think you taking all this to seriously.
I exist to provide for family, help others, and to have as much fun as I can. (seem you misunderstand banter) What i will not take is Bull Shyte.
So the news we get in NZ about the Fiscal systems in the USA are wrong. Fanny May, Freddy Mac, Mr Maddock, No bail out then from the fed goverment!
my mistake I am sorry.
yes Australia is one of our biggest export markets, so they are supporting us. Who cares what we say "we are from NZ" yes we are also sheep ****gers, herd it all before. NZ is the country of innovation, not production, we do not have the population!
Whos bashing your country (other blog, started by Gary from Florida)
You are the one who is bashing your country, why are you not building the machines in the USA, if as you say they are your machines. Those with out sin cast the first stone.
As far as of subject, I clearly asked for performance of your machine a set of conditions, you replied with a totally non technical answer, Again what are we to think, as this is a technical forum. You described a set of well known principles, but as this is a tech forum, we would of expected a full tech answer. Especially as you are promoting the product.
You did clearly indicate in one of your earlier threads a temp of 194F, Is it not reasonable to ask details about performance at these temps, and is it not reasonable to expect a comprehensive answer.
What do you think an engineer would think about this reply, would he be able to apply this to an application (of one I do have) Does it not give the impression, that there is a quite a bit of sales BS going on.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
You know, for a company that is totally confident in its next-generation products, coldwine has failed the test.
He can only bluster on, but simply does not have the technical knowledge to back up his CO2-blown claims. Not doing his sales too much good, I'll wager.
C'mon on coldwine - where are the CoolPack comparative snapshots? The world is waiting with frosted breath. :D
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
MF, the badge was blocked out in those photos due to marketing issue, at the time of the photo, the name these were to be marketed under for the US was undecided, hence the blockout...nothing sinister here Sherlock Holmes...not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes as you are....;)
If you could read, you would see that it was said many times, that this is not the only product and is not a cure all like you claimed I said...go back and read the posts...first remove your head from where it is at.....
Again there is no need for comparison because your product is only a "dream' of yours..."Why bother" as you had said in the post that started all this crap...remember that one?
Last, as far as cost, we are not a philanthropic organization to save the world...rather we offer a quality product, long lasting, with proven results for X amount of money...if you don't like the price, then go buy something else. We started this post with a simple explanation of the term ECOCUTE and a line about availability of units now. A few with hiden agendas picked up on this and decided they were threatened by this technology, so let's make a bunch of stuff up to discredit what we do not know, or are afraid of....Embrace technology and do not run from it....The world would be a better place....
We are anxiously awaiting yours and desA's photos of your wonder machines....
"Why bother" "I did apologise for this comment"
No wool pulling here.
Yes you should make a profit.
Client has the chioce ( what is fact and what is fiction, my dear Watson) This is the hidden agenda.
What stuff have we made up? Nothing, we asked a question, with no technical reply. We have not disputed the technologies/product performance,(at rated conditions) quality,
We have questioned (or asked for) non published data, authenticity of your production. You have clarified!
Price and what I would call value for money.
We have given other possible alternatives (that may fit other applications)
Plus a bit of banter, we have also recieved a bit of banter, just part of the game. (then we are dead)
It is now beer O'clock, time to enjoy USAs favorite export "jack"
Have a good week end (to all), do not stress, no doubt will continue later.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
on and on with no photos of your real "dreams", seems like someone else is the master of spin....
desA, our sales are just fine thanks to your ignorance....I can find nowhere any data on what you have been doing "in the lab"...let's put your money where your mouth is.....You have no idea who I am nor what my technical experience is...I did not insult you and your background until you started with cheap shots of your own...Back up your mouth! you see what we offer, the performance you have already found, so see if you can calculate it yourself....I ask you once again, what over blown claims do you refer to? state exactly where I overblew a claim? Also, none of you naysayers had a pompous remark about the link on CO2 cooling and heating in American Office bldgs you looked at....seems if no stupid comment, then you must agree with it's content....
as you know MF, this unit can easily achieve a 194 F hot water outlet temperature...but of course at a lower capacity, COP...What you see on the data sheet is real data, proven over and over...And please don't bash our compressor...you know it is made by one of the most experienced and respected industrial compressor manufacturers in the world for over 80 years now, and this was developed for this application, is bullet proof and with little current comparison made in one of the most advanced compressor facilities available.
Last, it is not anger or seriousness applied, rather PASSION for technology and how it is applied, why my responses are what they are. It was never said this was the wonder machine, or the only thing to buy, or the greatest thing since sliced bread, rather a good alternative for certain applications. Passion steps in when ridiculous remarks and unbacked claims are made with little regard to professionalism...
back in the chill mode.....
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Would you please post up some CoolPack snapshots of your technical claims. Showing someone else's brochure, with their logo blocked out simply will not pass muster, I'm afraid.
It is free download software. http://www.ipu.dk/English/IPU-Manufa.../CoolPack.aspx
Any techie worth his/her salt will be able to prove their point using this simple simulation environment. Give it a whirl - it even has CO2 modules.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Pic as requested, made for the farm industry. No bell and whistles. priced RRP US$8000 (ish)
Heating cap at 15-85C single pass max 22.2kw
Cooling cap (trade secret) 16.4kw
Power draw 4.9kw
COP 7.9
Attachment 3374
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
That's a nice machine, MK. Excellent.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
on and on with no photos of your real "dreams", seems like someone else is the master of spin....
desA, our sales are just fine thanks to your ignorance....I can find nowhere any data on what you have been doing "in the lab"...let's put your money where your mouth is.....You have no idea who I am nor what my technical experience is...I did not insult you and your background until you started with cheap shots of your own...Back up your mouth! you see what we offer, the performance you have already found, so see if you can calculate it yourself....I ask you once again, what over blown claims do you refer to? state exactly where I overblew a claim? Also, none of you naysayers had a pompous remark about the link on CO2 cooling and heating in American Office bldgs you looked at....seems if no stupid comment, then you must agree with it's content....
as you know MF, this unit can easily achieve a 194 F hot water outlet temperature...but of course at a lower capacity, COP...What you see on the data sheet is real data, proven over and over...And please don't bash our compressor...you know it is made by one of the most experienced and respected industrial compressor manufacturers in the world for over 80 years now, and this was developed for this application, is bullet proof and with little current comparison made in one of the most advanced compressor facilities available.
Last, it is not anger or seriousness applied, rather PASSION for technology and how it is applied, why my responses are what they are. It was never said this was the wonder machine, or the only thing to buy, or the greatest thing since sliced bread, rather a good alternative for certain applications. Passion steps in when ridiculous remarks and unbacked claims are made with little regard to professionalism...
back in the chill mode.....
Jack is flowing nicely chilled, so I did not bash your compressor, the compressor chosen in my base sample was a semi hermetic, you had assumed that i had choosen a a hermetic (this is what i meant)
It is good that you passion, so do we, I agreed with you on many aspects, I see so many times clients who have purchased equipment that has promised the earth, where sales have overtaken engineering reality. It is more to do with clients understand, they tend to take the high selling point (general rule) and many times and not able to understand the difference between engineering fact and sales hype.
I will try explain better without getting bitchy.
You stated that you can reach 194F (I agree this can happen)
It was stated that a COP of 8 can be reached.
You and I know that the 2 facts above can not occur at the same time.
But in the clients mind it may (this does very much depend upon the sales guy/girl and how much he wants the sale) we all need to make money.
This is where i felt there was some mis-leading information. Thus i felt it need to be clarified, whilst also finding out more performance information for an application which has arisen.
Photo sent.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown, :)
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...
desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Tried to download on site performance, sorry file to big for this site. (not a computer wiss)
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown, :)
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...
desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....
Thanks coldwine, yes is smaller, i do not see a major market at present for purpose built larger ones.
For this reason only did I have to choose a simulated machine.(not actually based around this technology)
Yes machine is designed and produced for its particular market. (not limited to dairy but this where the target market is)
The internal components are where possible NZ made, so high quality (???) Japanese electrical control gear, designed for very easy service, we also include full CIP, at these temps fouling is always a problem. Installation can be completed with out removing asingle cover. Simple fault diagnostics (for the farmer) many levels of protection, auto reset for non critical faults, no comms, not needed.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Coldwine is it possible that you could give me the performance data for a CO2 Ecocute?
Hot water entering 15C heated to 85C
Cold water enterin 20C cooled to 15C
Flow rates as required
showing heat out put,
cooling output
and power draw.
Thank you
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown, :)
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...
desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....
The fact that you have a product on the market doesn't make it a good product... nor does it demonstrate any particular expertise on your part... so you can drop the superior attitude.
(and you have the audacity to call others pompous)
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
CO2 is just another refrigerant, and not a very good one. If it weren't for all of the environmental nonsense, nobody would be seriously considering using it.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...
You simply cannot walk your talk, can you?
MF is being very gentle with you... :D
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gary
CO2 is just another refrigerant, and not a very good one. If it weren't for all of the environmental nonsense, nobody would be seriously considering using it.
It has a very serious problem when the Te,sat rises too high. Reason : this gets close to the critical temp for CO2. It plays havoc with line sizes & the pressure drops go through the roof - can be as high as 300%!
The bi-stability issue is a serious one & has to be carefully managed by the system controller. If not careful, the system can flip into a mode where little, if any, heat is pumped. The CO2 industry generally chooses to overlook, or to not discuss this fact.
There are 'issues' to be addressed here. CO2 is not a 'wonder technology'. I happen to like the fact that we can make hot water using CO2. But, of late, the aggressive marketing tactics displayed by the CO2 devotees have become a little unbearable. This is across the board - not only the current proponent under inquisition.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
MF, thank you for your explanation and I agree your unit shown is a nice packaged unit for your intended market..:) ....nice job.
desA....it is you that cannot back anything up you say...it seems you are like a little bird on a few peoples shoulders, and when they speak up, you chime in with them....never on your own with your OWN knowledge.....you state a few issues that you maybe read in one of your knowledge magazines, known about CO2 in a closed cycle that were addressed years ago in the development of this product. Bi stability and 3 point is a non issue here, and we do not overlook anything. One is not a manufacturer for over 80 years with worldwide installations, if they overlook critical or even not so critical issues. Our business is on repeat clients.
Show me your pictures, I'll show you mine...:D
And then there's Gary....one who claims that I relentlessy market my product here, from the same guy that has on EVERY post comment he makes a little ad for some product he is trying to sell...we don't have the choice of not seeing your ad everytime you write...seems like relentless marketing to me....upon Sherlocks further review of the product, it seems it is based on 12 to 15 year old technology...maybe you are missing the chapter on CO2 refrigeration?...time to update the material.....stop looking for the hanging "chad".....lol...The environmental issues are real, they might not be as big as some suggest...but common sense tells us we cannot pollute, use massive amounts of energy with little disregard for the earths cycle. I am not a "greenie", but these are real issues.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Coldwine, what's in fact your intention? If you come here to poke around a bit, then you better leave your sarcastic undertone in your messages.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Coldwine, can not agree more "massive amount of energy", regardless if you beleive in global warming or not, we are using the earths resouses quickly.
Changes are being made, at what rate, I see as being dependent on education (turning appliances off at the wall, no standby with the remote etc) and capital cost.
There are always those who are fortunate that they can purchase the best technologies (in all fields).
If I look at your ecocute product, (hope you are not offeneded) it is a top end product, maybe overtime with practical experience, some of the techniquies presently used, maybe eliminated, or changed to reduce the capital cost, open the market to a greater client base. As production increases, costs should reduce.
we also have many agruments around, the laws of diminshing returns.
