How Effective is Refrigerant Legislation?

I?m doing some private research into the extent and comparative effect of refrigerant based legislation through the world and I?m looking for information either directly from Forum members, or from websites (English Language, please!), that explain how legislation is drafted and enforced (or not as the case may be) in their counties.
Being a UK resident, I?m pretty much up to speed with this country.

At present there are numerous treaties and national articles of law governing the sale, handling and use of Ozone Depleters, and Green House Gases throughout the world.

Attempts to harmonise in the EU still leaves some countries with hardly any laws in place to those where regulation of uses and even ownership of systems is closely regulated.

What I?m interested in is the ways that the following are being controlled:
CFCs
HCFCs
HFCs
HCs

Obviously the EU has its own regulations for Ozone depleters and Fluorinated gas regulations are on the way, but at the present time individual countries both in the EU and beyond have differing requirements for handling these substances.

So, my main basic questions, by country, are:

1. What restrictions or requirements are in place on buying and selling these gases in your country?
2. What requirements, either statutory or voluntary, are in place for technicians who handle these gases in their daily work repairing and charging systems in your country? Licensing? Qualifications?
3. What legal requirements are in place for the end-of-life disposal of these gases in your country?
4. Are there any new regulations or laws in preparation in your country?
5. Taxes and other fiscal penalties?
6. Finally, how well are they enforced?

The countries I am interested in are:

All EU members and accession countries (Especially accession countries).
EFTA countries. (Iceland, Norway, Switzerland).
USA
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
Japan
South Africa,
India
China

Plus any others who may be able to help.

Many thanks in advance.

Argus
________
buy glass bong

the americans use this body to regulate..

http://www.epa.gov

those on the ground will not doubt fill you in with the details..

cheers

richard

Our federal parliment are in the process of passing laws regarding the sale recovery etc of refrigerants and the like (are they through yet?).

Our federal police force will be the body used to enforce these laws, through specialy trained green units - it will be there job to find people misusing refrigerants.

had a quick check of their website but couldnt see anything there... www.afp.gov.au maybe you might...? also you might try our federal government website, i think this might be it www.australia.gov.au

passing these laws and abiding to them are great in theory, but exactly how much benefit will come out of it if only a stones throw of countries agree to ratify and enforce new green laws?

you could also try www.law.gov.au if the new laws have been passed you should be able to access them there... somewhere.

Argus

Are you doing a college course?

Is this research part of your thesis?

Thank you to all who have replied and to those who will do so soon.

No, Frank, this is not a college course or thesis, as I said, simply some private research.

What I am trying to find out is, given the basic requirements in various parts of the world governing Ozone Depleting Substances defined in the Montr?al Protocol, the state of play in Article 5 countries, and the EU regulations:

1. what national regulations and statutes are in force.
2. how effectively they are enforced
3. to what extent are they not enforced.

In particular I am interested in trends where HFCs are concerned that are leading to energy efficiency issues as an indirect result, how are they forming government policy in various countries. What fiscal sticks and carrots are used as incentives.

Have we any members in Norway who can tell us about the HFC tax there? The last I heard it was 0.17 NKr per point GWP?
Are there any other countries with taxes like this?


Argus
________
Suzuki SP600

As I understand the situation in Australia, federal legislation has been passed but all the details have been left to regulation, which are still being discussed. There appears to be general concensus except for the issue of hydrocarbons. Some want it excluded from regulation, while others believe that this would open the industry to all sorts of abuse.

In my state, the most regulated in Australia I believe, there is a registration board for the refrigeration industry. They have organised the wholesalers so that you can't get any parts without accreditation.

Assuming you don't care about the law, you can buy all the electrical, data and telephone parts you want without any problem. Illegally, you can add power and telephone outlets all over your house. However, you can't get anything to do with refrigeration without the accreditation card.

I believe that the new regulations will try to extend this to all other states.

Well it would be good for our industry as a whole to adapt to the way WA is traveling atm... as it is people who are buying a/c etc and getting them installed by backyard blokes or sparkies for cash on weekends is not really what we should be inspiring to
happen, granted it probably will still go on in some form. After attending tafe colledges and going through my apprenticeship atm to get a ticket to install/repair fridge gear i feel ripped off that someone from another trade ie plumber or sparky or the likes install a/c etc on weekends for a few extra dollars... because they make more then doing their regular job.

i dont mind if they are accredited, because obviously they have put in the time like you or i to get there ticket, i dont go and wire new houses or connect new power points or drains etc. up for weekend work... and i'm sure they would get narky if i started taking their work off them, not being licensed and all.

