Split board consumer unit

First of all, what a great forum this is! I have a question that is probably not on topic and I've probably posted this in the wrong forum, so apologies in advance if this is the case.

I've just had a survey for 2 3.5kw Daikin heat pumps. I asked about wiring to the back of the plug socket and the AC engineer said he would resfuse to do this as he's not an electrician.

The AC engineer said a quailfied electrician may consider wiring two spurs of the main ring but thought most would advise replacing the old-style fuse board with a split circuit board. Either way, he says I'll need an electrician to install two weather proof outdoor isolators ready for him to undertake the AC unit installation. I'm based in the UK btw.

In the past I've a tendency to get ripped off by tradesmen so I'd be interested to know how much I should I expect to be paying for this work by an electrician:

either

(a) two spurs off the main ring (assuming this is safe to do with two 3.5kw inverter units running concurrently) and cabling with installation of 2 outside and indoor isolators

or

(b) an upgrade of the fuse board to a split circuit board and cabling and isolators for the two 3.5kw inverter units.

Crikey, some people don't know there is a credit crunch. :eek:

We supply Daikin, we work in the Midlands and all our guys are Part P, Elecsa regestered domestic electrical installers.........and our prices include electrics.

Try a differant installer.

Eggs

Swipe

As pointed out on moneysavingexpert your quote should include the electrics.

YOu need to get 2 or 3 quotes before making a decision.

Can other guys on here comment on the other side of things... it is safe im sure to have them wired into the ring main but I would at least have plugs fitted to the end so you can isolate them.

I had this setup for a while at home and ran fine.

Thanks for the replies. I'll get more quotes. Can anyone recommend a good installer in the Midlands area (I'm in North Shropshire). Eggs PM me if you are interested in giving me a quote.

Just a thought, but if the fuse board is an old rewirable type and not up to the 17th Edition regs then no electrician can install a spur and issue a certificate for the work without upgrading the board first.
There is a possibility depending on the borad type they could fit a RCBO on that ring main in order to fit the spurs.

In an Ideal world the Daikin units would have 2 dedicated supplies run to outdoor isolators from the fuse board with their own MCB's but we all know and see in the real world this doesn't happen!

In short without upgrading the fuse board the only way to power these units and keeping within the regs would be to plug them in!. (I am certainly not recommending this but in reality that is what happens - There are many posts on this subject on RE - Seems to be a huge grey area!

Regards

Gareth

Hi

Back2space, where abouts on moneysavingexpert is the guidence on air conditioning installations, I would like to have a look at that ?

Many thanks

Gareth

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Originally Posted by gwilliamson

Hi

Back2space, where abouts on moneysavingexpert is the guidence on air conditioning installations, I would like to have a look at that ?

Many thanks

Gareth

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Hi Gareth

There isnt any guidance as such but swipe asked same question on an ongoing post about 13amp plugs etc and it was mentioned it was possible but its a grey area as said above.

The ongoing post is peoples views and opinions on air source heat pumps etc.

Can be viewed here: (this created by me)

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...html?t=1464827

And an already on going one: (started by someone else but ended up with lots of info on cost to run and someone who installed MHI Hyper Inverters x 2 to their house. Very impressed with results.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...0449&highlight

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Originally Posted by Swipe

First of all, what a great forum this is! I have a question that is probably not on topic and I've probably posted this in the wrong forum, so apologies in advance if this is the case.

I've just had a survey for 2 3.5kw Daikin heat pumps. I asked about wiring to the back of the plug socket and the AC engineer said he would resfuse to do this as he's not an electrician.

The AC engineer said a quailfied electrician may consider wiring two spurs of the main ring but thought most would advise replacing the old-style fuse board with a split circuit board. Either way, he says I'll need an electrician to install two weather proof outdoor isolators ready for him to undertake the AC unit installation. I'm based in the UK btw.

In the past I've a tendency to get ripped off by tradesmen so I'd be interested to know how much I should I expect to be paying for this work by an electrician:

either

(a) two spurs off the main ring (assuming this is safe to do with two 3.5kw inverter units running concurrently) and cabling with installation of 2 outside and indoor isolators

or

(b) an upgrade of the fuse board to a split circuit board and cabling and isolators for the two 3.5kw inverter units.

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I attended a part P course a few years back and with what I can remember the examples you gave, both (a) & (b) would require Part P certification....Maybe someone could back me up on this! It sounds to me the a/c engineer has been upfront and honest. There are quite a few posts on here regarding plugging each split into the ring main through 13amp plug top. I personnally wouldn't have a problem with this as long as the engineer installs correct cable size, which would be a minimum of 1.5mm and the cable entering outdoor unit is for outside application.