On an engineering point related to refrigeration, the higher the COP, the less stress is applied to the refrigeration machinery, hence increased longevity.
We are likely to disagree on refrigerant choice. But life would be a bit boring if we did all think the same.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Peter....I have no intention here other than to reply to a comment regarding the name ECO Cute and that a unit is available...pure and simple...I apologize for any comments made that offended anyone....it seemed to spark a big debate...which is good in this industry in our opinion, unfortunately some rude and disrespectful comments were made, so we fired back.
I have been a member under a different user for almost 9 years now, so I am not poking around.
we will now stop on our side and let the product stand on it's own. Again it is only for certain engineered applications, is not at all a wonder machine, nor is CO2. It must be applied correctly.
Sorry again if anyone was offended. Best to all.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Will the Earth get warmer? Maybe, maybe not. But that isn't the point.
The big question is, will impoverishing the masses (not to mention future generations) and allowing the environmental nutcases to dictate our every waking moment, stop Mother Nature from doing whatever she wants to do? Seems highly doubtful.
It's all a big money grab. They point at the environment with one hand and pick your pocket with the other hand. The environment is the distraction. It's all about picking your pocket.
I'm all for improving technology, saving energy and saving money, but talk of saving the planet just twists my tail. :mad:
Anything CO2 can do, other refrigerants can do better, safer and a whole lot cheaper. Prove me wrong.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
desA....it is you that cannot back anything up you say...it seems you are like a little bird on a few peoples shoulders, and when they speak up, you chime in with them....never on your own with your OWN knowledge.....you state a few issues that you maybe read in one of your knowledge magazines,
I don't normally bother to rise to the personal attacks, but, it seems like this is now necessary. You know, here's a thought for you to think about in more detail. If a salesperson has to resort to attacking the customer, or someone who challenges their technical claims, then they are either imposters, or their claims have no substance.
Personally, I think that you are trying to use RE to stir up controversy over CO2 in an effort to pursue your own marketing agenda. Frankly, you have done nothing other than to prove yourself to be a snake-oil salesman & charlatan. If you were at all confident about 'your' product, or work, you would not attack as you do. You have, unfortunately, come across as an immature, petulant blowhard, activist, bleeding-heart type. You, in all likelihood, seem to have no product of your own. You have plagiarised the work of others, in a very amateurish manner, passing them off as your own product. This is IP theft.
For the record, my product brand name is registered under the natural initiative drive. I happen to subscribe to the idea of CO2 & alternative refrigerants, each with their own place, amongst the other refrigerants. I do not, however, subscribe to claims about CO2 that are simply marketing hype from a person who really has no idea on the subject matter at hand.
You & your tirades are in danger of bringing R744 into disrepute. You should think more deeply on this.
Quote:
known about CO2 in a closed cycle that were addressed years ago in the development of this product. Bi stability and 3 point is a non issue here, and we do not overlook anything.
All well & good. Then, please explain for the RE readership what the specific remedies are/were for the bi-stability, or multi-stability phenomenon. This would be helpful.
Quote:
One is not a manufacturer for over 80 years with worldwide installations, if they overlook critical or even not so critical issues. Our business is on repeat clients.
Another unsubstantiated claim. You seem to be dreaming.
Quote:
Show me your pictures, I'll show you mine...:D
You have not yet shown a single set of calulations to back up your claims. I expect that you will continue to bluster on, but never produce anything of substance, simply because you don't have the faintest clue.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
@coldwine:
Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, let's change tack a little - an offer of assistance.
If you would like to post hard test results - your design targets for your systems - I'm sure that MF & I could assist to turn these into something presentable.
This could be informative to the RE readership & be of interest to many of us. The offer is presented in good faith - this is a technical discussion forum, after all.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Des A
I am watching with interest as well, me and Toosh are waiting, for actual figures.
magoo
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Attachment 3378
Attachment 3379
Here are some CO2 calcs showing reasonable results
As with all refrigeration heat exchanger selection is Key.