On another note, i heard somewhere on the grapevine they are toying with the idea of not allowing any refrigerated air products into the country containing refrigerant. Thus somewhere in the pipeline someone licensed will need to charge units installed after installation - i wonder how many compressors i will have to change after trying to compress nitro.

I think this was an idea a few years ago too, but it would help point the industry in the right direction...

Quote:

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Originally posted by Bones
Well it would be good for our industry as a whole to adapt to the way WA is traveling atm... as it is people who are buying a/c etc and getting them installed by backyard blokes or sparkies for cash on weekends is not really what we should be inspiring to
happen, granted it probably will still go on in some form. After attending tafe colledges and going through my apprenticeship atm to get a ticket to install/repair fridge gear i feel ripped off that someone from another trade ie plumber or sparky or the likes install a/c etc on weekends for a few extra dollars... because they make more then doing their regular job.

i dont mind if they are accredited, because obviously they have put in the time like you or i to get there ticket, i dont go and wire new houses or connect new power points or drains etc. up for weekend work... and i'm sure they would get narky if i started taking their work off them, not being licensed and all.

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bones

when i first started out in this industry -82- the only guy's doing a/c & fridge were a/c & fridge guy's -i didn't see the need

although if i had been as forward thinking as others trying to get regulation then i may have foreseen the situation evolving to an unregulated freeforall

all the trade mags here for plumbers sparks etc advertise a/c as a sideline money spinner

i have long since seen the light and have banged on about a corgi type registration for 10 yrs

http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/

this is a fiercely regulated -with fines to back it- gas regulation body and as soon as we get one for refrigerants the better..

however my -ex- employer is on several govenmental advisory bodies and reckons it's still about 5 yrs away..

till then
1 wages will be kept low
2 training will be nil or as near as
3 hr rate will be low
4 skilled fridge guy's will have no respect inside or outside the industry.

skillcards could be the answer if -and only if- they become a legal requirement (which is what a corgi card is.......)

cheers

richard

Quote:

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when i first started out in this industry -82- the only guy's doing a/c & fridge were a/c & fridge guy's -i didn't see the need

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What changed?

if you read my post the japanese came into the a/c market to basically 'deskill' it as far as possible. -flare connectors no vac pump etc etc.
this encouraged those outside ourindustry plumbers electricians etc to 'have a go 'n' make a few bob'

'split bashing' as it has now become known is rife and forced down the whole market margin/quality wise...(along with tesco's sainsburys and now walmart etc putting the squeeze on the bigger end...)


cheers


richard

Other than the fact that it serves our purposes and lines our pockets, what is the justification for blocking the unannointed, thus protecting us from competition?

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Originally posted by Gary
Other than the fact that it serves our purposes and lines our pockets, what is the justification for blocking the unannointed, thus protecting us from competition?

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try 2 & 4 of my post for starters

cheers

richard

Quote:

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2 training will be nil or as near as
4 skilled fridge guy's will have no respect inside or outside the industry.

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I don't disagree with either of these, but how does this justify protectionist legislation?

Call me a pessimist, but I envision a future of DIY and throwaway systems, with contractors wanting homeowners to be licensed to plug in their fridges. Unless you can show justification for such legislation, the homeowners are going to win that war.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Gary
I don't disagree with either of these, but how does this justify protectionist legislation?

Call me a pessimist, but I envision a future of DIY and throwaway systems, with contractors wanting homeowners to be licensed to plug in their fridges.

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as refrigerant is a controlled substance (UK) shouldn't those handling it be regulated to ensure that training to an agreed standard has been given and the regulations regarding safe handling and disposal are all being adhered too??

if you agree with this premise then i will continue ....


cheers

richard

Don't get me wrong. I would like to see techs given a much greater degree of respect, along with a larger paycheck, and I am certainly not opposed to training. I could paint you a rosey scenario, but that won't hold back reality. Please refrain from shooting the messenger.

Stating why we would want the legislation isn't going to get it passed. We need to state why the public would want the legislation.

Quote:

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as refrigerant is a controlled substance (UK) shouldn't those handling it be regulated to ensure that training to an agreed standard has been given and the regulations regarding safe handling and disposal are all being adhered too??

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You wouldn't like my views on these being controlled substances, but the public is on your side on this issue thus far. However, there is no particular reason to control substances that are not harmful to the environment. Future systems will contain such substances.

In any case, this covers tapping into the refrigerant side of the systems. What of self-contained and/or throwaway systems, e.g. fridges, window A/C's, etc.? Need people be trained or licensed to purchase and/or install such systems?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Gary
Don't get me wrong. I would like to see techs given a much greater degree of respect, along with a larger paycheck, and I am certainly not opposed to training. I could paint you a rosey scenario, but that won't hold back reality. Please refrain from shooting the messenger.

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i didn't think i was trying to 'shoot' anyone...

[/B][/QUOTE]
Stating why we would want the legislation isn't going to get it passed. We need to state why the public would want the legislation.
[/B][/QUOTE]

i thought i had..;-)
here (UK) gas fitting is regulated to stop 'cowboys' bodging causing explosions
hydrocarbons are an explosive gas used in fridges .......

[/B][/QUOTE]
You wouldn't like my views on these being controlled substances,
[/B][/QUOTE]

i may do-is it relevent to the fact that they are -or an opinion on wether they should be?

[/B][/QUOTE]
but the public is on your side on this issue thus far. However, there is no particular reason to control substances that are not harmful to the environment. Future systems will contain such substances.
[/B][/QUOTE]

amonia is not harmful to the enviorment but should be handled in a safe manor...do you not think??

[/B][/QUOTE]
In any case, this covers tapping into the refrigerant side of the systems. What of self-contained and/or throwaway systems, e.g. fridges, window A/C's, etc.? Need people be trained or licensed to purchase and/or install such systems? [/B][/QUOTE]


I can buy a gas boiler here but if i want to connect it to the supply i need a corgi registered fitter.

same with fridges -i can buy a fridge but to work on the 'gas side' i should be trained certified checked and approved.

good for me (worker) and good for you..(customer)


cheers

richard

i'm sorry i just can't get the hang of this green quote bit..

cheers

richard

Quote:

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Originally posted by rbartlett
i'm sorry i just can't get the hang of this green quote bit..

cheers

richard

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Richard,

You must leave away the 1st slash on the beginnig of a sentence. begin with (QUOTE) and end with (/QUOTE) but square brackets

See you

Peter

sorry peter i don't understand..


what slash ?

and end with what??

cheers


richard

Each quoted remark must have a startquote command [ quote] and an endquote command [ /quote]. The one with the slash is the endquote. :D

Quote:

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i didn't think i was trying to 'shoot' anyone...

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Nor did I. This was addressed to those in the audience who would view my remarks as an attack on the industry, simply because it isn't what they want to hear.

Quote:

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i thought i had..;-)
here (UK) gas fitting is regulated to stop 'cowboys' bodging causing explosions
hydrocarbons are an explosive gas used in fridges .......

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Okay.

Quote:

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i may do-is it relevent to the fact that they are -or an opinion on wether they should be?

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I agree, this is irrelevant to our discusssion. I threw this in because you asked if I agreed with your premise.

Quote:

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amonia is not harmful to the enviorment but should be handled in a safe manor...do you not think??

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Okay.

Quote:

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I can buy a gas boiler here but if i want to connect it to the supply i need a corgi registered fitter.

same with fridges -i can buy a fridge but to work on the 'gas side' i should be trained certified checked and approved.

good for me (worker) and good for you..(customer)

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Work on is not the same as purchase and/or install.

Anything which raises the costs, which such legislation certainly does, pushes the industry in the direction of DIY and throwaway. I don't think the Japanese are finished de-skilling, and would be surprised if everyone else didn't go that way. I may be wrong, but this is where I see it all going.

The mini-splits haven't hit the American market to the same extent as elsewhere, but I see it coming, and it wouldn't be all that difficult to de-skill central systems for that matter.

Quote:

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Originally posted by rbartlett
sorry peter i don't understand..


what slash ?

and end with what??

cheers


richard

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Sorry, edited my previous post

As usual this topic generates more heat than light.

It is evident that there are a great many disparate approaches to this issue.

From my limited research so far, it seems that in Europe there are certain countries that have pushed the envelope out as far as restrictive legislation is concerned. I am thinking particularly of Sweden where legislation to phase out HCFCS was in place before their entry to the EU and Holland where the STEK system seems to have got to grips with regulating use and abuse, to my view because the consensus of the responsible trade and users decide it was necessary and, more to the point, the Dutch government provided start-up funding. This view is controversial, I know, but I have been looking at the results fro some years now and the claims that it drove trade in bulk across the border into Germany and Belgium don?t seem to have held up.

What seems to be missing is an opinion or information from countries that are intending to restrict HFCs. Denmark, Austria, Germany etc.

Any Forum members from those countries there care to comment?
________
Torino