I will look at the regs to confirm this when I`m back in the office but its always been a general rule that fixed current using equipment should have fixed wiring i.e. not with a 13A plug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swipe

Eggs PM me if you are interested in giving me a quote.

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Swipe i can't pm you :confused: can you pm me your details?

cheers

eggs

:off topic:

I am eager to know why you in UK need to install outdoor unit isolation switch when outdoor unit have no direct power supply, instead, it is supplied thru indoor unit. Isn't that little stupid. If you disconnected it and secured that indoor unit cannot be switched ON, what is purpose of isolating outdoor unit?
I, as qualified electrician, will never do the work at unit which I did not secured for accidental switch ON. If you done that for indoor unit, what is the point for doing that again for outdoor unit?

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Originally Posted by Quality

I will look at the regs to confirm this when I`m back in the office but its always been a general rule that fixed current using equipment should have fixed wiring i.e. not with a 13A plug

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I can't see why it would be illegal but definitely worth looking into. Any info about this would be interesting. I don't carry out as many installs as I used too but I can vaguely remember Fujitsu wall mounted split systems came with a plug wired into indoor unit and what about the DIY systems. That would of been sometime back though. the regs might of changed since then.

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Originally Posted by nike123

:off topic:

I am eager to know why you in UK need to install outdoor unit isolation switch when outdoor unit have no direct power supply, instead, it is supplied thru indoor unit. Isn't that little stupid. If you disconnected it and secured that indoor unit cannot be switched ON, what is purpose of isolating outdoor unit?
I, as qualified electrician, will never do the work at unit which I did not secured for accidental switch ON. If you done that for indoor unit, what is the point for doing that again for outdoor unit?

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Hi Nike123....When I carried out small split installs, they used to vary sometimes. Some manufactures were indoor mains supplied and others were outdoor mains supplied.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteWDJ

Hi Nike123....When I carried out small split installs, they used to vary sometimes. Some manufactures were indoor mains supplied and others were outdoor mains supplied.

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I get what your saying now....If you've made the mains power safe from accidental switch ON then there is no need for two isolations. I agree with this. Some engineers are of the opinion there should be isolation point within arms length of each unit. Thus Indoor/outdoor isolation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteWDJ

I get what your saying now....If you've made the mains power safe from accidental switch ON then there is no need for two isolations. I agree with this. Some engineers are of the opinion there should be isolation point within arms length of each unit. Thus Indoor/outdoor isolation.

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Now, when you say that, I recently installed roof exhaust ventilator which came with pre-installed (pre-wired IP65 switch which need placemant on duct or chimney) isolation switch and connection should be wired to switch, not to motor.
This is probably acording to that rule and new EU regulations.

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Originally Posted by nike123

:off topic:

I am eager to know why you in UK need to install outdoor unit isolation switch when outdoor unit have no direct power supply, instead, it is supplied thru indoor unit. Isn't that little stupid. If you disconnected it and secured that indoor unit cannot be switched ON, what is purpose of isolating outdoor unit?
I, as qualified electrician, will never do the work at unit which I did not secured for accidental switch ON. If you done that for indoor unit, what is the point for doing that again for outdoor unit?

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According the the 17th edition regs, you need to provide an isolator within 1m of electrical equipment, unless the power supply can be physically locked off. ie a padlock put on a rotary isolator.
So if the mains power is to the outdoor unit and you have a padlock on the isolator, you can be 99.99% certain you are not going to get a shock whether you are working on the outdoor unit or the indoor unit. Incidently you do not need to provide an indoor unit isolator in this situation.
If however the power is to the indoor unit, yes you can pull the plug out or pop the fuse out of the spur, but some one can just as easily pop it back in again.....and hey presto you are playing with live wires on the outdoor unit.

Better safe than sorry.

Eggs

:off topic:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eggs

According the the 17th edition regs, you need to provide an isolator within 1m of electrical equipment, unless the power supply can be physically locked off. ie a padlock put on a rotary isolator.
So if the mains power is to the outdoor unit and you have a padlock on the isolator, you can be 99.99% certain you are not going to get a shock whether you are working on the outdoor unit or the indoor unit. Incidently you do not need to provide an indoor unit isolator in this situation.
If however the power is to the indoor unit, yes you can pull the plug out or pop the fuse out of the spur, but some one can just as easily pop it back in again.....and hey presto you are playing with live wires on the outdoor unit.

Better safe than sorry.

Eggs

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by nike123

:off topic:
If you disconnected it and secured that indoor unit cannot be switched ON, what is purpose of isolating outdoor unit?
I, as qualified electrician, will never do the work at unit which I did not secured for accidental switch ON. If you done that for indoor unit, what is the point for doing that again for outdoor unit?

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Regulations made for dumb asses and to create unnecessary jobs and to boost unnecessary production of unnecessary equipment and to charge customer more for unnecesary work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nike123

:off topic:




Regulations made for dumb asses and to create unnecessary jobs and to boost unnecessary production of unnecessary equipment and to charge customer more for unnecesary work.

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Well Nike i'm sure you know there are no pockets in a shrowd, even one belonging to a "Dumb Ass" like me you cheeky insert expletive, who plays the game and follows the rules.



For the sake of a £20 switch and an extra 20 minutes work, i will continue to fit them.

eggs

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Originally Posted by eggs

Swipe i can't pm you :confused: can you pm me your details?

cheers

eggs

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Eggs,

I was also unable to PM you so I have emailed your ntlworld email address specified in your vcf card.

Thanks

Swipe

Swipe, i have a throwaway yahoo e-mail please forward to an email address the ntl one was closed years ago.

cheers

eggs

Email sent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eggs

Swipe, i have a throwaway yahoo e-mail please forward to an email address the ntl one was closed years ago.

cheers

eggs

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Get your profile updated eggs!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nike123

:off topic:

I am eager to know why you in UK need to install outdoor unit isolation switch when outdoor unit have no direct power supply, instead, it is supplied thru indoor unit. Isn't that little stupid. If you disconnected it and secured that indoor unit cannot be switched ON, what is purpose of isolating outdoor unit?
I, as qualified electrician, will never do the work at unit which I did not secured for accidental switch ON. If you done that for indoor unit, what is the point for doing that again for outdoor unit?

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Hi Nike. All Daikin systems need power to the outdoor unit so must have a weatherproof isolator fitted locally. Indoor must also have an isolator since it is not in sight of outdoor unit or main fuseboard / consumer unit. Also don't wire any inverter system to the RCD side of a split board because it will trip the earth leakage breaker - had this a few times on Daikin inverters which can leak to earth as standard.
Some other makes (e.g. MHI & Fujitsu) have power to indoor units 1st. These are normally the smaller capacity systems upt 5kW which are normally aimed at the domestic market. Above 5kW the power goes to the outdoor unit.

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Originally Posted by Swipe

First of all, what a great forum this is! I have a question that is probably not on topic and I've probably posted this in the wrong forum, so apologies in advance if this is the case.

I've just had a survey for 2 3.5kw Daikin heat pumps. I asked about wiring to the back of the plug socket and the AC engineer said he would resfuse to do this as he's not an electrician.

The AC engineer said a quailfied electrician may consider wiring two spurs of the main ring but thought most would advise replacing the old-style fuse board with a split circuit board. Either way, he says I'll need an electrician to install two weather proof outdoor isolators ready for him to undertake the AC unit installation. I'm based in the UK btw.

In the past I've a tendency to get ripped off by tradesmen so I'd be interested to know how much I should I expect to be paying for this work by an electrician:

either

(a) two spurs off the main ring (assuming this is safe to do with two 3.5kw inverter units running concurrently) and cabling with installation of 2 outside and indoor isolators

or

(b) an upgrade of the fuse board to a split circuit board and cabling and isolators for the two 3.5kw inverter units.

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Sorry Swipe...We've not answered the original question have we!!! An electrican I use sometimes charges around £300 one supply. This is around the London area though. To upgrade a fuse board would be anyone guess! If I were you...Take the details of the existing fuse board...Make...Model...and number of fuses...don't forget the extra fuses you require...Then phone round some electrical companies local too you. They might give you a quote over the phone or they might carry out a survey, either way it would be free and your get a more realistic price.

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quality

I will look at the regs to confirm this when I`m back in the office but its always been a general rule that fixed current using equipment should have fixed wiring i.e. not with a 13A plug

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I have looked into the 17 editon regarding plugs sockets connecting splits.

Here Goes:-

Unless the manufacturer specifies in the instalation instructions that a plug and socket are to be used for the electrical connection ,Then Reg 530.4 applies stating that fixed equipment have fixed wiring bla bla bla.

Although some units come with plugs fitted, So do some combination boiler and other appliances this is to enable testing during manuafacture and some cases commisioning by none electricaly competent personel.

To further re-assure my find are correct I contacted the NICEIC whom we are approved contractors of and they confirmed my query with what I have posted.

There are still grey area`s regarding this but at least this should generate some more interest.

Hope I have been helpfull for a change :)

So generally it is safe and efficient to use a plug?

Wow Eggs,

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We supply Daikin, we work in the Midlands and all our guys are Part P, Elecsa regestered domestic electrical installers.........and our prices include electrics.

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You must spent a small fortune training your fridge guys, are they all qualified sparkies as well?

I am interested in getting Part P registered but I thought you had to do a few years C&G electrical training.

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Originally Posted by R1976

Wow Eggs,



I am interested in getting Part P registered but I thought you had to do a few years C&G electrical training.

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You would be suprised how easy it is to get your part P Although if your lad have some common sense but were not just part P were are fully approved contractors (excuse the pun) also gas safe and refcom etc. but then we have been goin for 40 years.

Pm me your email and I will send you some info on getting your part P in a week with a decent centre

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quality

You would be suprised how easy it is to get your part P Although if your lad have some common sense but were not just part P were are fully approved contractors (excuse the pun) also gas safe and refcom etc. but then we have been goin for 40 years.

Pm me your email and I will send you some info on getting your part P in a week with a decent centre

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Tell me if I'm wrong...After I went on the Part P course and looked at the cost for registering each year etc etc.... I come to the conclusion that it didn't justify it unless I was carry out domestic work frequently, I know electrical companies that only have one sparkie that goes round certificating their works...Part P in a week? Are you sure?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quality

You would be suprised how easy it is to get your part P Although if your lad have some common sense but were not just part P were are fully approved contractors (excuse the pun) also gas safe and refcom etc. but then we have been goin for 40 years.

Pm me your email and I will send you some info on getting your part P in a week with a decent centre

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I sort of see where your coming from....You can take a weeks course to then become part P....You then contact the governing bodies to come out and inspect your work, then if you tick all the boxes and pay your money...Thats when you become part P registered.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteWDJ

I sort of see where your coming from....You can take a weeks course to then become part P....You then contact the governing bodies to come out and inspect your work, then if you tick all the boxes and pay your money...Thats when you become part P registered.

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you got the idea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteWDJ

I sort of see where your coming from....You can take a weeks course to then become part P....You then contact the governing bodies to come out and inspect your work, then if you tick all the boxes and pay your money...Thats when you become part P registered.

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Exactly!

It doesn't cost that much (there are only 5 of us) about £600 each from memory. The course takes 3 or 4 days depending on your grasp of electrics.
It was worth it for me as about 20% of our work is domestic.

If you are interested in a block booking for training, PM me as i may be able to sort you out with a good deal for a course in Bolton.

Cheers

eggs

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Originally Posted by eggs

Exactly!

It doesn't cost that much (there are only 5 of us) about £600 each from memory. The course takes 3 or 4 days depending on your grasp of electrics.
It was worth it for me as about 20% of our work is domestic.

If you are interested in a block booking for training, PM me as i may be able to sort you out with a good deal for a course in Bolton.

Cheers

eggs

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Thanks eggs. I carried out the course about 4 years ago. I don't remember the cost exactly but it didn't justify because I wasn't carrying out to much domestic work back then or now! If I remember, you pay for an inspector to come out each year and for registering each year, is this still the case? Also the inspector would have to look at two different installations that were in a close proximity of one another?

Regards

With the advent of the 17th Ed virtualy all domestic circuits will be 30mA RCD protected.

The only way round RCD protection is as follows.

1) Burying the cable in 'Safe Zones' at more than 50mm depth.

2) Buried in 'Safe Zones' inside earthed metalic conduit

3) Surface clipping or surface mounted conduit or trunking.

4) Using SWA supply direct from the Dis-brd.


There is nothing wrong with running Inverters on RCD protected supplies, in fact in a domestic situation you'd be hard pressed not to!

(Mine runs just fine on a 30mA RCD thanks very much!) :)

Rough costs for a 17th Ed Dis-brd upgrade plus main bonding and remedials is around £500 for a dual RCD board. A fully populated straight DB with RCBO's will add another £250-300 on top.

(Yes I am a fully qualified Sparks!) :D

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Originally Posted by sinewave

With the advent of the 17th Ed virtualy all domestic circuits will be 30mA RCD protected.

The only way round RCD protection is as follows.

1) Burying the cable in 'Safe Zones' at more than 50mm depth.

2) Buried in 'Safe Zones' inside earthed metalic conduit

3) Surface clipping or surface mounted conduit or trunking.

4) Using SWA supply direct from the Dis-brd.


There is nothing wrong with running Inverters on RCD protected supplies, in fact in a domestic situation you'd be hard pressed not to!

(Mine runs just fine on a 30mA RCD thanks very much!) :)

Rough costs for a 17th Ed Dis-brd upgrade plus main bonding and remedials is around £500 for a dual RCD board. A fully populated straight DB with RCBO's will add another £250-300 on top.

(Yes I am a fully qualified Sparks!) :D

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Straight talking concise, precise above all else correct . Now ya gonna get someone monin that this is a fridge forum not electrical :rolleyes: