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Hey all
Just wondered what the biggest systems running on
410A people have come accross.
The reason i ask is i work on many types of a/c systems but the largest systems ive come across using r410a is the vrv/vrf etc.....
I wondered why ive not seen a big package unit's running on it yet?
Im still seeing brand new ahu's coming in on r407c,
Cheers Lee
hi raison.
i too have only worked on vrv and not much industrial/chiller type applications. be interesting to find out. maybe high pressures are a factor?
cheers
I've seen some Lennox units using R410a but most just don't!
Good question Lee - on paper R-410A should be good for freezer plant in industrial systems (positive pressure down to -50C and well suited to evaporative cooling systems) but in practice it is used for small a/c stuff air cooled (despite critical temp of 72C, so pretty poor performer in high ambients). You get about 60% more capacity out the same size compressor but I can't think of any other reason for using it in air cooled a/c.Quote:
Originally Posted by raison
cheers
Andy P
Anyone see it in systems over 5 tons yet?
Hello,
I have been working on units from Stal, Chillers with S89 compressors and S700 control working R410 a.
Nominal capacity 5 000 KW.
These units are very common on the industrial marine refrigeration but are now out of production because we get too much problems with the compressors. The same units were working with R22 before and overhaul was required at every 40 000 hours, with 410 a, we are now down to every 20 000 hours.
So that was a retrofit by the sounds of it 404.
I had a job back in 2002 and the head office of the client was in the UK and was dead against us using 22 and was pushing for alternatives like 407C.
I looked hard at 410A systems then and was a cap on 5 tons and was all residential type split systems then.
Had the options of custom built equipment on 407C expensive, bringing in 407C Carrier made in Europe which would have been an electrical nightmare here, local field conversion which was just asking for trouble, and York offered to factory convert for a price. Job ended up going R22.
Same head office people were pushing for argonite fire suppression which was not common here. They were against FM200 systems. Funny thing was FM200 is similar to 407C.
Abby Normal
I beleive J & E Hall have a plant with 7 tonne in it that they are playing with as far as I remember its either on a petrochem or pharmacutical site, when I see my mate I will get some more details if you are interested.
Ian
Why the difference? Was the R-410a system using some of the lower pressure components originally designed for R-22?Quote:
Originally Posted by 404cab
I would expect to see similar overhaul frequencies if the equipment was applied within the application envelope of the components.
The few projects I have looked at using R-410a were all based on the use of evaporative condensers to keep the discharge pressure as low as possible. The high pressure nature of this refrigerant makes it a good candidate for low temperature processes too as pointed out by Andy_P.
The high discharge pressures of this refrigerant almost mandate the use of evaporative condensers (or water-cooled with lower water temp's if available) for application to large systems.
Otherwise I suspect all of the system will have to be designed for much higher pressures to expect the same or similar life expectency from the system/components.
Appreciate any info Winnie, but would be a little biased towards equipment available on the west side of the Atlantic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooh
I just have not noticed much of anything in the light and heavy commercial air conditioning ranges yet
i have install the 404A supermarket refrigration system in Saudi arabia,24 condensing diffrent type of units, and its doing well,
thanks
York have launched a package chiller range on 410A and I believe Carrier have a range as well.Largest capacity I have seen so far is 450 KW.Sure there will be bigger and better to come though.
I've work on a York YLAE series chiller (air cooled, plate heat exchanger) with 480 KW ref power. It's a six Copeland scroll equipped unit, working with r410a and a common thermostatic exp valve (one x circuit).
It' very quiet and (by now) seems to be affordable.
I've also heard that (look, are rumours) in York are in study some semihermetic air cooled screws using this refrigrant. Power seems to be around 600-800 Kw and more.
From Carrier it is RB 802 (Starfire) somewhere around 720kW but it has three circuits working on the same evap.
(12 pcs of Danfoss Performers)
Hello friendsQuote:
Originally Posted by 404cab
I also work on R410 (York) VSM89 (5,000KW)chillers used in the cruise ship industry. They need to be overhauled every 20,000 purely due to the pressures, they run at 19bar head and discharge temp can go to the 80c+. They are quit big as you can imagine. Used to cool 82m3 of fresh water to 12.8oC. They are charged with just over 1,000KG of R410a and we have 4 onboard.
Starting these babbies up is an experiance in itself.
Do we win Julien?
Who's this ?
Chief Ref Who ???
Temperzone in Australia/New Zealand have made R410a refrigerant standard on all DX gear up to 100kW.
R410a on single circuit up to 40kW, & up to 96kW 2 circuit.
Apparently no problems. In Australia R22 is really being hit on the head by consulting engineers, but still gets up on D & C jobs.
R407c next most common & R410a coming through on all Temperzone gear & inverter/VRV stuff from others.
Trane has their light commercial split 20 ton system out on 410A now
hy guys!
as 404cab says i guess that chiller is the biggest plant for 410a.
have 5300kw arround 600l oil and 1300kg of refrigerant..
in the summer time in carribean sea the high pressure reach somethyme 26 bara with the temp of sea water of 35 degrees...there are 4 units but just 3 can run...in 3 years i replace 2 of this huge compressors s89 and 1 electrical motor...such of nice job !!!!!