The 2 show what i think is practically great (but un likely)
The second show what i would expext practically from evaps and gas coolers (not as good a heat exchange as phase change).
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
I think you will find, that at these exstremes, R134a and CO2 performance is very similar, both in theory and practice.
I can see improvements on both methods. But cost aspects come into play. "law of diminishing returns"
I would say the main point of difference is capital cost and service Knowledge (R134a well known by many, CO2 at this stage limited to the average tech.)
Co2 is natural, and thus could been seen as benefit of CO2.
I stiil believe that the yearly load profile is of the greastest importance.
There are a very few applications where hot water use and cooling are balanced. most need one and not the other, or use is at different times. (in the small range (upto 250kw) For this reason capital cost plays a major," return on investment" or "payback"
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coldwine
Peter....I have no intention here other than to reply to a comment regarding the name ECO Cute and that a unit is available...pure and simple...I apologize for any comments made that offended anyone....it seemed to spark a big debate...which is good in this industry in our opinion, unfortunately some rude and disrespectful comments were made, so we fired back.
I have been a member under a different user for almost 9 years now, so I am not poking around.
we will now stop on our side and let the product stand on it's own. Again it is only for certain engineered applications, is not at all a wonder machine, nor is CO2. It must be applied correctly.
Sorry again if anyone was offended. Best to all.
desa , i think according to this post Coldwine has retreated into his shell
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
Attachment 3378
Attachment 3379
Here are some CO2 calcs showing reasonable results
As with all refrigeration heat exchanger selection is Key.
The 2 show what i think is practically great (but un likely)
The second show what i would expext practically from evaps and gas coolers (not as good a heat exchange as phase change).
Thanks MF. A very interesting comparison, indeed. The COP's vary enormously with what is an apparently minor spec change.
Looks to be different compressor requirements for each option, no?
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
I think you will find, that at these exstremes, R134a and CO2 performance is very similar, both in theory and practice.
I can see improvements on both methods. But cost aspects come into play. "law of diminishing returns"
I would say the main point of difference is capital cost and service Knowledge (R134a well known by many, CO2 at this stage limited to the average tech.)
Co2 is natural, and thus could been seen as benefit of CO2.
I stiil believe that the yearly load profile is of the greastest importance.
There are a very few applications where hot water use and cooling are balanced. most need one and not the other, or use is at different times. (in the small range (upto 250kw) For this reason capital cost plays a major," return on investment" or "payback"
MF, could you look at a direct spec comparison for HFC's & possibly other 'natural' refrigerants? Would you also like to venture into Boost territory (without giving away your secrets, though)?
These comparisons could be very useful.
I'd also like to see the effect in CoolPack with elevated Te,sat - for heat-pump applications, on line size selection. I have seen NH3 muted as a potentially useful alternative refrigerant again - in a Rankine-cycle heat-pump system. Concern here with discharge temps & materials of construction - thermodynamically worked a treat.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Toosh
desa , i think according to this post Coldwine has retreated into his shell
That would indeed be a great pity. Would be nice for him to pad up & bat an innings, or two.
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
20/20 NZ verses Aus
Have alook later
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
desA
MF, could you look at a direct spec comparison for HFC's & possibly other 'natural' refrigerants? Would you also like to venture into Boost territory (without giving away your secrets, though)?
These comparisons could be very useful.
I'd also like to see the effect in CoolPack with elevated Te,sat - for heat-pump applications, on line size selection. I have seen NH3 muted as a potentially useful alternative refrigerant again - in a Rankine-cycle heat-pump system. Concern here with discharge temps & materials of construction - thermodynamically worked a treat.
Hi desa Here is one
http://www.inive.org/members_area/me...997%5CP360.pdf
Toosh
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Re: Eco Cute CO2 heatpump
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Toosh
Wow, Toosh - another incredible find. Don't know how you do it... :eek: